What should I think about Intelligent Design?

  • Thread starter Thread starter snarflemike
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
clem456 said:
I understand your point 100%. God is unchangeable and always at the center of everything. Science is fallible to one degree or another.

Some facts are easily observable, or provable. The sun comes up on the east horizon for instance.
Similarly, the geologic time-table is very well documented and the science is really beyond question, give or take a few million years.
None of this detracts from God’s plan (absurd, nothing detracts from God), our understanding of the world around us simply develops over time. Does it change God for us to understand that the 7 days of Genesis is really 4.5 billion years?
Click to expand...
It’s currently the year 5773 according to the Hebrew calendar.

Peace,
Ed
 
Ion said:
What makes you think the scientist are not going to change their opinions in 20-30 years?
Click to expand...
Not following you. The calendar thing is somewhat arbitrary. It’s not really a matter of science. It’s more like pick a date and go.
 
clem456 said:
Not following you. The calendar thing is somewhat arbitrary. It’s not really a matter of science. It’s more like pick a date and go.
Click to expand...
That’s really what you do with science…No time to wait for the ultimate scientific truth.
 
rossum said:
You are being lied to by creationist websites. Evolution is good science.

False. You are being lied to again by those creationist websites. When I use Google Scholar (scholar.google.com/) to search for “evolution”, I get 3,930,000 hits. When I search for “intelligent design” I get 34,900 hits.

I would go on for longer, but there is currently a moratorium on the discussion of evolution.

Why do you believe websites that lie to you?

rossum
Click to expand...
All natural science disciplines can be good science. The actual problem is with interpretations of science research which assume an universal which is not warranted by the presented evidence.
 
Ion said:
That’s really what you do with science…No time to wait for the ultimate scientific truth.
Click to expand...
No, It’s not what we do with science. 🤷

We have reason. Reason is not God, but it is given to us as a gift. Good use of it is, well, good.
 
be careful this talk may get into the evolution debate which is forbidden on this site. The arguments I have heard get very heated and the amends don’t like it. So be careful in discussing this topic.

Check out John Haught on this topic, I don’t know if he deals directly with ID as a may focus of a book but I know he adresses them.

amazon.com/John-F.-Haught/e/B001IGHJ2C

But the Catholic Church has not confirmed or denied ID, a Catholic can be in full communion with the Church even if he believes in ID, same with a Catholic who believes in evolution, young earth creationism, etc. There has been no dogmatical statement made by anyone in the Church who has made a scientific explanation morally bound to believe. I believe it will never happen.
 
jonathan_hili said:
Fundamentalists are a group of Christians in the US (I think primarily the southern states) who got their name from a book of edited essays called The Fundamentals, published in the early 20th century. The book basically contained a lot of traditional Christian doctrine and held these fundamental teachings as true, e.g. the literal resurrection of Christ, the Fall, etc., when they were being challenged by other Christian circles. I think, if I remember rightly, the essays came out of Princeton Theological Seminary.

These days, Fundamentalists get a bad rap for being extremely conservative, young earth creationists, seemingly narrow-minded and literalistic in theological matters, and so on.

I don’t know any Fundamentalists so really can’t say. I don’t think they like Catholics much, though!

Karl Keating wrote the classic text combating Fundamentalism: Catholicism And Fundamentalism.
Click to expand...
I’ll say this fundamentalism is a attitude that you will always believe what you believe no matter what evidence is presented to you. I don’t think its a good idea to only put Protestants under the fundamentalist branch, there can be fundamentalist Christians, atheists, Jews Muslims and so on and so forth.
 
one other thing I hold to this view

Theology Philsophy and Science are three different subsets of knowledge. What theology explains can’t be explained by philosophy and science, and theology can’t describe philosophy and science.

Philosophy can explain things that science and theology can’t and it can’t describe scientific things but can explain theological things.

Science can explain things that philosophy and theology can’t and lots it can’t, BUT science can never explain philosophical things or theological things. When atheists like Hawkins and the like say that science disproves God they are going from being scientist to being philosophers.

Don’t try to use science to prove the existence of God theology and Philosophy can do that.

Many great Catholic thinkers have said that don’t make scientific arguments for the existence of God, if one day the scientific argument is disprove then you have lost believers. Let science deal with science and theology deal with theology don’t mix the two and try and use science to explain God or Theology to explain science.
 
catholictiger said:
be careful this talk may get into the evolution debate which is forbidden on this site. The arguments I have heard get very heated and the amends don’t like it. So be careful in discussing this topic.

Check out John Haught on this topic, I don’t know if he deals directly with ID as a may focus of a book but I know he adresses them.

amazon.com/John-F.-Haught/e/B001IGHJ2C

But the Catholic Church has not confirmed or denied ID, a Catholic can be in full communion with the Church even if he believes in ID, same with a Catholic who believes in evolution, young earth creationism, etc. There has been no dogmatical statement made by anyone in the Church who has made a scientific explanation morally bound to believe. I believe it will never happen.
Click to expand...
Intelligent Design is nothing but the unfolding of God’s government of the universe he created and his providential care in its regard. This is seen in paragraphs 302 - 308 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It can be summarized by the quote from Vatican 1 found in paragraph 302 : " By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures. "

This in no way excludes an evolutionary unfolding of the universe, with the exception of the human soul and angels, which are created immediately by God without secondary causality.

So Intelligent Design is nothing but God’s intimate government and providence in nature, guiding all things to the completion of their proper ends. Evolution in no way excludes Intelligent Design but requires it.

It may be true that the Church does not use the term Intelligent Design but surely this is what is meant by God’s provedential government. Do I have the wrong idea of I. D. ?

Linus2nd
 
Ion said:
We just have to stress one of the 2 points of view of any opinion: the “scientific view” of our opinion, together with the proven fact that scientific opinions were so many times wrong and are always changeable, vs the religious view which is always true and unchangable. The trouble comes by mixing them in the area of what we think is true.

My scientific view of the world history is about 65 hundred years…
Click to expand...
Which religious view? That Vishnu and the other gods created the world? That there is no God but God and Mohammed is His prophet? That Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God?

There are a great many religious views, and they cannot all be correct.

Science allows us to distinguish some incorrect religious views.

rossum
 
Linusthe2nd said:
Intelligent Design is nothing but the unfolding of God’s government of the universe he created and his providential care in its regard. This is seen in paragraphs 302 - 308 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It can be summarized by the quote from Vatican 1 found in paragraph 302 : " By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures. "

This in no way excludes an evolutionary unfolding of the universe, with the exception of the human soul and angels, which are created immediately by God without secondary causality.

So Intelligent Design is nothing but God’s intimate government and providence in nature, guiding all things to the completion of their proper ends. Evolution in no way excludes Intelligent Design but requires it.

It may be true that the Church does not use the term Intelligent Design but surely this is what is meant by God’s provedential government. Do I have the wrong idea of I. D. ?

Linus2nd
Click to expand...
when I think of I.D. I think of protestants who argue that God is the designer of the universe that he is responsible for things that can’t be explained by science. I.D. use things like the eye to say that evolution can’t explain how this complexity came about. The major problem for me with Intelligent design is that it views God in a different way then most Catholic Philosophers and theologians do. God creates the universe, not as a first cause in a series of chains but rather a cause that transcends all causes.
“reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures. "
Click to expand...
this idea that the uncaused cause transcends all causality.

think of it this way, you have a set of dominoes which are causing each-other to fall over, you can’t say that the ultimate reason the dominoes fall is because of other dominoes. This is absurd and doesn’t make sense, dominoes can’t be the own reason why they are falling, there must be a cause that transcends the dominoes to explain why they fall.

Same thing goes with causality in nature, you can’t explain the existence of causality with causality itself, there must be something that transcends secondary causality.

My point is that God is the reason we have existence, he created us and sustains us. The idea that God designed the universe to bring about something is wrong. Why would a perfect designer who can’t make mistakes create a universe which has death, evil, chaos and will probably end violently. I think of God more in final causality terms, God created the universe not that so the universe could be perfect but rather the universe brings his beloved creators (ensouled human beings) to him and the universe works towards a final end.

God isn’t a designer he is a creator.

John Haught a Catholic Theologian and someone who deals with scientific and philosophical issues talked about this. See God after Darwin and Deeper than Darwin.

so again I don’t believe that God had “designed” the universe, he has created the universe and he has designed it for the finial him which is in him and all things being in perfect union with God.

BTW if God was a designer it would have be perfect on day 1 and never become imperfect.
 
clem456 said:
I understand the point you are trying to make about scientific truth, but consider this question:

Would you run cross the interstate at rush hour?

No? Why not? Do you trust the research your eyes and senses have taught you? How about the science done in collision labs? I don’t know about you, but I trust that science to help inform me about the world God made. This is not about having perfect information (no such thing), or all the info, but information that should be used by our reason. We have to make wise judgements given the information we have.

Part of trusting God is to also trust the common sense of the observable world. The world, the reason we use, science, are all gifts from God. We trust other people all the time, constantly.
Click to expand...
I’ve gradually learned to trust scientists less due the unending posts here. So what if some people think the earth is around 6,000 years old? They’ll forget how to drive? Cross the interstate at rush hour? What?

Peace,
Ed
 
jonathan_hili said:
It’s sad when Christians see our reason and rational understanding of the world (for example, through the scientific method) as hostile to the faith. Why on earth would God give us our minds!
Click to expand...
Strongly agree! 👍

Everything that God reveals to us, regardless of the means, is good and true and beautiful, and can bring us closer to him.
 
catholictiger said:
when I think of I.D. I think of protestants who argue that God is the designer of the universe that he is responsible for things that can’t be explained by science. I.D. use things like the eye to say that evolution can’t explain how this complexity came about. The major problem for me with Intelligent design is that it views God in a different way then most Catholic Philosophers and theologians do. God creates the universe, not as a first cause in a series of chains but rather a cause that transcends all causes.

this idea that the uncaused cause transcends all causality.

think of it this way, you have a set of dominoes which are causing each-other to fall over, you can’t say that the ultimate reason the dominoes fall is because of other dominoes. This is absurd and doesn’t make sense, dominoes can’t be the own reason why they are falling, there must be a cause that transcends the dominoes to explain why they fall.

Same thing goes with causality in nature, you can’t explain the existence of causality with causality itself, there must be something that transcends secondary causality.

My point is that God is the reason we have existence, he created us and sustains us. The idea that God designed the universe to bring about something is wrong. Why would a perfect designer who can’t make mistakes create a universe which has death, evil, chaos and will probably end violently. I think of God more in final causality terms, God created the universe not that so the universe could be perfect but rather the universe brings his beloved creators (ensouled human beings) to him and the universe works towards a final end.

God isn’t a designer he is a creator.

John Haught a Catholic Theologian and someone who deals with scientific and philosophical issues talked about this. See God after Darwin and Deeper than Darwin.

so again I don’t believe that God had “designed” the universe, he has created the universe and he has designed it for the finial him which is in him and all things being in perfect union with God.

BTW if God was a designer it would have be perfect on day 1 and never become imperfect.
Click to expand...
" C " you are wrong on nearly every point. Have you read the CCC, paras 302-308 ?

I may take up the issues one by one later, tired now. Linus2nd
 
rossum said:
Which religious view? That Vishnu and the other gods created the world? That there is no God but God and Mohammed is His prophet? That Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God?

There are a great many religious views, and they cannot all be correct.

Science allows us to distinguish some incorrect religious views.

rossum
Click to expand...
Christianity is the only proven religion.
The rest are the result of deceptions or the result of some people trying to make a way to heavens.
Judaism comes second, but only for those able to live by the book.
Love God and love your neighbour. This is how you are supposed to live.
It is impossible happines in eternity otherwise.
 
What you should think about Intelligent Design is what I think, obviously; and that is, that it’s still going on
 
Aloysium

**What you should think about Intelligent Design is what I think, obviously; and that is, that it’s still going on **

And the sentence you just wrote is proof! 👍
 
catholictiger

**God isn’t a designer he is a creator. **

What have you created without a design? :confused:

God infused the universe with certain laws at the very moment of creation. God might have created it with other laws, but did not. Why did He choose one set of laws and not another? Because he had a purpose, and the purpose means that He must have a design. He created the universe to bring about the human race, so that we may get to know Him, love Him, and be happy with Him forever. If that’s creation without a design, I’ll eat your hat! 😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top