What should the Church do next with the Liturgy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Roman_Army
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
What about: “The Church shouldn’t do anything next with the Liturgy” ? The liturgical traditions of the Church must always be allowed to develop organically within practical and reasonable limits. So, while I voted that the Church should crack down on abuses and reintroduce facing east, I don’t think the Church should actually try to either “keep it the same” or “do something to it” as both fail to capture the true nature of the liturgy in my opinion.

The Church should not act as the manufacturer of the liturgy, but merely as its steward… taking care to trim or encourage growth as needed. Perhaps the caretakers were a bit aggressive lately in their pruning but the vine is strong and they were trying as best they could to ensure that the vine would be free of dead weight - it certainly is that. There is no reason to get over-worried that the smaller vine has sprung out in unexpected directions… it’s in good hands.
 
I noticed that one of the choices was to: Start facing East and introduct Icongraphy.
(I’m surprised it’s the second most popular choice so far!)

If that’s the case, just attend an Eastern Catholic Church. The sacraments are just as valid in the Eastern Catholic Churches as the West (I’m only talking about Eastern CATHOLIC not Orthodox).

Plus for a Latin RIte Catholic, attending an Eastern Catholic Liturgy DOES satisfy the requiremnt for your Sunday obligation. 🙂
 
40.png
stanley123:
My personal opinion is that many problems in the Church started when they more or less abandoned the TLM. Just look at the numbers:
9 annulments in 1930 in the USA
61, 416 annulments in 1989 in the USA.
Or, look at the scandals. Shameful.
When I mentioned these things before, I was accused of throwing mud at the Church. So, I won’t say anything else, except that my personal opinion (if you want it) is that it would be better for the RCC to return to the TLM.
Click to expand...
As another wise poster has pointed out, correlation doesn’t prove causation. Lots of things happened at the same time in the 60’s.
 
40.png
stanley123:
Good question.
Let’s look at the numbers for divorce at society at large and compare those numbers with the numbers for annulments in the RCC
Divorces in the USA
1930: 195, 961
1979: 1,179,000
1998: 1,135,000
Annulments given out by the Catholic Church in the USA:
1930: 9 (the RCC had the TLM in 1930)
1989: 61, 416. (the RCC had more or less abandoned the TLM in 1989)
The divorces in society at large have increased by a factor of about 6 (5.9)
The annulments in the RCC have increased over the same period by a factor of 6824, or more than one thousand times as much as the increase in divorces in the USA at large.
Click to expand...
This has to do with the Mass. You should start another thread on the annulment issue. “Correlation doesn’t prove causation.” You could just as well blame it on Elvis.
 
Bud McDuell:
Pope St. Pius V didn’t think so. Here’s an except from Quo Primum:

"We specifically command each and every patriarch, administrator, and all other persons or whatever ecclesiastical dignity they may be, be they even cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, or possessed of any other rank or pre-eminence, and We order them in virtue of holy obedience to chant or to read the Mass according to the rite and manner and norm herewith laid down by Us and, hereafter, to discontinue and completely discard all other rubrics and rites of other missals, however ancient, which they have customarily followed; and they must not in celebrating Mass presume to introduce any ceremonies or recite any prayers other than those contained in this Missal.

Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us. We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force notwithstanding the previous constitutions and decrees of the Holy See, as well as any general or special constitutions or edicts of provincial or synodal councils, and notwithstanding the practice and custom of the aforesaid churches, established by long and immemorial prescription - except, however, if more than two hundred years’ standing. "
Click to expand...
And the Pope was within his rights to do so. All the Church was to celebrate this Mass. He imposed a discipline which was latter altered by one of his successors, who was also completely within his rights. There is a difference between discipline and dogma. The former can change, the latter cannot.
 
As another wise poster has pointed out, correlation doesn’t prove causation. Lots of things happened at the same time in the 60’s.
Click to expand...
Yup and most were written against in Humanae Vitae.
 
40.png
JKirkLVNV:
This has to do with the Mass. You should start another thread on the annulment issue. “Correlation doesn’t prove causation.” You could just as well blame it on Elvis.
Click to expand...
It doesn’t. He has been posting the same thing in various other threads. They reason why? I have my suspision but I will not go into it here.

PF
 
The Novus is such a beautiful liturgy! It has everything needed to lift man from his mortal surroundings into heaven. However after seeing pictures of Eastern Iconography I realised how cool it would be to have our Church Interiors decorated completely with the images of the Saints and Christ! We also need more liturgical music, both traditional and contemporary so we can stop using Protestant hymns. And translating parts of the tridentine wouldn’t be a bad idea, stick in a few psalms before the altar, two different confitors, etc. But hey, I’m a nut for latin and traditional stuff.
 
40.png
flamingsword:
Bud McDuell

The Pope has the authority everywhere and always to make changes to the Mass. Paul the VI was completely within the bounds of Church Tradition to effect the changes he did. This topic and this quote of yours have been dealt with in many other strings.
Click to expand...
HEAR, HEAR! The new mass was a result of long deliberations and liturgical study and expressed the universal mind of the Church through the Council Fathers, who voted for it overwhelmingly.

In my experience, even if a sung TLM is “beautiful”, the culture around it is overwhelmingly prejudiced against the last three popes, Vatican 11 and the Mass of Paul V1, which is THE normative mass of the Church. In other words - dissent, disobedience, self-appointed canon lawyers, theologians and liturgists who have not an iota of resemblance to the expertise of those given these jobs in the Church.

The population at the TLM I go to shifts, ebbs and flows dramatically. It’s easy to get to, the singing is heavenly, the few regulars are pretty friendly, but it attracts a very small number of people. I wonder if the reason could be that many of its attendees sneer at the rest of the Church who loyally and patiently attend the normative Mass?

The vast majority of good faithful Catholics I know go to the normative Mass. Frankly, I envy their ability to suffer patiently when there are abuses. I don’t believe for a minute the TLM will attract more than a tiny minority of catholics.
 
40.png
Frankie:
HEAR, HEAR! The new mass was a result of long deliberations and liturgical study and expressed the universal mind of the Church through the Council Fathers, who voted for it overwhelmingly.
Click to expand...
Actually that is not what happened. The Council was well over and all the Bishops home when the comission began work on building the new liturgy. One of the reasons why there have so much modifications since its codification is that it has proven to not do or have what the Council Father’s best hopes were at the time.
 
Wow! I didn’t expect this thread to be a blockbuster. I read all the posts. It took a while. But, was very interesting. I did not intend this thread or poll to be in anyway biased as some posters commented. My knowledge about the liturgy is very limited which is why I put in “Other. Explain.” There are some terms I’m not familiar with such as “Vernacular” and “Rubrics.” I like the current mass (without abuses), but would like to see more traditional things added to it as well. Such as facing East and use of iconography. I would also like to see new music composed that is completely meant for Catholic use, as well as some beautiful Latin hymns, in which the faithful are taught to understand. In my Parish they started using three languages in one hymn: “Lord hear our prayer. Deus et onimos (sp?), Senor escuchanos.” I thought that was beautiful in English, Latin, and Spanish.
 
40.png
Frankie:
The vast majority of good faithful Catholics I know go to the normative Mass. Frankly, I envy their ability to suffer patiently when there are abuses. I don’t believe for a minute the TLM will attract more than a tiny minority of catholics.
Click to expand...
How about the NO the way it was suppose to be. With reverence, not an “anything goes” potluck liturgy.
Put the statues back into the churches, get rid of banners and get some good stained glass.
Sing the Latin and Greek. If my five year old can sing the Agnus Dei, the Gloria and Kyrie, the adults shouldn’t have any problem picking them up (she is a non-reader and picked them up in two months)
Let people who want to kneel for Communion, do it. Got no Altar rail? We use kneelers.
Get some Altar Boys and Choir Girls, don’t mix the two.
Get people to lead a Rosary before Holy Mass and say the Prayer to St.Michael the Archangel after. God Knows, we need all the protection we can get.
And for heavens sake, stop worrying about how long Communion will take. Let everyone receive from a Priest or Deacon unless it is a Holiday or Holy Day. Patience is a virtue sorely lacking in some parishes.

I know many of these have nothing to do with the Liturgy, but if anyone looks at my parish (who is doing all of the above) they will see us growing out of our church, supporting eight seminarians and 200 Altar Boys. We must be doing something right.

I guess my quick answer would be, bring back the reverence.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
How about the NO the way it was suppose to be. With reverence, not an “anything goes” potluck liturgy.
Put the statues back into the churches, get rid of banners and get some good stained glass.
Sing the Latin and Greek. If my five year old can sing the Agnus Dei, the Gloria and Kyrie, the adults shouldn’t have any problem picking them up (she is a non-reader and picked them up in two months)
Let people who want to kneel for Communion, do it. Got no Altar rail? We use kneelers.
Get some Altar Boys and Choir Girls, don’t mix the two.
Get people to lead a Rosary before Holy Mass and say the Prayer to St.Michael the Archangel after. God Knows, we need all the protection we can get.
And for heavens sake, stop worrying about how long Communion will take. Let everyone receive from a Priest or Deacon unless it is a Holiday or Holy Day. Patience is a virtue sorely lacking in some parishes.

I know many of these have nothing to do with the Liturgy, but if anyone looks at my parish (who is doing all of the above) they will see us growing out of our church, supporting eight seminarians and 200 Altar Boys. We must be doing something right.

I guess my quick answer would be, bring back the reverence.
Click to expand...
What? No hand holding, orans posture, dancing or lay homilists? You are too legalistic.
 
40.png
fix:
What? No hand holding, orans posture, dancing or lay homilists? You are too legalistic.
Click to expand...
:eek: **I hope you are not being serious with this comment. **
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
How about the NO the way it was suppose to be. With reverence, not an “anything goes” potluck liturgy.
Put the statues back into the churches, get rid of banners and get some good stained glass.
Sing the Latin and Greek. If my five year old can sing the Agnus Dei, the Gloria and Kyrie, the adults shouldn’t have any problem picking them up (she is a non-reader and picked them up in two months)
Let people who want to kneel for Communion, do it. Got no Altar rail? We use kneelers.
Get some Altar Boys and Choir Girls, don’t mix the two.
Get people to lead a Rosary before Holy Mass and say the Prayer to St.Michael the Archangel after. God Knows, we need all the protection we can get.
And for heavens sake, stop worrying about how long Communion will take. Let everyone receive from a Priest or Deacon unless it is a Holiday or Holy Day. Patience is a virtue sorely lacking in some parishes.

I know many of these have nothing to do with the Liturgy, but if anyone looks at my parish (who is doing all of the above) they will see us growing out of our church, supporting eight seminarians and 200 Altar Boys. We must be doing something right.

I guess my quick answer would be, bring back the reverence.
Click to expand...
**I completely agree with this statement. God bless you and your parish.🙂 **
 
One of the problems that exists get virtually no attention.

It is well known that architecture has a big effect on people and organizations. What we have largely is that there is no standard architecture across the U.S.

I think that the architecture affects the liturgy, and I don’t see that a sensible architecture, certainly nothing like a standard architecture, has emerged out of the liturgy of Mass with the priest facing the people. The placement of the tabernacle is the biggest bone of contention, but by no means the only one.

I would say we need a rock solid architecture and a rock solid roadmap for the Mass, with no deviations.

The idea of celebrating the Mass has been replaced with the idols of innovation. And, c’mon, we’re supposed to avoid idols. Who talks about the evils of idols anymore? You have to turn on a Protestant evangelist on TV to hear anybody talk about idols. We have made idols of almost everything in the Catholic Mass in the name of “saving” the Mass.

The big laugh here is this thread itself. Who ever really asked us if we wanted a change in the Mass or what change we would want? That’s my biggest beef. The Mass is always changing and somebody else is making the decisions about what is good for me. Nobody asks me. And, it’s waaaaay too late.
 
Roman_Army said:
As former Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) put it, the Latin rite has to rediscover its traditions, such as the Priest and people facing East together, crucifix in front of the altar, tabernacle visible, and good liturgical music, etc.
Click to expand...

I am in favor of the priest and congregation facing the same way. However, was it really a requirement before VII that all face East? There are many old churches (>100 years old) in our diocese where the church is not aligned West-to-East.
 
40.png
NKY_Catholic:
I am in favor of the priest and congregation facing the same way. However, was it really a requirement before VII that all face East? There are many old churches (>100 years old) in our diocese where the church is not aligned West-to-East.
Click to expand...
**No, however it was recommended. Those Churches should’ve been built facing East. If they were to introduce facing East, I guess maybe either those Churches would have to change interiorly or maybe at least everyone face towards the sanctuary. However, I wouldn’t mind rebuilding those Churches, if there’s enough money on the table ofcourse.😉 **
 
Roman_Army said:
**No, however it was recommended. Those Churches should’ve been built facing East. If they were to introduce facing East, I guess maybe either those Churches would have to change interiorly or maybe at least everyone face towards the sanctuary. However, I wouldn’t mind rebuilding those Churches, if there’s enough money on the table ofcourse.😉 **
Click to expand...

I think what we will find the the Fr. Fesio proposal of the Tabernacule as the “symbolic east” to supplement the lack of a true cardinal east.
 
40.png
JKirkLVNV:
This has to do with the Mass. You should start another thread on the annulment issue. “Correlation doesn’t prove causation.” You could just as well blame it on Elvis.
Click to expand...
I think that there is a saying that the rule of prayer is the rule of belief, something like that. Why have clown Masses, for example? I though that the clown was the symbol of a joke. Does that mean then that the Catholic Mass is supposed to be a joke? Then if the Catholic Mass is a joke, then perhaps other things such as the indissolublity of marriage are not to be taken seriously.
I noticed a lot of problems began just when the dropped the TLM. Just take a look at the numbers - don’t they tell us something has gone wrong? Then look a bit at the newspapers and the shame.
Was it this bad when you had the TLM? Its not just the one issue of annulments, its a whole lot of things.
To sum up, my personal opinion is in favor of a return to the TLM.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top