What Should I Have Done? What Should Father Have Done?

[BlyssfulDreamer]

Last winter I started a thread about a nun who wasn’t really a nun. She came to our TLM Oratory dressed as a nun but causing disruptions and she was forbidden (by law) to step foot on the premises again…or be arrested. She didn’t until…today. I attend daily Mass and as I was going to my car, she approached me and asked if I remembered her. I greeted her with a “Good morning” and she sated she was Sister So and So of the Sister of the Holy Cross. She said she ahd been to a sale and had gotten a couple of skirts and wanted for me to have them. I only wear pants to Mass…that is a whole other thread. I told her “Thank you, but I only wear pants, but I appreciated the thoughfulness.” As I was walking around my car to go to the drivers door she positioned herself in front of the door where I could not enter. She then began lecturing me on what the scriptures say about women wearing pants and I asked her to move and she wouldn’t. She told me I was a sinner for wearing pants and that going to Mass daily and receiving the Eucharist was not going to save me. To make a long story short, I told her I was going to talk to the Father and went back to the Church. The groundskeeper who also attends the oratory(and was familiar with her) was there and I told them about what was going on. The Father said that indeed she is not a real Sister and had mental problems. It was obvious he was not going to speak to her and the groundskeeper offered to walk me to my car. Now, I might also add, this woman is probably a good 15 years my junior and I am 60 and also am disabled, so her behavior caused me a little bit of anxiety.

Am I wrong to feel that the priest should have spoken with her and told her to not accost associates as they arrive or leave church? Should he have taken this incident more seriously? Should I have called the police when she refused to move front in front of my car door? I was so hurt and upset cried all the way home. What are your thoughts on this very strange situation?

Thank you.

 

[jmcrae]

She then began lecturing me on what the scriptures say about women wearing pants …

The Scriptures actually make no mention of pants, as such.

They tell us that we are not to wear men’s clothing, but I assume you buy your pants in the ladies’ section, for a better fit.

I don’t know if it’s a good idea to engage her on the issue (and in my case, I would just avoid speaking to her at all - I would not even say “Good morning” to her), but if you find that you want to, just ask her where in the Bible it says that a lady cannot wear ladies’ pants.

Father may have been having a bad day, or he may have thought that getting involved would just make things worse for you - I don’t know why he didn’t help you. I’m glad the groundskeeper was there to look out for you.

Maybe you could speak to other members of the parish and have them walk with you out to the parking lot, so that she would have to confront a large group all at once, instead of picking on just one person at a time.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Perhaps you should discuss this with your priest. You will not be the only one who is disturbed by this, and I would imagine your priest feels the same way. This woman sounds very strange; she sounds like she suffers from some form of mental illness.

I would ask your priest to see if he can do anything to keep this woman away from Church property on the grounds of harassment. You should not have to go through the ordeal of being confronted after Mass.

I would also advise you to consider writing to your Bishop about this woman. I think she could mislead people into believing she is actually a nun; and this could be harmful to the faith of some people, especially if she begins preaching to them.

 

[EasterJoy]

Talk to your pastor again about either arranging for the groundskeeper to be present as the faithful return to their cars after Masses or notifying the police that the woman has violated her restraining order. He may not realize that there has been a physical escalation in this woman’s confrontations with parishioners, but he may also have received advice that direct confrontation with clergy might encourage her delusions. You might be safer if he arranges for your protection without getting directly involved. In any case, make sure he has all the facts. A formal report to the police of the incident and all similar incidents that took place after the restraining order was issued may also be needed, if the police are going to be called upon for protection.

Your pastor probably also doesn’t realize how threatened you felt. Let him know.

 

[adstrinity]

If she was not allowed on the premises again, why wasn’t she arrested? She violated that. She probably would have viewed herself as a martyr with a perverse satisfaction and pride in knowing she must be getting to the Church, (look, they have to bring in the Centurians because they know I proclaim the Gospel!) but, at least she wouldn’t be able to target you while she’s in jail…or other people once she’s been booked a few times. Of course, if she has other people like her, that may be a problem, but, do not hesitate to call the police the next time.

That would be the sensible approach, I think. …Should you want sensationalist, bring holy water with you, should she accost you again, grab it, open it, and make the sign of the cross at her screaming, “THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!” but, again, this would be sensationalistic and uncharitable. It may stun her, but, you don’t want to get yourself worked up.

If you have a cell phone, call the police the next time, not in front of her, should she try to grab it or know what you are doing. I would say check before you leave the church if she is around. I am sorry to have to recommend this because it’s like living in fear and having your life controlled by this woman (which, again, she will garner that she must be getting to you and can bring you to Christ). If you do not have a cell phone, go back inside and call the police and inform them of the situation.

The police are here for a reason. That restraining order was taken out for a reason. If somebody is breaking the law, do not hesitate to use the law to get them in order. Please do not hesitate to ask to use the phone to call the police.

 

[Tina_in_Ashburn]

“she was forbidden (by law) to step foot on the premises again…or be arrested. She didn’t until…today.”

This sounds like the anti-harrassment order or peace bond had run out and the nut knew it.

There is no point in engaging in conversation with unstable people like this. Ignore her or nod nicely or whatever, just get in your car and go. Don’t take personally what she is saying - this person is nuts and clearly doesn’t know how to interact in a normal way with people.

I imagine the priest did nothing because he may be simply planning to request another peace bond for this woman which will take care of the situation for another length of time.

If you want to know about pants, skirts, and chaste clothing talk with someone sensible about it. Disregard the rantings of this nut.

 

[giuseppeTO]

I wouldn’t expect the priest to deal with her. The pants are irrelevant. You should walk back to the rectory and use their phone and call the police. Better yet, if you have one, take out your cell phone and dial 911 while she is standing there.

If she felt she needed to make a point about women wearing pants to church, she need only show it by example. Going any further is a sin against charity.

 

[bobzills]

Last winter I started a thread about a nun who wasn’t really a nun. She came to our TLM Oratory dressed as a nun but causing disruptions and she was forbidden (by law) to step foot on the premises again…or be arrested. She didn’t until…today. I attend daily Mass and as I was going to my car, she approached me and asked if I remembered her. I greeted her with a “Good morning” and she sated she was Sister So and So of the Sister of the Holy Cross. She said she ahd been to a sale and had gotten a couple of skirts and wanted for me to have them. I only wear pants to Mass…that is a whole other thread. I told her “Thank you, but I only wear pants, but I appreciated the thoughfulness.” As I was walking around my car to go to the drivers door she positioned herself in front of the door where I could not enter. She then began lecturing me on what the scriptures say about women wearing pants and I asked her to move and she wouldn’t. She told me I was a sinner for wearing pants and that going to Mass daily and receiving the Eucharist was not going to save me. To make a long story short, I told her I was going to talk to the Father and went back to the Church. The groundskeeper who also attends the oratory(and was familiar with her) was there and I told them about what was going on. The Father said that indeed she is not a real Sister and had mental problems. It was obvious he was not going to speak to her and the groundskeeper offered to walk me to my car. Now, I might also add, this woman is probably a good 15 years my junior and I am 60 and also am disabled, so her behavior caused me a little bit of anxiety.

Am I wrong to feel that the priest should have spoken with her and told her to not accost associates as they arrive or leave church? Should he have taken this incident more seriously? Should I have called the police when she refused to move front in front of my car door? I was so hurt and upset cried all the way home. What are your thoughts on this very strange situation?

Thank you.

Actually, in this case, my guess is that Sister was right and women should not wear pants. You might want to brush up a bit on Scriptures and why it is wrong for women to wear pants, especially to Church. Here is a site that you can consult:
lffa-ollmpc.com/standards.htm
As Father points out, modesty in dress excludes women from wearing “pants, slacks, culottes, jeans, shorts and such, as they have been proven to be men’s attire, and harmfull for women and society at large, and against God’s command in Deut. 22:5.”

 

[Like]

Actually, in this case, my guess is that Sister was right and women should not wear pants. You might want to brush up a bit on Scriptures and why it is wrong for women to wear pants, especially to Church. Here is a site that you can consult:
lffa-ollmpc.com/standards.htm
As Father points out, modesty in dress excludes women from wearing “pants, slacks, culottes, jeans, shorts and such, as they have been proven to be men’s attire, and harmfull for women and society at large, and against God’s command in Deut. 22:5.”

Bob, give us a break! I can’t believe any one here would have responded as such!

BlyssfulDreamer, IMHO, you did nothing wrong here, much less a sin!

I agree with what the others have said & would add that you should be very careful concerning this woman. Being ex-law enforcement, the actions of this woman should be taken seriously and should be reported to the police. Police knowing this happened should be willing to be present around the time of ending of Mass for a few days.

Also, you do need to talk with your priest so that he should take this woman serious too.
God bless

 

[bobzills]

Bob, give us a break! I can’t believe any one here would have responded as such!

In addition to Father Kunkel and his site we have other Catholics who believe it is wrong for women to wear pants, especially to Church. And we have the words of Scripture:
“A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.” (Deut 22:5).
We have read that Sain Padre Pio refused to hear the confession of women who wore pants.
Pleass see:
Proper Dress and Behavior for Catholic Women:
"Women should not dress or act like men, for this is an abomination in God’s eyes. God created the human race with two genders, intending each to have his and her proper place in Creation. Men and women are not meant to behave or dress the same manner. Part of the beauty of the human race is found in the differences between men and women. "
"Women should wear skirts and dresses; they should not generally wear pants (although there may be some exception for certain sports, certain types of work, etc). "
catholicplanet.com/women/dress.htm

 

[Like]

In addition to Father Kunkel and his site we have other Catholics who believe it is wrong for women to wear pants, especially to Church. And we have the words of Scripture:
“A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.” (Deut 22:5).
We have read that Saint Padre Pio refused to hear the confession of women who wore pants.
Please see:
Proper Dress and Behavior for Catholic Women:
"Women should not dress or act like men, for this is an abomination in God’s eyes. God created the human race with two genders, intending each to have his and her proper place in Creation. Men and women are not meant to behave or dress the same manner. Part of the beauty of the human race is found in the differences between men and women. "
"Women should wear skirts and dresses; they should not generally wear pants (although there may be some exception for certain sports, certain types of work, etc). "
catholicplanet.com/women/dress.htm

Bob, don’t you think you could at least wait until you know what type of pants the lady (OP) was wearing? If she was wearing a pair of jeans or men’s clothing then maybe I might agree with you.

But some how I just can’t picture a 60 year old lady who attends daily Mass being disgraceful to our Lord. And don’t you think quoting Scripture from the Old Testament is reaching back a bit far for this sort of thing? Please don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying that the Old Testament is not in force here, but you know, even in the days when our Lord walked among us, both men and women worn very similar clothing.

I haven’t seen the Catholic Planet site before but, it does look quite nice for a Catholic lay website. But I did notice it’s disclaimer “Please note that most of my theology writings are speculative, rather than dogmatic.
Also, many of the ideas expressed on this site are a matter of pious disagreement among faithful Catholics”. Now personaly, I would rather see women in Mass wearing dresses and head coverings, however, my wife is all most 70 & is confined to a wheelchair & does wear ladies slacks but, wears a veil.

I am sorry and apologist for my choice of words starting off in my 1st. post. That was not charitable:blush:

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

Actually, in this case, my guess is that Sister was right and women should not wear pants. You might want to brush up a bit on Scriptures and why it is wrong for women to wear pants, especially to Church. Here is a site that you can consult:
lffa-ollmpc.com/standards.htm
As Father points out, modesty in dress excludes women from wearing “pants, slacks, culottes, jeans, shorts and such, as they have been proven to be men’s attire, and harmfull for women and society at large, and against God’s command in Deut. 22:5.”

Actually bobzills…you didn’t read the entire text of my OP…did you? The “Sister” isn’t really a nun and in fact is wearing a nun’s habit…and impersonating one. The concern over my wearing pants is forweshadowed by her blatant violation of the law and harrassment of a person on private property. Whether I wear pants or a dress does not give ANYONE the right to harrass a person and violate the law. This “nun” has a restraining order against her…need I say more?

Thank you for responding however…

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

Bob, don’t you think you could at least wait until you know what type of pants the lady (OP) was wearing? If she was wearing a pair of jeans or men’s clothing then maybe I might agree with you.

But some how I just can’t picture a 60 year old lady who attends daily Mass being disgraceful to our Lord. And don’t you think quoting Scripture from the Old Testament is reaching back a bit far for this sort of thing? Please don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying that the Old Testament is not in force here, but you know, even in the days when our Lord walked among us, both men and women worn very similar clothing. QUOTE]

I wear dress pants to Mass…always wear a veil and always are dressed in clothing as if I were going to a Sunday Mass. Everyone at the TLM dresses as if they are going to a Sunday Mass…very respectful. I am no different because I wear pants. I don’t even own a pair of jeans…LOL

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

In addition to Father Kunkel and his site we have other Catholics who believe it is wrong for women to wear pants, especially to Church. And we have the words of Scripture:
“A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.” (Deut 22:5).
We have read that Sain Padre Pio refused to hear the confession of women who wore pants.
Pleass see:
Proper Dress and Behavior for Catholic Women:
"Women should not dress or act like men, for this is an abomination in God’s eyes. God created the human race with two genders, intending each to have his and her proper place in Creation. Men and women are not meant to behave or dress the same manner. Part of the beauty of the human race is found in the differences between men and women. "
"Women should wear skirts and dresses; they should not generally wear pants (although there may be some exception for certain sports, certain types of work, etc). "
catholicplanet.com/women/dress.htm

I was really hoping this would not turn into another of those “wear pants-don’t wear” pants threads…but I see it has. I guess that is the best you can do?

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

I truly appreciate everyone’s response and was pleasantly surprised when the “Sister” was not there today. Yesterday, I called the Chancery and spoke to the Chancellor who said I should write a letter detailing the incident and send it to the priest. That would document the incident for future reference, since she has already had a restraining order. I agree with Tina that after 6 months, the order might now be up and that is why the lady was so confrontational. They might want to consider getting another one.

I also have my cell phone and will use it to call police the next time if she were to approach me. I am firm in not letting her keep me from the highlight of my day…going to Mass and I will not let her dictate my clothing.

Thanks from the bottom of my heart to those of you who responded with such kindness and clarity. God Bless you all.

 

[Brenda_V]

Blyssful - I am happy to see that you have a solution to your concern!

Indeed, keep praying for this woman as she definitely has a problem. We had someone similar at our Parish. She ended up hitting someone in my presence and it could have been my daughter had she been closer, all because of Girl altar servers! Years ago she had told me to “get that child out of here” when it was before Mass and in a quiet, yet 2 year old high pitched voice my daughter was singing “I love Jesus”. We just moved pews so we wouldn’t be near her to disturb her.

These people exist and they need our prayers. The person I mentioned above was banned from church as well - you can’t go assaulting those around you because you are disturbed by what is happening!

Brenda V.

 

[Jsmith17]

That would be the sensible approach, I think. …Should you want sensationalist, bring holy water with you, should she accost you again, grab it, open it, and make the sign of the cross at her screaming, “THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!”

I’m rather fond of this option.

 

[flameburns623]

As a security officer in a large metropolitan area, and as a Christian, I want to make several oobservations here:

1. The woman in the nun’s habit is entitled to wear what she chooses. Irrespective of whether she belongs to a full-time religious order or not. She may in fact belong to an approved or unapproved 'Tertiary type order which permits or encourages such garb. The order may not even be a Catholic one in the strict sense. Her choice of clothing is irrelevant to the issue.
2. Likewise the wearing of a pantsuit or a dress by the OP is also not relevant to the issue. It may or may not be ‘traditional’ and the traditionalist parish the woman attends may have a recommended dress code for women, but so long as the OP has not been hherself removed from the property for a violation of that dress code, it doesn’t really matter. The faux-nun has as much right as anyone to mention any publicly-posted code that the OP might be violating, but beyond a simple mention, the subject should have been referred to the local ordinary for further action.
3. The real issue, therefore is that the false nun became iintimidating towards the OP. Given that the false nun is known to in fact have mental health issues, the priest probably did what he could: he had the caretaker keep an eye on the OP. The later, belated advice was also good: ask the OP to write a letter to help build ddocumentation Make it short, make it unemotional, make it strictly descriptive of the incident (“Just the facts, Ma’am”). DO point out that you felt threatened, and be sure you explain, simply and ccalmly WHY you felt so. Beyond that, if you are accosted again or see someone else accosted–DO call the police. Even if the order of protection or whatever has expired, the police will react more decisively knowing that one has been in force iIn the past.
4. Beyond this–you owe the woman Christian charity in NOT doing anything to exacerbate her condition. Don’t yell at her, don’t wave the sign of the Cross at her, don’t inflame her in any way. If in fact she consistently behaves well while at the Church, it wouldn’t be a terrible thing to express appreciation for that–but only if you’re certain it won’t cause her to begin acting-out again. Otherwise, just pray for her and keep a safe distance.

 

[Nino]

Yes,the property is private and if someone is abusing it and harrassing they must be removed .This story reminds me.re: fake nuns…a few years back at a large parish meeting a visiting ‘nun’ delivered a presentation on new changes in the church and how wonderful it will be for all concerned…she was soooo charming,a vistor as I recall from a Southern parish,(I am from New York) well,several women in the audience during the question and answer period just gushed and thru teary eye adulation…asked her to transfer up here etc etc…well something just was not right with her whole persona…so after some 10 min.of smiles and compliments.I asked her this " Sister,Do you believe that Jesus was the Son of God?!..she was taken aback and before she could compose hereself revealed “No,I dont!” then the pastor jumped up and said “what,and …and do you believe…” from that point on he exposed her for what she was…a demon in a modified habit…charming,sweet and so poised…for a while anyway…during the moments when our pastor…now rip…was exposing her non-belief I just up and silently walked out the rear door…Hi Ho Silver…away…(.PS.I always recite a silent Hail Mary at these confrontations…before I speak so any good that happens is not from me,dont worry I realize that…)

 

[Grandpop]

Blysseful,

I have great sympathy for the mentally ill, as I’m sure you certainly do. We do need to protect ourselves from their faulty reasoning, though, if they become any immediate threat to our life or safety. Their minds may be childlike, but they are fully grown adults and capable of real injury.

You seemed to not immediately recognize her problem, which can be a startling revelation halfway through a conversation. Since the woman now saw you as her “friend” of sorts, she took more chances than she would have, had you told her to “get outta here”.Now you are caught in an emotional mixture of compassion and fear…not unlike a confrontation with a strange dog. You know you can’t reason with it, so you now need to be more clever. Of course we can never know what may trigger an outburst.

The priest was wrong in dismissing her so lightly as “harmless”, and asking you to tolerate this confrontational woman. It sounds perfectly Christian, but let’s be practical. I would go as far as carrying an umbrella or a stick to “mockingly” threaten her the next time, saying you were God’s avenger…but that may just be mean. You do not want to be afraid to attend Mass do you? This woman should be brought to the Pastor’s FULL attention, and the poor thing should be dealt with as one of God’s children, but firmly.