What should I tell my priest?

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Bohm_Bawerk said:
A better example perhaps would be Bertrand Russell’s “cosmic teapot” ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_teapot ), a tongue-in-cheek analogy that Russell used to show the non-existence of God. Ultimately, no one can disprove the “cosmic teapot” because it is unfalsifiable. And by virtue of it being unfalsifiable, many philosophers such as Karl Popper would regard believing in it as spurious.

To claim that the Cosmological Argument is proof of God’s existence overlooks the fact that there are a multitude of atheistic arguments refuting it. We can produce the maxim that for every theistic argument, there is an equal and opposite atheistic argument to refute it. Inevitably, the theist always has to retreat back to faith, for Scripture says itself: “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.” (Hebrews 11:1).
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The problem with the teapot is that it ridicules the idea of a creator as an argument, and who then wants to be seen attempting to defend the ridiculous, the reasoning probably goes. It is not any argument at all.
The problem for atheists has always been their stance that there is no creator, despite the fact that they could not utter these words if they had not been created. One of the greatest proofs and the obvious starting point for thought about a creator is the existence of creation.
Everything you see proves the creator exists.
Motives behind some thinkers arguments are also worth considering if you are considering following somebody else through life. Many, I’m sure, popular-among-atheists philosophers are probably products of the 20th century war years. When europe was a charred wasteland and human life may have seemed to have lost something of its value and purpose, thinkers arose who might have been basically depressed people, disillusioned. Whatever about the morals and world view points of the thinkers, it would be preferable to know exactly who it is you are following.
Catholic Saints are attractive for this reason. Their lives were probably morally sound and their outlook on life optimistic, hopeful, cheerful and appreciative of creation, as a general rule .
 
I appreciate you posting here because it gives this forum a chance to let the Spirit work but have you asked yourself why you would come to these forums and let it be known you are an atheist? In your heart are you struggling with this choice?

As for not believing in God can you please provide your reasons? Spain you were a God loving young person and upon return to the US you become a young loving atheist. What changed??

Personally, I struggle with faith as well. I often doubt and question my faith. I have even thought that maybe the Catholic church has skewed what Jesus had wanted, we are human after all. I question the motive of Paul, Jesus never said to create a new church, etc. Then I look at the church history and see the saints incorruptible from the 1400’s, the miracles of Fatima caught by the NYTimes, the philosophy of Christ in the gospels and faith returns. I have also read Stroebl’s books, The Case for Christ and The case for a Creator. The one argument that stuck with me is the law of Physics, you can’t have something from nothing and according to the big bangers there was nothing and then boom. You can’t explain away these things and so here I am on my path trying to fine my way.
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
I’ve missed Mass for several weeks since I’ve come back from the World Youth Day as I’m an atheist and I no longer believe in God. I was just told that my priest wants me to give him a call.

I’m incredibly, incredibly worried. What should I tell my priest? He was expecting more from me :(. I may call him tomorrow, but to say to him up-front that I’m an atheist is probably not a good idea. I’m really confused…please help.
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You’ve been atheist before, you’ve taken away any title whatsoever for periods of time, then you’ve been “devout” Catholic for a little while and for now, you’re back to being atheist. Now you’re in the position of considering being an atheist who is “being there” in the Catholic Church.

Maybe you should be honest with yourself and your priest. You’re obviously not atheist, and it’s doubtful you were a devout Catholic.

Be honest with the priest and tell him you’re all over the place.
 
Bohm,

I get the feeling you’re going through a serious crisis in your life.

You describe yourself as a former Catholic, yet post consistently on a Catholic website to advance atheist arguments. You describe yourself as someone who people thought was holy and going to become a priest and who enjoyed WYD, you say you admire the ethics of Catholicism, but say you have proof that God does not exist, that you were “conned” into believing in God, and that you are so certain that God does not exist, that you would deny it even if given proof. You describe “something” that happened after you returned from WYD that forever changed your feelings about God, after a year-long feeling that you were losing your faith. You’ve described feelings of depression and thoughts of suicide (and if you still feel those, GET SOME HELP, call 1-800-273-TALK (8255) for the national suicide hotline or get to an emergency room!) after your decision to become an atheist.

Despite your claims of permanent, irrevocable conversion to atheism, you post questions on a daily basis to an on-line community of believers, alternately asking for advice on how to deal with your “conversion,” such as what to tell your priest, and then posting arguments against their beliefs or the possibility of God.

What’s going on? You’re asking advice on life decisions from people whose fundamental beliefs you discredit, and whom you’re attempting to evangelize (or de-evangelize) from a belief in God. Why do you even care what we (a group of people you feel are fundamentally in error) think?

You seem like an intelligent young man who is going through a life crisis, and probably should talk to a priest, therapist, health worker, or someone else who has your best interests at heart.

But can I suggest you consider that while this is a forum open to all, theist or atheist, it’s more than a little insulting to ask people for personal advice while discounting their closest-held beliefs? It’s like having a friend insult your taste in clothing while asking to borrow your sport-jacket.

Typically, atheists who say they have lost their faith have done so because 1) They have identified a personal behavior or attraction they cannot reconcile with Christian Faith, so they look for reasons to jettison it; 2) They feel betrayed by someone they associate strongly with their Faith, and so jettison the whole of Christian dogma; or 3) They feel that they were owed something by God which they did not receive, and they wanted it so much that they feel they must discount the entire structure of belief. These 3 features tend to be associated with adolescence, or delayed adolescence, in most new (or New) atheists. Is there something else going on? Were the London riots a precipitating event for your atheism?

In your posts that I have read, you keep skirting around the issue of this big event that finally caused you to lose faith. If you feel this it too personal to discuss or you just want to preserve what you have constructed as a mystery around this event, fine. But, since you seem to value the opinion of at least some of the posters on this thread (you possibly do not include me in that group), if you care to get it out in the open and discuss it I’m sure people would be willing to offer you whatever help or advice they can, for what it’s worth from a bunch of hick Catholics.
 
I think you should consider you could be wrong in your conclusions and discuss the reasons for your atheism with your Priest.

I think it was you who mentioned you were worried about science finding the ‘God particle’, which demonstrates at least some misunderstanding of what the Church teaches.

The church doesn’t teach that God is found in the gaps of scientific knowledge. Science simply explains the natural laws/ or processes God has used in creation.
 
I think that some humility is in order here. Realise how from a materilistic point of view, your cosmological insignificance and why, from a qualitative point of view, although our brains might be bigger, we are really no wiser than chimps when it comes to understanding the big questions of existence. I came to Christianity from questioning my atheism using its own limitations and I’m kind of glad that God has put proof of his own existance out of bounds for everybody. Otherwise it would be discrimination, no?

One day I passed a beautifully constructed S-Class Merc, and I wondered about all the organisation and labour, not to mind the dangers in mining, extraction and moulding the metals, and I realised that all of it was simply the result of two things: “community” and “tradition”. 10,000 babies dropped on a deserted island, and fed by animals, all endowed with the intellectual capabilities of Einstein or Newton would never construct it. Maybe not even a hundred generations of their decendents. Without tradition and community it would be no language and nothing. In fact tradition which passes on languages and skills was the prime mover that helped community, so tradition can be claimed to be the main key! In one sense, I can claim that my tradition, which is catholic, is the best because it is what has survived and prospered right now. Just like evolutionary natural selection has resulted in speicies perfectly adapted to their environment, then our tradition resulted in among other things the cooperation and technology to do great things, such as building a mercedes. A great part of that tradition is societies which were based on families and believing in God, and so any one who willfully tries to destroy that tradition (as people did in the 20th century) will pay a heavy price. I believe in the Church I believe in God, because without a society that believed in those things I know almost certainly that I wouldnt exist - thats undeniable.

So although I have dark nights of the soul, lack faith nearly all the time, I also have to back the “evolutionary” winner, and not the mutant newcomer. I know with resignation that I will never be able to understand what the truth is - that is the great folly of the atheists - and so I nervously allow myslef to be guided by the precpets of my fathers, that served them so well.
Humans really do need revelation - that too is obvious. Science can tell us that water boils in kettle because the water molecules have energy applied to them exciting them etc, but only religion can tell us that the water is boiling because I want to have tea. To deny this is really putting yourself on a fools errand. I use to worship Dawkins for his integrity in seraching for the pure truth. Now I think that St.Paul prophesied about his kind with his “wise fools” remark! So true and so sad.

So tell your priest that you need him to pray for your pride and folly. Meanwhile follow the faith and live the lie until it transforms itself back into the truth. All is vanity anyway. Many people who devote themselves to simply enjoying this life become more egocentric and invevitably become unhappy anyway. Live the christian life and God will reward you with faith.

I will pray for you.

*See how the faithful city
has become a prostitute!
She once was full of justice;
righteousness used to dwell in her—
but now murderers!
22 Your silver has become dross,
your choice wine is diluted with water.
23 Your rulers are rebels,
partners with thieves;
they all love bribes
and chase after gifts.
They do not defend the cause of the fatherless;
the widow’s case does not come before them.

24 Therefore the Lord, the LORD Almighty,
the Mighty One of Israel, declares:
“Ah! I will vent my wrath on my foes
and avenge myself on my enemies.
25 I will turn my hand against you;**
I will thoroughly purge away your dross
and remove all your impurities.
26 I will restore your leaders as in days of old,
your rulers as at the beginning.
Afterward you will be called
the City of Righteousness,
the Faithful City.” **
The Prophet Isaiah

“Hail Mary Full of Grace The Lord is with Thee”
“Blessed are you among all woman and Blessed is the Fruit of thy womb” ’ Jesus
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei
Ora pro nobis
Nunc en et hora mortis nostrae
Amen (I believe) Amen!*
 
Hello Bohm, hope all is well.
Bohm_Bawerk said:
To claim that the Cosmological Argument is proof of God’s existence overlooks the fact that there are a multitude of atheistic arguments refuting it. We can produce the maxim that for every theistic argument, there is an equal and opposite atheistic argument to refute it. Inevitably, the theist always has to retreat back to faith, for Scripture says itself: “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.” (Hebrews 11:1).
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That’s giving to much to the atheistic returns of the cosmological suggestions of God’s existence. Though they are strong replies to arguments from (just to name two) St. Aquinas or Peter Kreeft but they do not refute in means of defeat, but merely provide a counter. Be it that as theists the root is faith, it is not a “fall back” as atheists love to point out. But more importantly those that profess to believe without proof, though have very strong suggestions of His existence, are gifted with faith. This week’s Saints Alive episode of St. Augustine touched on the very subject, and I applaud them for using this one quote that you might like Bohm, "…Therefore do not seek to understand in order to believe, but believe that thou mayest understand; since, “except ye believe, ye shall not understand.”

You wrote on your own page “I regret for having searched for God . So much time of my life wasted. My heart is full of sorrow and full of anguish, as if a dagger was thrusted straight through it. I beg, and I mean this ever so deeply, for anyone who is searching for God, to not bother wasting their time (unless dealing with addiction problems). It really isn’t worth it. I wish I could turn the clock back :’(”

And at the same time wrote here on this very thread:

“Not necessarily, because some people find believing in God makes them lead more moral lives. Even Richard Dawkins himself said to Bill O’Reilly in an interview on Fox News that if believing in God made him live a more fulfilling life, then he can’t blame him for that. The eminent philosopher Bertrand Russell, in a short article of his remarked that simply because certain people may live a more moral life with belief in God does not necessarily prove the objective existence of God. I can say personally, that I follow a lot of Catholic teachings (e.g. anti-abortion, subsidiarity, etc), because I recognize without such rules in place, society can quickly turn into moral anarchy. And in fact, it has. If there is anything the World Youth Day has taught me, is that I would rather live in Catholic Spain than Secular here. But in and of itself, that isn’t a proof of God’s existence.”

I whole heartily believe the former statement is not what you truly believe, no I’m not trying to draw a belief in God from you by saying this. But I think you see the betterment of people in belief of God as it shapes society and the person into an ideal model of what we ought to be. I have a dare for you, take this understanding to it’s ultimate end and believe that you may believe prior to understanding why there is belief. BUT not for your own self, believe for others so that they may follow your example and believe themselves. Perhaps if I ever struggle with belief, maybe I’ll have you to look up to … or not, but I hope you find faith for others.

You say “There has to be more to life than this”, offer it up 😉

To your OP: Personally I would tell him the truth, he’ll be more offended that you didn’t tell him the truth to begin with, and probably will respect your honesty if your upfront. Who knows, perhaps it may develop something that you’re looking for.
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
…To claim that the Cosmological Argument is proof of God’s existence overlooks the fact that there are a multitude of atheistic arguments refuting it. We can produce the maxim that for every theistic argument, there is an equal and opposite atheistic argument to refute it. Inevitably, the theist always has to retreat back to faith, for Scripture says itself: “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.” (Hebrews 11:1).
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It will never to cease to amaze me that intelligent people waste a lot of their time trying to argue against the existence of God when it is already known that we cannot really prove His existence but that we have multiple reasons to believe in Him. It amazes me that the same people believe in so many things in their lives when they have even less reasons to believe in those but they accept them anyway because someone else told them that they are real. I would say that an overwhelming majority of people in this world do not have any reason (using the standards that they use for God) to believe that their own mothers are their true mothers but the still call them mommy!

When argumentation becomes mental masturbation, it takes away the dignity of human beings and I firmly believe that makes them stupid too (please understand that here I am not talking about you at all). If you look at today’s philosopher you will see how the smart ones quickly move away from the big general questions that will require all their lives just to establish some basic definitions.

My suggestion is to stop thinking about all this atheist garbage because, as someone else mentioned before, an intelligent person like you would not fall into such a pseudo-intellectual trap. Be intellectually honest with yourself, accept the fact that you will not know until you die. Now you have to take a risk like you take risks for everything else in your life, just look at the pros and cons and make your bet. As a scientist when I do not know what are the chances of being right or wrong I always bet on the biggest reward. I have been living most my life according to this method, before as a confused agnostic and now as a Christian, and until now it proved itself quite a successful method.

I remember that as a graduate student during my PhD thesis I was questioning everything so much that at one point my adviser told me “Cristiano at one point you have to believe in something” and so I listened to him, published a few papers and got my degree. If you will become a scientist and find yourself to review someone’s else papers for publication you will just have to realize that most of the scientific publications are based on reason and not on proof.

Just call your priest and talk to him, it will help you to be honest with yourself. Keep going to Mass even if you think that you do not believe in God but you believe in doing good. Do not waste time listening to people claiming that you have to be consistent with all your actions, people can change their minds. I would be quite suspicious of someone that claims to never had a change of mind on something, I would call him a liar or a brain dead idiot.
 
Hi Bohm Bawerk.

We each suffer attacks against our faith, some worse then others.
Your heart is the source of these attacks.
Love increases our faith and each of us have a need for love and to be loved.
Guard your heart.
You have a desire to love and be loved. Just that, confirms your desire for God, for God is Love.
 
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