What social programs can we establish to promote families (especially in low income areas)?

[Selah_KY]

your points about stagnant wages, high cost of food and other necessities, and not having family or friends to lend support are great points, but these are issues affecting everyone, not just low-income families.

It is very rare for these things to affect middle class families. In fact, in many studies lacking those supports is how many lower middle class families fall out of the middle class.

ANYONE can pull themselves out of poverty. the question is, are they willing to put in the effort, and if not, why must the rest of society pay for their bad decisions?

Ouch. Another assumption… it isn’t just “bad decisions” that keep people in poverty.

 

[madtom]

It is very rare for these things to affect middle class families. In fact, in many studies lacking those supports is how many lower middle class families fall out of the middle class.

I’m sorry, but I prefer to base my opinion on the real world instead of “studies.” My family is firmly middle class, as are most of my friends and family, and most of us are greatly affected by these issues.

Ouch. Another assumption… it isn’t just “bad decisions” that keep people in poverty.

There is rarely just one reason for any predicament, but “bad decisions” is without question the primary reason for being in poverty.

 

[stinkcat_14]

I’m sorry, but I prefer to base my opinion on the real world instead of “studies.” My family is firmly middle class, as are most of my friends and family, and most of us are greatly affected by these issues.

There is rarely just one reason for any predicament, but “bad decisions” is without question the primary reason for being in poverty.

When I was in a less developed county, I met people who earned $2 a day. What bad decisions did they make that put them in poverty.

 

[madtom]

When I was in a less developed county, I met people who earned $2 a day. What bad decisions did they make that put them in poverty.

clearly I was talking about poverty in America. we certainly have our issues, but with the freedom and opportunity available here, my statement stands. I would not say the same thing regarding poverty in the rest of the world.

 

[stinkcat_14]

clearly I was talking about poverty in America. we certainly have our issues, but with the freedom and opportunity available here, my statement stands. I would not say the same thing regarding poverty in the rest of the world.

What is your source for your opinion that bad decisions are the primary reason for poverty?

 

[madtom]

What is your source for your opinion that bad decisions are the primary reason for poverty?

my source is myself. I don’t claim to have scientific evidence. It’s merely my opinion based on personal experience and common sense. However, there is plenty of available data that shows income levels based on years of education, and they are in line with what I am saying. If you disagree with me, what would be your source that bad decisions are not the primary reason?

 

[stinkcat_14]

my source is myself. I don’t claim to have scientific evidence. It’s merely my opinion based on personal experience and common sense. However, there is plenty of available data that shows income levels based on years of education, and they are in line with what I am saying. If you disagree with me, what would be your source that bad decisions are not the primary reason?

I am not making any claims, you are the one making the claim. I am just trying to figure out whether or not I should believe you. Since generalizing from your own experience is the weakest form of evidence, searching for more data would seem wise in this situation.

Now, you claim that income and education are correlated, but then again correlation is not causation. Is it education that is causing more income, or do people from higher income families get better education and thus better economic outcomes?

 

[madtom]

I am not making any claims, you are the one making the claim. I am just trying to figure out whether or not I should believe you. Since generalizing from your own experience is the weakest form of evidence, searching for more data would seem wise in this situation.

Now, you claim that income and education are correlated, but then again correlation is not causation. Is it education that is causing more income, or do people from higher income families get better education and thus better economic outcomes?

fair enough, but keep in mind I’m not trying to convince anyone…just offering my opinion.
you are absolutely correct that correlation is not causation, so I hesitate at using data as well, which is why I am focusing more on reason. Just think about it, and also, think to yourself what does it even mean to be poor. Can you fathom why anyone with a high school degree, with a willingness to work hard and stay out of trouble can’t at the very least attain a lower middle class lifestyle? not everyone will be rich, or even comfortable for that matter. we are simply talking about NOT POOR.

 

[St_Francis]

my source is myself. I don’t claim to have scientific evidence. It’s merely my opinion based on personal experience and common sense. However, there is plenty of available data that shows income levels based on years of education, and they are in line with what I am saying. If you disagree with me, what would be your source that bad decisions are not the primary reason?

Many studies have shown that the primary source if poverty is young, uneducated single parents. A huge amount of poverty could be eliminated if young people stayed in school and studied, and waited until after marriage to have children.

Both these things are the result of decisions the young people make themselves.

However, the environment they are in does nothing to show them the benefits of this self-discipline, and many who try to live in a self-disciplined way not only find no support, but find active antagonism towards their doing so.

Those who do not get out of the very poor area are those who lack the resources needed, and thus the cycle is repeated and even reinforced in their children. It’s a horrible downward cycle.

 

[St_Francis]

I would like to suggest a potentially unpopular move: to concentrate on the boys/young men rather than on the girls/young women.

One of the things the combination of feminism and social services’ neglect of families has done is to make men irrelevant. Women can either work or get support from the government, so why do we need men?

Why would people who feel entirely irrelevant even bother making an effort?

 

[midori]

In my town, you can get an ordinary house for $30-$60k. The average household income is about $35k at the moment… In other words, the cost of owning a house is equal to a year or two’s income, so pretty much anyone who is respectable at managing their money can be a homeowner if they want to. My tenants are the ones who can’t. To try and better understand them-- because time after time, I’m left feeling like I’m interacting with aliens from another planet-- I read Ruby Payne’s “A Framework for Understanding Poverty.” Which also helped me realize that the old-money-wealthy are just as alien to me and my middle-class perspectives as the chronically poor.

One of the things it did help me realize was that the people I was interacting with are often in survival mode. When your perspective of life is based on week-to-week, paycheck-to-paycheck, it’s survival mode… you don’t really have that luxury of long term plans. “I’m going to save 50% of my income and work full time and go to school online/at night so that three years from now we can get a job that pays $x and will be able to consider buying a house wherever our job turns out to be” worked out great for DH and myself… some of my tenants are on a similar path. Most don’t have that luxury.

Another thing was that farmer’s kids… learned about agriculture. Millers’ kids… learned about milling. Merchants’ kids… learned about trade. Carpenters’ kids… learned about construction. Nowadays, though, a lot of parents don’t teach their kids how to handle credit, how to live within their means, how to run a budget, etc. It doesn’t help that undergrad is the new high school… at least a high school diploma was normally free, but people are graduating from undergrad with six-digits’ worth of debt and entry-level jobs. That’s a hard disadvantage to overcome.

Back to Ruby Payne-- she identifies various resources that help people be successful. Impoverished people are under-resourced-- obvious ones like “financial”, but also less-obvious ones like “emotional”, “mental”, “spiritual”, “physical”, “support systems”, “relationships/role models”, “knowledge of hidden rules”, and “language”.

Not everyone who is impoverished is impoverished for the same reasons. But identifying and tackling broad issues such as “absent fathers” or “weak family” help contribute to strengthening multiple resources.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

In my town, you can get an ordinary house for $30-$60k. The average household income is about $35k at the moment… In other words, the cost of owning a house is equal to a year or two’s income, so pretty much anyone who is respectable at managing their money can be a homeowner if they want to

Where I live the typical house value is twice the typical income. But the typical house value is only 50% of what it was before the 2008 market crash. The average income level has dropped significantly since then too. It’s possible that some that made what we might consider to be responsible decisions with their money fell on hard times and have yet to recover from them. The loss in property value can occur because of no fault of an owner, but because there were enough people in the vicinity of the owner that experienced foreclosures.

For those that are less economically capable there are things that may be more expensive for them. Making more recent news is the cost that someone would have to pay for a simple (accidental) violation such as parking in the wrong area or going over the speed limit. For those economically well off it’s just a matter of paying a fine and moving one. For those for which this is a challenge such a small action can result in finance fees on fine, the expense of a probation officer for not having enough money to pay the fine, temporary or permanent loss of the vehicle, which can also have the consequence of one loosing their income.

I’m not suggesting there do not exist people that are irresponsible with their income, but I wanted to point out that being responsible doesn’t ensure one will be in a good position. There are other factors.

“I’m going to save 50% of my income and work full time and go to school online/at night so that three years from now we can get a job that pays $x and will be able to consider buying a house wherever our job turns out to be” worked out great for DH and myself… some of my tenants are on a similar path. Most don’t have that luxury.

School is also a significant cause of debt. I received my master’s degree just before the 2008 market crash and paid for school out of pocket with no loans, so I ended up in a good position. But during this period in which the job market wasn’t looking so well tuition prices were going up and some of the grants used to reduce student financial responsibility for school were diminishing. It was also becoming more difficult for students to find jobs post graduation. I didn’t make any significant financial decisions to help pay for my school and because of how things were that was fine. But not every one has had it as well.

Nowadays, though, a lot of parents don’t teach their kids how to handle credit, how to live within their means, how to run a budget, etc.

I do question how many parents have this skill themselves. Even among those that are doing okay around me I think there is a lot to be learned about finances and investments (ex: how many people do you think would know the meaning of the word “load” in a financial context if you asked them). Every one has their areas where financial knowledge could be improved.

It doesn’t help that undergrad is the new high school… at least a high school diploma was normally free, but people are graduating from undergrad with six-digits’ worth of debt and entry-level jobs. That’s a hard disadvantage to overcome.

In Georgia prior to 2007 College was free to residents that maintained a 3.0 GPA. That’s not the case any more. The college was being paid for in part by one of those grants that was drying up during and after 2008.

Not everyone who is impoverished is impoverished for the same reasons. But identifying and tackling broad issues such as “absent fathers” or “weak family” help contribute to strengthening multiple resources.

Interestingly enough, depending on the financial state of the parents there are cases where one’s tax (and thus financial) situation can be made worst by the parents becoming married. Note that unmarried doesn’t imply that the fathers are not participating in the lives of their children.

 

[Captain_America]

I think some of the effort has to be directed at high school students and young adults.

1. Controversial as it sounds continue sex ed programs (that also include abstinence as the best method). The teen birth rate has been on the decline for decades but teen mothers are mute likely to become single mothers.
2. find a way to include a home econ and parenting class in the high school curriculum.
3. adjust most of the existing social programs so that they don’t favor single parents as much.

Lastly, the problem is not something that social programs can do much about. The real question is how do you encourage both men and women to want too form families?

An okay stab at it. . .

I don’t think sex ed is controversial, but the content often is, often enough due to propagandizing teachers of both right and left wing sorts. . . the real challenge for successful sex ed HAS to be to find a way to discuss sex without encouraging sex among those who otherwise wouldn’t do it… . this is the trouble the DARE program has, with drug education, since it raises curiosities (and use) among those otherwise incurious kids who would probably be better off not taking heroin.

There’s much evidence to show that people model their behavior on what they view as socially acceptable. If it’s acceptable to have sex at age 10, then why complain?

It’s at this point that those of us who complain about the Damn TV Set or Hollywood really ARE making a cogent point in the discussion. EVERYONE by now, in 2015, has complained about Sex and Violence. We see the factual connection between glamorization of certain ideas and acts, and their spread in society. . . perhaps the real problem is that American society is itself SO thin and watery, that a handful of TV companies can subvert 330 million people.

the Home Econ idea is excellent. Here in IL, we have obligatory personal finance in HS. This fits with that.

The whole thing, as much as you and I might like not to say it, is that sex is disconnected from the broader context of family life—and family life benefits individuals as well as society.

 

[St_Francis]

In response to **Thinking Sapien, **whose post was too long for me to deal with in an iPod

One setback, like a ticket, a car repair, can lay a poor family out. We had a period when our finances were bad; we had a credit card to fall back on. Poor families often can’t do that–if their car breaks down, they miss work; they don’t have the money to fix it… it’s a spiral.

WRT tickets: I read that article (or one similar to it). Tickets should cost a certain percentage of income rather than a flat amount. For some people, the price of DUI is nothing, for others, a ticket for lapsed license plate is devastating. So some are overly punished and others are not punished enough.

And WRT marriage costing more… that is really bad. It should not be allowed. Marriage should be rewarded rather than penalized. (Of course, that would add fuel to the SSM situation )

 

[ThinkingSapien]

WRT tickets: I read that article (or one similar to it). Tickets should cost a certain percentage of income rather than a flat amount. For some people, the price of DUI is nothing, for others, a ticket for lapsed license plate is devastating. So some are overly punished and others are not punished enough.

I would be supportive of such fines being restructured And the removal of the additional fees associated with not being able to pay all at once.

Financially I am much better off than my parents were, but growing up I was able to experience the the impact that a seemingly small unexpected expense can have cascading impacts. Even now i continue to have friends and associates with multiple degrees that have experienced financial problems. A few experienced medical situations that lead to several months of lost wages. Another, already having emoyment challenges, was falsely accused of a crime by someone angry with her. While the state eventually dismissed the case the process of having the arrest record expunged took half a year during which the top search result for her name was the mug shot. During that period she could not get a job.

I’ve not seen anything suggesting they were not responsible with their money.

 

[Selah_KY]

I’m sorry, but I prefer to base my opinion on the real world instead of “studies.” My family is firmly middle class, as are most of my friends and family, and most of us are greatly affected by these issues.

That would be great, but you aren’t basing your opinion on the “real” world, but just your tiny little corner of it.

When I was in a less developed county, I met people who earned $2 a day. What bad decisions did they make that put them in poverty.

Since generalizing from your own experience is the weakest form of evidence, searching for more data would seem wise in this situation.

Exactly!

To try and better understand them-- because time after time, I’m left feeling like I’m interacting with aliens from another planet-- I read Ruby Payne’s “A Framework for Understanding Poverty.” Which also helped me realize that the old-money-wealthy are just as alien to me and my middle-class perspectives as the chronically poor.

Thanks! I put this in my Amazon cart. Another book that I enjoyed was The Working Poor: Invisible in America, by David K. Shipler.

Back to Ruby Payne-- she identifies various resources that help people be successful. Impoverished people are under-resourced-- obvious ones like “financial”, but also less-obvious ones like “emotional”, “mental”, “spiritual”, “physical”, “support systems”, “relationships/role models”, “knowledge of hidden rules”, and “language”.

The more I read and try to understand, the more I see that there can’t ever be a one-size-fits-all fix for poverty. So, in my place, I’ve chosen to meet each person where they are and concentrate on the relationship. And lots of prayers for God to make it REALLY clear to me when he’s putting someone in my path! (Do Catholics even think that way? )

Interestingly enough, depending on the financial state of the parents there are cases where one’s tax (and thus financial) situation can be made worst by the parents becoming married. Note that unmarried doesn’t imply that the fathers are not participating in the lives of their children.

This is VERY common in the rural area where I live. The parents don’t marry until the youngest child is in school (when benefits are severely reduced for the mom), even though they’ve been together for years. Without the marriage, only one parent’s income is counted for many programs.

 

[St_Francis]

That would be great, but you aren’t basing your opinion on the “real” world, but just your tiny little corner of it.



Exactly!

Thanks! I put this in my Amazon cart. Another book that I enjoyed was The Working Poor: Invisible in America, by David K. Shipler.

The more I read and try to understand, the more I see that there can’t ever be a one-size-fits-all fix for poverty.

I totally agree with you on this. I would also add that a personalized approach would help immensely. The approach we have now is kind of like if we only had 4 kinds of doctors, and they were only allowed to prescribe 2 kinds of treatment each!

So, in my place, I’ve chosen to meet each person where they are and concentrate on the relationship. And lots of prayers for God to make it REALLY clear to me when he’s putting someone in my path! (Do Catholics even think that way? )

Of course Catholics do–in fact, thst kind of thinking is what started many types of charitable institutions.

The thing is, being involved in a specific situation, like meeting a family in need of help, becoming a Big Sister or Big Brother, etc., is a completely different discussion than what society or the government should be doing in the way of helping people. Since we are currently dscussing the big picture rather than one individual situation, we are painting with a broad brush–no need for snark.

This is VERY common in the rural area where I live. The parents don’t marry until the youngest child is in school (when benefits are severely reduced for the mom), even though they’ve been together for years. Without the marriage, only one parent’s income is counted for many programs.

:? Maybe if they had waited until after they were in a position to have children, including after getting married, to have children, they wouldn’t have needed the benefits?

 

[Selah_KY]

Since we are currently dscussing the big picture rather than one individual situation, we are painting with a broad brush–no need for snark.

Huh? Snark? You’ve lost me now.

Maybe if they had waited until after they were in a position to have children, including after getting married, to have children, they wouldn’t have needed the benefits?

Possibly, but this is culture here. I live in the rural south where there is no union presence and wages are low. So, we can tell them to wait until they’re in their 30s or we can work for an increase in minimum wage, and better rules for benefits like food stamps and insurance.

 

[St_Francis]

Huh? Snark? You’ve lost me now.

“Do Catholics even think that way?” Maybe I took it the wrong way. I know sometimes I write something with a certain “tone of voice” which doesn’t come through–sorry if I misunderstoof you

Possibly, but this is culture here. I live in the rural south where there is no union presence and wages are low. So, we can tell them to wait until they’re in their 30s or we can work for an increase in minimum wage, and better rules for benefits like food stamps and insurance.

The minimum age is actually inimical to the poor.

The situation in rural areas is tricky. I have seen rural areas which are kind of like a miniature of Detroit: jobs started drying up due to increased mechanization and parents wanted more for their children so started encouraging to reach higher, which meant they had to move away to find work, which left those unable or unwilling to follow that path to get on the downward spiral. I personally know families with 3 consecutive generations on welfare–the younger ones honestly can’t sort themselves out. Very sad.

 

[Selah_KY]

“Do Catholics even think that way?”

I am a very new convert and I still think very much like and speak the language of the protestant world around me.