What should the Church "drop" besides limbo?

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Steve_O_Brien

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There is talk in the Catholic media and on these forums about the alleged ability of the Catholic Church to “drop” or “scrap” the concept of limbo. As a Catholic, I’m upset by this talk for this reason: even though limbo is not a Catholic dogma, it’s a deduction that’s necessary for the defense of truths that are Catholic dogmas, especially the dogma of original sin–the sin that makes it impossible for unbaptized infants to go to heaven (CCC 403 and 1250).

If the Church were to “drop” limbo and original sin, then she could drop *any *concept, dogma, or teaching. Logic demands this conclusion. This is why the Church will not, and cannot, “abolish” limbo. The one true Church cannot contradict herself in her official teachings, and the gates of hell will not prevail against her (Mt. 16:18).

Still, I’m interested in seeing how confused some of my Catholic brothers and sisters are. By my poll, which should be answered only by Catholics who believe that the Church should “drop” limbo, I’m trying to determine the percentages of Catholics who are willling to see the Church self-destruct by “dropping” other teachings.

I suspect that some of those Catholics advocating that limbo be “scrapped” would like to see Catholicism turned into what Pope St. Pius X, condemning the heresy of Modernism in 1907, called a “broad and liberal Protestantism” (DS 3465=D2065).

We must respect and love our brothers and sisters in broad and liberal Protestantism, and we must pray and work in the ecumenical movement for their return to full communion with the Catholic Church. We must not, however, allow ourselves to become broad and liberal Protestants.

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
Steve_O_Brien said:
There is talk in the Catholic media and on these forums about the alleged ability of the Catholic Church to “drop” or “scrap” the concept of limbo. As a Catholic, I’m upset by this talk for this reason: even though limbo is not a Catholic dogma, it’s a deduction that’s necessary for the defense of truths that are Catholic dogmas, especially the dogma of original sin–the sin that makes it impossible for unbaptized infants to go to heaven (CCC 403 and 1250).

If the Church were to “drop” limbo and original sin, then she could drop *any *concept, dogma, or teaching. Logic demands this conclusion. This is why the Church will not, and cannot, “abolish” limbo. The one true Church cannot contradict herself in her official teachings, and the gates of hell will not prevail against her (Mt. 16:18).

Still, I’m interested in seeing how confused some of my Catholic brothers and sisters are. By my poll, which should be answered only by Catholics who believe that the Church should “drop” limbo, I’m trying to determine the percentages of Catholics who are willling to see the Church self-destruct by “dropping” other teachings.

I suspect that some of those Catholics advocating that limbo be “scrapped” would like to see Catholicism turned into what Pope St. Pius X, condemning the heresy of Modernism in 1907, called a “broad and liberal Protestantism” (DS 3465=D2065).

We must respect and love our brothers and sisters in broad and liberal Protestantism, and we must pray and work in the ecumenical movement for their return to full communion with the Catholic Church. We must not, however, allow ourselves to become broad and liberal Protestants.

Keep and spread the Faith.
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You left out “none of the above”.

pax vobiscum
 
Steve_O_Brien said:
There is talk in the Catholic media and on these forums about the alleged ability of the Catholic Church to “drop” or “scrap” the concept of limbo. As a Catholic, I’m upset by this talk for this reason: even though limbo is not a Catholic dogma, it’s a deduction that’s necessary for the defense of truths that are Catholic dogmas, especially the dogma of original sin–the sin that makes it impossible for unbaptized infants to go to heaven (CCC 403 and 1250).

If the Church were to “drop” limbo and original sin, then she could drop *any *concept, dogma, or teaching. Logic demands this conclusion. This is why the Church will not, and cannot, “abolish” limbo. The one true Church cannot contradict herself in her official teachings, and the gates of hell will not prevail against her (Mt. 16:18).

Still, I’m interested in seeing how confused some of my Catholic brothers and sisters are. By my poll, which should be answered only by Catholics who believe that the Church should “drop” limbo, I’m trying to determine the percentages of Catholics who are willling to see the Church self-destruct by “dropping” other teachings.

I suspect that some of those Catholics advocating that limbo be “scrapped” would like to see Catholicism turned into what Pope St. Pius X, condemning the heresy of Modernism in 1907, called a “broad and liberal Protestantism” (DS 3465=D2065).

We must respect and love our brothers and sisters in broad and liberal Protestantism, and we must pray and work in the ecumenical movement for their return to full communion with the Catholic Church. We must not, however, allow ourselves to become broad and liberal Protestants.

Keep and spread the Faith.
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Without turning this into a huge theological debate.

How did those who died before Christ get into heaven without baptism?

:confused:
 
Magicsilence said:
Without turning this into a huge theological debate.

How did those who died before Christ get into heaven without baptism?

:confused:
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Magic Silence, please see these sections of the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 631-637, 846-848, 1257, and 1260.

Here’s a link for the new catechism:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

I’m correcting this sentence in post #1 by removing the extra “l” from “willing”:

***“By my poll, which should be answered only by Catholics who believe that the Church should ‘drop’ limbo, I’m trying to determine the percentages of Catholics who are willing to see the Church self-destruct by ‘dropping’ other teachings.”
Please be assured that you and your family are in my prayers.

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
Steve,
The Church will not self distruct. Keep in mind what Jesus promised about protecting his Church. I believe him, do you?

God’s Peace,
Stephen
 
Yeah, where’s “None of the above”?

I advocate dropping limbo (I’d rather have “We don’t know for sure” rather than Limbo) but I wouldn’t want any of these other beliefs and teachings of the Church to be dropped.

Jeremy
 
“None of the above”

The Truth and the Church aren’t a democracy.
 
Greetings,

Amen, where’s the “none of the above” option?? If the Catholic Church wher to drop what it teaches in any one of the above it would cease to be the Catholic Church in those areas and we would also be breaking with Tradition. Not good.

Dominus Vobiscum,
Rocco
 
Steve_O_Brien said:
Magic Silence, please see these sections of the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 631-637, 846-848, 1257, and 1260.

Here’s a link for the new catechism:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

I’m correcting this sentence in post #1 by removing the extra “l” from “willing”:

***“By my poll, which should be answered only by Catholics who believe that the Church should ‘drop’ limbo, I’m trying to determine the percentages of Catholics who are willing to see the Church self-destruct by ‘dropping’ other teachings.”
Please be assured that you and your family are in my prayers.

Keep and spread the Faith.
Click to expand...
I would have participated in the poll, except you did not have none of the above listed. By the way, limbo has never, to my knowledge, been an official dogma of the Church. It was a speculation of some theologians but never infallibly declared by a Pope. In fact, when I search the Catechism, the term limbo is not found. So, I don’t think “dropping limbo” is even a reality. Perhaps the Pope is going to clarify that the Limbo theory is just a theory, or perhaps he is going to infallibly declare the Limbo does not exist. I don’t know that part of the story.
 
What???
If you’re so into dropping things, why not drop Jesus?

Ohhh I’m sorry you can’t do that, you would cease being Christian, well I got news for you, if you drop any of the above you cease being Catholic.
Jesus cannot be separated from His teaching or His Church.
Jesus never explicitly taught there is a limbus for the non-baptized.
St Augustine did not think so either.
 
Stephen_C said:
Steve,
The Church will not self-destruct. Keep in mind what Jesus promised about protecting his Church. I believe him, do you?

God’s Peace,
Stephen
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Yes, namesake, I do, and that’s why I stated in post #1 that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Catholic Church (Mt 16:18).

Since the Church can’t self-destruct, she can’t abandon the deduction known as limbo, because she would thereby be contradicting the Catholic dogma that souls dying in original sin only are punished in the next world by being deprived of the supernatual happiness of the beatific vision. This dogma was taught by two ecumenical councils: Lyons II in 1274 (DS 858=D 464=CCC 1022 [footnote 594]) and Florence in 1439 (DS 1306=D 693=*CCC *1022 [footnote 594]).

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
I would have participated in the poll, except you did not have none of the above listed. By the way, limbo has never, to my knowledge, been an official dogma of the Church. It was a speculation of some theologians but never infallibly declared by a Pope. In fact, when I search the Catechism, the term limbo is not found. So, I don’t think “dropping limbo” is even a reality. Perhaps the Pope is going to clarify that the Limbo theory is just a theory, or perhaps he is going to infallibly declare the Limbo does not exist. I don’t know that part of the story.
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Limbo is on page 817 of the CCC second edition–promulgated by John Paul II. Limbo references CCC 1261.
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
In fact, when I search the Catechism, the term limbo is not found.
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Wrong.

Prayer Warrior, please open your copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church to the official index under the word “Limbo.” You’ll find limbo right there on that page. Limbo will be smiling at you, because it’s a state of unmerited, unending natural happiness–a state for which we should all thank God.

The index links limbo with section 1261. The “hope” and “way of salvation” mentioned in that section should be understood as referring to limbo, not heaven.

In my hardcover edition of the new catechism, limbo is listed on page 816.

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
TobyLue said:
Something that has never been **held firm **cannot be dropped.
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Toby Lue, what the Catholic Church has firmly held–what is, in fact, a Catholic dogma–is the teaching that those dying in original sin only are penalized in the next world by being deprived of the *supernatural *happiness of heaven.

Unfortunately, unbaptized infants die in original sin. Fortunately, however, we may hope that they go to limbo, where they will enjoy *natural *happiness for all eternity.

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
Steve_O_Brien said:
Toby Lue, what the Catholic Church has firmly held–what is, in fact, a Catholic dogma–is the teaching that those dying in original sin only are penalized in the next world by being deprived of the *supernatural *happiness of heaven.

Unfortunately, unbaptized infants die in original sin. Fortunately, however, we may hope that they go to limbo, where they will enjoy *natural *happiness for all eternity.

Keep and spread the Faith.
Click to expand...
What about the good thief on the Cross? I assume you must think that he went to the limbo of the just for a brief time?
 
You are mixing apples with oranges with pears. Items one through five are moral teachings. Item six is a question of church discipline in spite of JP II’s desperate and probably successful attempts to bind his predecessors by pretending it is anything else, and only the rest are questions of doctrine. And this thing about dropping limbo is as far as I know only a rumor. Limbo is as sensible a doctrine as any in Roman Catholicism.
 
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