What should my stance be?

[moon1234]

The test though is that is the wife doing anything immoral? She is having sexual intercourse with her husband. HE is choosing to withdraw. That is HIS sin, not hers. If she were to encourage his actions or otherwise approve of them, then it would be a different situation. By refusing him sexually he may decide to do other things either with himself or others that he would not see as bad either.

She is being a loving wife to her husband. The best solution is to remind him that she would like him to be fully with her, to not deny himself to her. Have her ask him if he loves her for her or just for sex? If it is just for sex, then she is being used.

If he truly does not mind having another child, then why bother withdrawing? Withdrawl has NEVER been an effective method of birth control. The result of her not being pregnant does not lead to the conclusion that withdrawl works. That is a flaw in logical thinking. Once coitus happens, pregnancy is possible. Sperm is present in almost all bodily fluids that come from a mans sexual organ in greater or lesser numbers.

Another thing to consider is that withdrawl may have become a habit. He may actually enjoy the sensation or the imagery. Many men who have watched porn develop unhealthy habits that they have seen in porn. In almost EVERY porn movie the male withdraws.

My words are just advice, I offer them solely as another perspective.

 

[Xantippe]

TSB4 said:

“His whole whatever attitude makes me cringe. If my husband wanted another child, I would be willing to have another. But he withdraws which shows me he doesn’t. But withdrawing also makes me cringe.”

It does sound really terrible. If the two ends of marital sex are procreation and union, what is happening between the two of you is neither procreative nor unitive, which is why it is bothering you. I’m sure your husband does not mean to be selfish, but it sounds like these practices are not drawing you closer together.

Marriage counseling!

 

[ahs]

moon1234 said:

“Husband and wife as supposed to provide the matrimonial right when it is asked of the other.”

The OP is not doing anything wrong doing as she is doing, but there is no “matrimonial right” to onanism with your spouse. The thing that the OP’s husband is doing is not his “matrimonial right,” any more than he has a matrimonial right to other non-procreative sexual acts. He is entitled to actual intercourse, which is not what he is doing.

Yes, this. OP, I believe the reason it makes you cringe is because you husband is not having intercourse with you, per se. He is using your body to acheive an orgasm, and he has no basis upon which to claim this as a “right”.

 

[moon1234]

TSB4 said:

“His whole whatever attitude makes me cringe. If my husband wanted another child, I would be willing to have another. But he withdraws which shows me he doesn’t. But withdrawing also makes me cringe.”

It does sound really terrible. If the two ends of marital sex are procreation and union, what is happening between the two of you is neither procreative nor unitive, which is why it is bothering you. I’m sure your husband does not mean to be selfish, but it sounds like these practices are not drawing you closer together.

**Marriage counseling!/**QUOTE]

That is going to go over well. I would recommend starting with a spiritual advisor on her part first. He is not Catholic and the suggestion or marriage counseling at this stage will most likely result in a LOT of discord.

 

[TSB4]

I actually suggested marriage counseling. He fought me on the idea for a long time. Finally went to two sessions and decided it wasn’t for him. He is a very stubborn man. Sometimes we have so many issues in wonder if it is even all worth it, but I love him and made a commitment to love him through better or worse!

 

[moon1234]

Yes, this. OP, I believe the reason it makes you cringe is because you husband is not having intercourse with you, per se. He is using your body to acheive an orgasm, and he has no basis upon which to claim this as a “right”.

Sex always requires another person to achieve an orgasm. Ejaculation inside the female is NOT required to achieve pregnancy. It is required of the MAN to finish inside the women (barring accidents, etc.) for his marital act to be moral for HIM. He is not asking her to do anything other than have sex with him.

If she is ok with having another child, then why not encourage him to try? This might be all that is needed to “cure” him of his problem. Not suggesting that she MUST try to have another child.

On a different note, it is because of these types of situations that the Church strongly cautions that Catholics should only marry other Catholics.

 

[Xantippe]

moon1234 said:

“The test though is that is the wife doing anything immoral? She is having sexual intercourse with her husband. HE is choosing to withdraw. That is HIS sin, not hers. If she were to encourage his actions or otherwise approve of them, then it would be a different situation. By refusing him sexually he may decide to do other things either with himself or others that he would not see as bad either.”

1. She is not doing wrong.
2. He has no right to non-procreative sexual acts. The language of “marital rights” does not apply to this situation, except that if he refuses to have real intercourse with her (which is in fact what he is doing), he is refusing her her rights. She has rights too.
3. If she refuses him sexually and he commits onanism by himself, that is essentially what he is currently doing.

“If he truly does not mind having another child, then why bother withdrawing? Withdrawl has NEVER been an effective method of birth control. The result of her not being pregnant does not lead to the conclusion that withdrawl works. That is a flaw in logical thinking. Once coitus happens, pregnancy is possible. Sperm is present in almost all bodily fluids from a man in greater or lesser numbers.”

Agreed. I actually suspect that the reason that pregnancy has not occurred is that she is (or has been until recently) infertile, perhaps as a result of lactational amenorrhea. That’s worth mentioning to him.

TSB4,

Have a good look at Taking Charge of Your Fertility (it’s a secular book, so ignore the stuff about using condoms during the fertile time). If you have a normal health situation (i.e. no PCOS or other hormonal weirdness), once you are experiencing normal fertility, it will be crystal clear to you what your body is doing. When one is experiencing 2 or 3 inches of clear cervical fluid, there is no mistaking what is happening. I can’t even imagine having sex under those circumstances and thinking that withdrawal would be an adequate way to avoid pregnancy.

“Another thing to consider is that withdrawl may have become a habit. He may actually enjoy the sensation or the imagery. Many men who have watched porn develop unhealthy habits that they have seen in porn. In almost EVERY porn movie the male withdraws.”

That’s a definite possibility.

 

[Xantippe]

TSB4 said:

“I actually suggested marriage counseling. He fought me on the idea for a long time. Finally went to two sessions and decided it wasn’t for him. He is a very stubborn man. Sometimes we have so many issues in wonder if it is even all worth it, but I love him and made a commitment to love him through better or worse!”

At some point, I think you should try to get the following across to your husband:

1. I love you.
2. I’m not happy with certain parts of our marriage. Certain things that you do make me miserable.
3. I’m not perfect but I would like to improve myself.
4. I think we can have a better marriage and I think we can both be happier. In fact, I think it is our duty as husband and wife to have a better marriage and be happier together.
5. I think we need help doing that, because we’re not managing well alone.

Keep looking until you find a counselor that he will listen to. Go alone as necessary.

 

[fontgoddess]

OP, it just really bothers me that you have told him how bad this makes you feel, and he does not seem to care. That lack of tenderness and respect for you is just as bad if not worse than his sin of withdrawal. If he won’t give counselling a chance, I just don’t know what to suggest. I will pray for you both.

 

[Allegra]

The test though is that is the wife doing anything immoral? She is having sexual intercourse with her husband. HE is choosing to withdraw. That is HIS sin, not hers. If she were to encourage his actions or otherwise approve of them, then it would be a different situation. By refusing him sexually he may decide to do other things either with himself or others that he would not see as bad either.

She is being a loving wife to her husband. The best solution is to remind him that she would like him to be fully with her, to not deny himself to her. Have her ask him if he loves her for her or just for sex? If it is just for sex, then she is being used.

If he truly does not mind having another child, then why bother withdrawing? Withdrawl has NEVER been an effective method of birth control. The result of her not being pregnant does not lead to the conclusion that withdrawl works. That is a flaw in logical thinking. Once coitus happens, pregnancy is possible. Sperm is present in almost all bodily fluids that come from a mans sexual organ in greater or lesser numbers.

Another thing to consider is that withdrawl may have become a habit. He may actually enjoy the sensation or the imagery. Many men who have watched porn develop unhealthy habits that they have seen in porn. In almost EVERY porn movie the male withdraws.

My words are just advice, I offer them solely as another perspective.

It’s the husband’s sin if he cheats on his taxes too. Or if he gossips on the neighbors. Or if he smacks his kids around. The fact that it is the husband doing the sinning, doesn’t mean that the wife is obligated to go on letting it happen under her roof or even participate in it. There’s nothing wrong with saying, “What you’re doing is wrong and I’m not going to have any part in it.”

 

[TSB4]

OP, it just really bothers me that you have told him how bad this makes you feel, and he does not seem to care. That lack of tenderness and respect for you is just as bad if not worse than his sin of withdrawal. If he won’t give counselling a chance, I just don’t know what to suggest. I will pray for you both.

Yes, it does bother me as well. I try to keep the peace. I knownhowni would like things to be. However, when i try to put my foot down it causes tension. He feels I’m trying to control him etc…

 

[mommamaree]

Sometimes I wish I were brave enough to jut leave it in God’s hands. I dislike having to worry about my fertility each month. Furthermore, I really dislike when my husband withdraws.

Forgive my intrusive question, please, and do not feel compelled to answer, but doesn’t that cause physical pain or discomfort to you when he withdraws? Coitus interruptus can be painful for the woman.
As to the psychological consequences, it can also be very damaging. It is a rejection of one’s partner in the most intimate moment. I have never heard of anyone being pleased with the use of withdrawal. I have only ever heard of women saying how much it hurts them and makes them sad.
I know you say you cannot control your husband, but you do have a right to proper marital relations without him treating you this way. Is it possible that he might respond generously and compassionately if you tell him how wounded this action makes you?

 

[mommamaree]

I can tell you what my stance would be.

I would tell my husband that I am not interested in sex if he is going to “withdrawal.” One time, I am unaware. After that, I would be upset enough with him for him to realize I would not put up with it again.

I would also commit to learning NFP, and keeping with it. It only takes a couple of minutes a day.

I would notify him of fertile an infertile days, and let him take it from there. Again, with the understanding that withdrawal is *not *an option.

Thank you for saying this. I was afraid of stating it too strongly, but honestly, I would refuse relations if my husband were to stubbornly persist in doing this.

 

[mommamaree]

Husband and wife as supposed to provide the matrimonial right when it is asked of the other. There should not be conditions, etc. (I will only have sex with you if you promise to do/not do “X”). The wife in this situation is fulfilling her marriage obligation to her husband. The ability to say “no” should only be used when the person doing the denying has a just reason.

This particular question comes up a lot in mixed marriages. The non-Catholic will wear a condom or be on birth control pills. The question is then “Should I allow the other spouse to have sex with me?” The universal answer is almost always that sex for the Catholic will not be immoral as long as the Catholic is not the one doing anything that is immoral or illicit.

As always, consult with your local Priest or call the diocese chancery and speak to someone whom you don’t know. That way they won’t personally know who you are if you are worried about discussing something private with your parish Priest.

Not quite. There is no right to contracepted relations. This is the thing of the Church. Pastoral manuals and theological writings all say that the “marital act” is a right that must not be refused without legitimate reason, but go on to define marital act as sexual relations without contraceptive actions. Furthermore, these sources go on to explain that a spouse who refuses contracepted relations does well, not wrong, but that, in certain situations a spouse may be permitted to agree to contracepted relations with a spouse who stubbornly persists in insisting on contraception. But a wife refusing contracepted relations actually is in the right.

 

[maryjk]

OP, it just really bothers me that you have told him how bad this makes you feel, and he does not seem to care. That lack of tenderness and respect for you is just as bad if not worse than his sin of withdrawal. If he won’t give counselling a chance, I just don’t know what to suggest. I will pray for you both.

Me, too. That isn’t how loving spouses treat each other.

It’s the husband’s sin if he cheats on his taxes too. Or if he gossips on the neighbors. Or if he smacks his kids around. The fact that it is the husband doing the sinning, doesn’t mean that the wife is obligated to go on letting it happen under her roof or even participate in it. There’s nothing wrong with saying, “What you’re doing is wrong and I’m not going to have any part in it.”

 

[moon1234]

Not quite. There is no right to contracepted relations. This is the thing of the Church. Pastoral manuals and theological writings all say that the “marital act” is a right that must not be refused without legitimate reason, but go on to define marital act as sexual relations without contraceptive actions. Furthermore, these sources go on to explain that a spouse who refuses contracepted relations does well, not wrong, but that, in certain situations a spouse may be permitted to agree to contracepted relations with a spouse who stubbornly persists in insisting on contraception. But a wife refusing contracepted relations actually is in the right.

She may have a right to object, but that will not help the marriage. It will probably make it a lot worse. The husband does not see that what he is doing is incorrect. Until his viewpoint changes the wife has two options: Have sex or not. If she chooses the first, then she puts up with the pain this is causing her, if she does the latter she puts up with the pain it will cause her. It is a no win scenario.

If, however, she is able to steer his heart to understand her feelings and needs, then she can begin to change his heart.

This scenario comes up a lot with a spouse who has voluntarily been sterilized. The Church does not forbid or even say that it is morally wrong to have relations with the spouse who was sterilized. Meaning the sterilization does not need to be reversed. The harm here is to the soul of the person committing the act of withdrawal. Inflicting harm on someone else is not an equal comparison for the purpose of allowing the act to continue.

Forgive me for being frank, but here is a possible solution to your problem. Have the wife be on top of the husband until he is finished. He will have to choose to remove his wife in order to withdraw. That is not something most men will do unless they really are using their wife solely as an object. If this does happen, then the wife can use that moment to teach her husband how much that hurt her feelings. Has he always practiced withdrawal or is this a recent development?

It is a double edged sword though. It may reveal things that she does not want to know.

 

[Xantippe]

Moon1234 said:

“She may have a right to object, but that will not help the marriage. It will probably make it a lot worse. The husband does not see that what he is doing is incorrect.”

Actually, no. All he has to see is that he is doing something his wife hates and that their intimate life is not enjoyable for her. If he has more desire than she does (which she says is the case), he is shooting himself in the foot if he insists on doing stuff that annoys or disgusts her–that can only serve to make her even less interested than she was before. The rightness or wrongness of it doesn’t need to be addressed or demonstrated at this point. Imagine that he wears muddy boots into their house, leaves wet towels on carpet, stays up too late on the computer, gives away the endings of the books she’s reading, and makes large purchases without consulting her. None of that needs to be addressed as a huge moral issue. “I don’t like it when you do XYZ” ought to be good enough.

 

[moon1234]

I think she explained that she has already explained this to him and the behavior is not changing. Cutting him off from the sex will be seen as a weapon. I can almost 100% guarantee this will backfire and result in in more problems. Men just do not think like women. You have to get in a man’s mind in order to learn how to manipulate it.

The more I think about it, she should out herself in the drivers seat the next time they are intimate. She should be the one to control the session. This will allow her to decide where his part of the session is finished or at least attempt to decide. It is non-confrontational and most men will like this assertiveness anyway. If that goes badly THEN it would time to have a sit down talk. It will be painfully obvious that he made a decision to remove his wife from the love making session. Not an easy way to explain that away.

 

[TSB4]

She may have a right to object, but that will not help the marriage. It will probably make it a lot worse. The husband does not see that what he is doing is incorrect. Until his viewpoint changes the wife has two options: Have sex or not. If she chooses the first, then she puts up with the pain this is causing her, if she does the latter she puts up with the pain it will cause her. It is a no win scenario.

If, however, she is able to steer his heart to understand her feelings and needs, then she can begin to change his heart.

This scenario comes up a lot with a spouse who has voluntarily been sterilized. The Church does not forbid or even say that it is morally wrong to have relations with the spouse who was sterilized. Meaning the sterilization does not need to be reversed. The harm here is to the soul of the person committing the act of withdrawal. Inflicting harm on someone else is not an equal comparison for the purpose of allowing the act to continue.

Forgive me for being frank, but here is a possible solution to your problem. Have the wife be on top of the husband until he is finished. He will have to choose to remove his wife in order to withdraw. That is not something most men will do unless they really are using their wife solely as an object. If this does happen, then the wife can use that moment to teach her husband how much that hurt her feelings. Has he always practiced withdrawal or is this a recent development?

It is a double edged sword though. It may reveal things that she does not want to know.

It came up today. I told him I didn’t want him to withdraw anymore. He tried to avoid what I saying, and laughingly said, then I should get sterile. Which shows me that’s he is overly concerned with only the pleasure of sex. Im unsure how to go about it now. I think I would look silly to him if I tried to bring religion into it, as I’m trying to find my way closer to God as it is. I just don’t know what to do. I’m thinking I should just leave the issue alone…

 

[TSB4]

I think she explained that she has already explained this to him and the behavior is not changing. Cutting him off from the sex will be seen as a weapon. I can almost 100% guarantee this will backfire and result in in more problems. Men just do not think like women. You have to get in a man’s mind in order to learn how to manipulate it.

The more I think about it, she should out herself in the drivers seat the next time they are intimate. She should be the one to control the session. This will allow her to decide where his part of the session is finished or at least attempt to decide. It is non-confrontational and most men will like this assertiveness anyway. If that goes badly THEN it would time to have a sit down talk. It will be painfully obvious that he made a decision to remove his wife from the love making session. Not an easy way to explain that away.

I would hate to do that, and possibly have it result in a pregnancy. I’m afraid he would think I planned it to happen.