What should the Church "drop" besides limbo?

[Saint_Sinner]

The relavant section of the CCC…

1261:
As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 **allow us to hope **that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

This just says we don’t know what happens and we hope that God will be merciful. How is this a sea change?

 

[Tom317]

The poll results disturbs me bigtime!

 

[Apherius]

None of the above!!!

I might vote just so I can see results.

 

[corvidae]

I respectfully address this question to those Catholics who, undermining the dogma of original sin, are sure that all unbaptized infants go to heaven:

If it’s certain that all unbaptized infants go to heaven, then what’s the urgency–or even the mere point–of infant Baptism, apart from providing an occasion for a family celebration?

If limbo and original sin are “dropped,” won’t infant Baptism also have to be “dropped”?

You Catholics (this is ironic distancing–I’m not losing the Faith) are confusing me!

Keep and spread the Faith.

We also believe that those in invincible ignorance may still be saved. And yet, we are told to evangelize. We must evangelize, not because they have no hope of salvation, but to give them a greater hope of salvation, and to give them truth. The truth is that baptism is the normal way that God works, but God is not limited to His own Sacraments, God may act outside of the sacraments, but normally acts through them.

We are not saying that baptism is uneccesary, we are saying it is the normal way that God works, but we do not limit God.

A lone Raven

 

[corvidae]

None of the above!!!

I might vote just so I can see results.

just hit view results on the right side of the poll.

A lone Raven

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

I respectfully disagree. Dogma cannot be dropped. That is not possible. Limbo is not on par with dogma, nor has it ever been. If Limbo was declared by the Pope not to exist it would not affect the dogma of original sin. The concept of Limbo is dependent upon the reality of original sin, but the reality of original sin is not dependent upon the concept of Limbo. The “dropping” of Limbo may have a great deal of effect on how we view the salvation of non-baptized babies, but not on original sin. Either we will believe that all unbaptized babies go to hell as they did prior to the Limbo hypothesis or you will believe that souls of these babies are at the mercy of God and He will do what is best. I will choose the latter, unless otherwise directed by an official doctrine of the Church.

Salvation is a gift. God will give it to whom He chooses. IMHO

Let’s look at the situation logically. Unbaptized infants can go to three eternal destinies only: hell, heaven, or limbo.

1. They don’t go to hell, because that answer conflicts with God’s goodness, mercy, love, and universal salvific will.
2. They don’t go to heaven, because that answer conflicts with the Catholic dogma that those dying with original sin only–and that description applies to unbaptized infants–are somehow punished in the next world. Heaven can’t coexist with punishment. The dogma of next-world punishment for those dying with original sin only was taught by the Council of Lyons II in 1274 and the Council of Forence in 1439.
3. Consequently, they must go to limbo, a state that is both a form of salvation (salvation from the pains of hell) and a punishment (the loss of heaven).

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Tom317]

41 votes for making the Church a cafeteria. How truly sad.

 

[corvidae]

Let’s look at the situation logically. Unbaptized infants can go to three eternal destinies only: hell, heaven, or limbo.

1. They don’t go to hell, because that answer conflicts with God’s goodness, mercy, love, and universal salvific will.
2. They don’t go to heaven, because that answer conflicts with the Catholic dogma that those dying with original sin only–and that description applies to unbaptized infants–are somehow punished in the next world. Heaven can’t coexist with punishment. The dogma of next-world punishment for those dying with original sin only was taught by the Council of Lyons II in 1274 and the Council of Forence in 1439.
3. Consequently, they must go to limbo, a state that is both a form of salvation (salvation from the pains of hell) and a punishment (the loss of heaven).

Keep and spread the Faith.

What about purgatory, we believe that those who die with any sin will have some kind of suffering in the next life, does that mean they go to hell?

The last things, as I was taught them are death, judgement, heaven and hell.

No limbo involved, and I was taught this over 12 years ago.

A lone Raven

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

The poll results disturb me bigtime!

Tom, I’m also disturbed by the poll results, but I’m not surprised.

Again, I suspect that some of those urging the Church to “drop” limbo and say that all unbaptized infants go to heaven also want the Church to “drop” other concepts from Catholicism, including Catholic dogmas and moral teachings from which they dissent.

The Catholic Church can’t do that. That’s one sign of the fact that she is the one true Church, with which all Christians should be in full communion.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Tom317]

Tom, I’m also disturbed by the poll results, but I’m not surprised.

Again, I suspect that some of those urging the Church to “drop” limbo and say that all unbaptized infants go to heaven also want the Church to “drop” other concepts from Catholicism, including Catholic dogmas and moral teachings from which they dissent.

The Catholic Church can’t do that. That’s one sign of the fact that she is the one true Church, with which all Christians should be in full communion.

Keep and spread the Faith.

I am very surprised considering this is a Catholic site.

 

[mrs_abbott]

I am very surprised considering this is a Catholic site.

But it’s also the “real world”. Alot of those people that voted on this poll aren’t “100% in-sync” with the Catholic Church like a good majority on this site. Plus, there’s alot of denominations here that would like to become Catholic but don’t agree with some of the teachings that are listed on this poll.
It’s just reality, folks, whether you agree or disagree.

 

[Tom317]

But it’s also the “real world”. Alot of those people that voted on this poll aren’t “100% in-sync” with the Catholic Church like a good majority on this site. Plus, there’s alot of denominations here that would like to become Catholic but don’t agree with some of the teachings that are listed on this poll.
It’s just reality, folks, whether you agree or disagree.

That is an awful lots of votes in favor of making the faith a cafeteria, prodoundly disturbing.

 

[mrs_abbott]

That is an awful lots of votes in favor of making the faith a cafeteria, prodoundly disturbing.

Maybe so but you don’t know that those voting for such things aren’t just going through a rough moment in their life and things would seem “easier” if they were approved by the Church. Or, some really do think things should be dropped, like contraception. Since the results are fairly anonymous here, those that hide in the shadows for fear of ridicule by the “faithful” voice their opinions here silently and get their point across by a simple number listed next to a choice or two.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

What about purgatory, we believe that those who die with any sin will have some kind of suffering in the next life, does that mean they go to hell?

The last things, as I was taught them are death, judgement, heaven and hell.

No limbo involved, and I was taught this over 12 years ago.

A lone Raven

Purgatory can’t apply to infants, because they’re inapable of committing any "actual "(personal) sin. Original sin differs from “actual” sin. Please see CCC 404-405 and 1030-1032.

The existence of limbo doesn’t conflict with the enumeration of the “four last things.” Limbo, considered as a punishment, is a kind of hell–but minus the sorrow and suffering of hell. Limbo is a quasi-hell because it is a penalty for original sin. The penalty is the loss of the supernatural happiness of the beatific vision. But please don’t forget that limbo is simultaneously a state of unmerited, unending natural happiness and, thus, a quasi-heaven.

The dual character of limbo is a paradox, but we should all try to understand and accept this paradox, because it will enable us to keep the Faith in a consistent, coherent, and rational manner.

The bottom line is this: depending on how you wish to look at it, limbo can be considered as being included in the “four last things” under either hell or heaven.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Tom317]

Maybe so but you don’t know that those voting for such things aren’t just going through a rough moment in their life and things would seem “easier” if they were approved by the Church. Or, some really do think things should be dropped, like contraception. Since the results are fairly anonymous here, those that hide in the shadows for fear of ridicule by the “faithful” voice their opinions here silently and get their point across by a simple number listed next to a choice or two.

This is a Catholic site, and most people here are Catholics. It is disturbing to see so many people, who claim to be Catholic, voting for changes that essentially does away with the faith. It shocks me. I am not judging any one person, I am saying these results are deeply disturbing and reflect a genuine problem.

 

[mrs_abbott]

This is a Catholic site, and most people here are Catholics. It is disturbing to see so many people, who claim to be Catholic, voting for changes that essentially does away with the faith. It shocks me. I am not judging any one person, I am saying these results are deeply disturbing and reflect a genuine problem.

About 70% are Catholic and 30% are not, I’d say. I’ll admit that the results are interesting, considering that there’s quite a poll to change things, such as “only saved through the Catholic Church” and “contraception” (the two that I voted for myself).

 

[Tom317]

About 70% are Catholic and 30% are not, I’d say. I’ll admit that the results are interesting, considering that there’s quite a poll to change things, such as “only saved through the Catholic Church” and “contraception” (the two that I voted for myself).

You voted?

That also shocks me and saddens me.

 

[mrs_abbott]

You voted?

That also shocks me and saddens me.

I’m sorry but I’m working on changing my view of contraception but as of now, that’s where I stand.
On the other issue, I just don’t believe that Jesus would exclude someone from Heaven just because they were not affilliated with the Catholic Church.
But then again, I’m not a very “good” Catholic so try not to get too saddened by my opinion. I mean no disrespect. It’s just my feelings on those matters.

 

[corvidae]

Purgatory can’t apply to infants, because they’re inapable of committing any "actual "(personal) sin. Original sin differs from “actual” sin. Please see CCC 404-405 and 1030-1032.

The existence of limbo doesn’t conflict with the enumeration of the “four last things.” Limbo, considered as a punishment, is a kind of hell–but minus the sorrow and suffering of hell. Limbo is a quasi-hell because it is a penalty for original sin. The penalty is the loss of the supernatural happiness of the beatific vision. But please don’t forget that limbo is simultaneously a state of unmerited, unending natural happiness and, thus, a quasi-heaven.

The dual character of limbo is a paradox, but we should all try to understand and accept this paradox, because it will enable us to keep the Faith in a consistent, coherent, and rational manner.

The bottom line is this: depending on how you wish to look at it, limbo can be considered as being included in the “four last things” under either hell or heaven.

Keep and spread the Faith.

See here is where the problem of limbo comes, you are giving the people who commited actual sin a chance to enter heaven, but are not giving those who committed no actual sin to enter heaven.
A lone Raven

 

[franksv]

O- None of the above