What started gay conversion therapy?

[frobert]

That’s exactly right Eddie.

“Conversion Therapy” is confusing and needs a new name. I think a lot of the bickering that goes on regarding conversion therapy is that one side “hears” one thing, while the other side means something else. The gay-sensitive side thinks the poorly-named “gay conversion” therapy means the person will completely lose any and all interest in homosexual acts. But really the goal of these therapies is to reduce and manage homosexual urges so the person can live a chaste life.

That is a very good description of pastoral counseling which most mental health professionals and most lay people find legitimate. On the other hand, the primary goal and expectation of conversion therapy is to change sexual orientation whether a the person is capable of change or not.

Here are requirements for Certified Pastoral Counselor by the Amer. Association of Pastoral Counselors

The standards for this membership category of certification include:

B.A. and a Master of Divinity or a Masters or Doctoral level degree in theological/spiritual or biblical studies, or a Masters or Doctoral level degree in Pastoral Counseling, from schools accredited by agencies recognized by the U.S. Department of Education

Religious body endorsement to ministry

Active relationship to a local religious community

Completion of a supervised self-reflective pastoral experience, the most common of which is one unit of clinical pastoral education

Three years in ministry

375 hours of pastoral counseling together with 125 hours of supervision of that counseling with one-third of such supervision to have been with an AAPC Diplomate, an AAPC Fellow (who is under supervision of supervision), or in an AAPC approved Training Program in Pastoral Counseling[/INDENT]

Do a search on “certification for conversion therapy” and see what the requirements are for practitioners of a therapy you favor.​

 

[St_Francis]

Our sexual identities as male and female.

There is no sex in the theological sense. We are born male or female. Some of us have an issue with what appears to be our biological sex from a source we have not yet determined, but sex in general is biological, not theological.

Pardon?

I thought you were referring to sexual attraction and was agreeing that it is fluid, and maybe even more fluid than we think. Upon refection, I think you might have been referring to one’s sex (male or female) in which case I think there is a lot of variation within each sex, but basically one is one or the other.

The site used to be filled with drivel both in terms of against science and the Church.

Well, I just checked out the one page, which seemed to be referencing at least some of what I had heard.

Marriage is overrated and I say this as a someone who views the Republican Party as a bunch of liberals.

Marriage is the formation of a new family, the foundation of our society and the source of its renewal. It’s not a problem if some people don’t want to get married, but you appear to want to impose your desires about marriage on everyone else.

 

[St_Francis]

That is a very good description of pastoral counseling which most mental health professionals and most lay people find legitimate. On the other hand, the primary goal and expectation of conversion therapy is to change sexual orientation whether a the person is capable of change or not.

Here are requirements for Certified Pastoral Counselor by the Amer. Association of Pastoral Counselors

The standards for this membership category of certification include:

B.A. and a Master of Divinity or a Masters or Doctoral level degree in theological/spiritual or biblical studies, or a Masters or Doctoral level degree in Pastoral Counseling, from schools accredited by agencies recognized by the U.S. Department of Education

Religious body endorsement to ministry

Active relationship to a local religious community

Completion of a supervised self-reflective pastoral experience, the most common of which is one unit of clinical pastoral education

Three years in ministry

375 hours of pastoral counseling together with 125 hours of supervision of that counseling with one-third of such supervision to have been with an AAPC Diplomate, an AAPC Fellow (who is under supervision of supervision), or in an AAPC approved Training Program in Pastoral Counseling[/INDENT]

Do a search on “certification for conversion therapy” and see what the requirements are for practitioners of a therapy you favor.
​

Having looked up more of what people put under this umbrella term, it seems to be wuite useless as it covers too much.

Banning “conversion therapy” would he throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Banning certain types of what is put under that umbrella term should perhaps be done across the board. Why would a painful physical consequence for an involuntary reaction be permitted for any reason? OTOH, if some people are suffering from SSAs in reaction to abuse or some other trauma, why should it be forbidden?​

 

[frobert]

Having looked up more of what people put under this umbrella term, it seems to be wuite useless as it covers too much.

Banning “conversion therapy” would he throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Banning certain types of what is put under that umbrella term should perhaps be done across the board. Why would a painful physical consequence for an involuntary reaction be permitted for any reason? OTOH, if some people are suffering from SSAs in reaction to abuse or some other trauma, why should it be forbidden?

It’s not banned for adults nor should it be. Unfortunately, only two or three states ban it for minors.

Caveat emptor

 

[St_Francis]

It’s not banned for adults nor should it be. Unfortunately, only two or three states ban it for minors.

Caveat emptor

But some young people do go through phases and then grow out of them. Not saying all or even many, but some. And some do this in reaction to or conjuction with some trauma. Should a non-shaming, non-harming form of therapy be *forbidden by law? *

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

There is no sex in the theological sense. We are born male or female. Some of us have an issue with what appears to be our biological sex from a source we have not yet determined, but sex in general is biological, not theological.

Our souls are also sexed/gendered.

I thought you were referring to sexual attraction and was agreeing that it is fluid, and maybe even more fluid than we think. Upon refection, I think you might have been referring to one’s sex (male or female) in which case I think there is a lot of variation within each sex, but basically one is one or the other.

Sexual attraction is fluid to some degree, and it appears to be more so in women than men.

There is indeed a lot of variation within them and then there are the poor transgender bastards for whom the body professes one sex and the brain another.

Well, I just checked out the one page, which seemed to be referencing at least some of what I had heard.

It used to be far worse.

Marriage is the formation of a new family, the foundation of our society and the source of its renewal. It’s not a problem if some people don’t want to get married, but you appear to want to impose your desires about marriage on everyone else.

It isn’t about some people not wanting to get married it is about that for a person to devote themselves more fully to God instead of pursuing earthly delights is a thing of beauty indeed.

Having looked up more of what people put under this umbrella term, it seems to be wuite useless as it covers too much.

Banning “conversion therapy” would he throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Banning certain types of what is put under that umbrella term should perhaps be done across the board. Why would a painful physical consequence for an involuntary reaction be permitted for any reason? OTOH, if some people are suffering from SSAs in reaction to abuse or some other trauma, why should it be forbidden?

The bans have only been for minors to prevent parents coercing children into it.

There is nothing wrong in those states with parents sending their children to see psychologists about sexual assault or other trauma.

 

[St_Francis]

Our souls are also sexed/gendered.

Our souls are a part of our entirety; they are not “also sexed;” the one sex a person is is throughout the whole person, which includes the soul.

Sexual attraction is fluid to some degree, and it appears to be more so in women than men.

Considering the substantial number of people who went through a period when they had strong attraction to members of their own sex who no longer experience that attraction, I would say that it is not something to be glossed over.

There is indeed a lot of variation within them and then there are the poor transgender bastards for whom the body professes one sex and the brain another.

There are also a sunstantial number of people who went through a period of gender dysmorphia, while at other times not believing themselves to be members of the opposite sex.

To cousel members os these groups as if the state were permanent, esp at an early age, would be wrong in more than one way.

It used to be far worse.

Oh, ok.

It isn’t about some people not wanting to get married it is about that for a person to devote themselves more fully to God instead of pursuing earthly delights is a thing of beauty indeed.

You seemed, by the way you worded your comments, to be denigrating the state of marriage, and in a way, you still are. God calls people to marriage, not all of us. If you are privelges to be among those called to a higer state, you must be very grateful; however, some are called to devote themselves to God *through *marriage and bring children into the world. Holiness is not limited to those who eschew “earthly delights.”

The bans have only been for minors to prevent parents coercing children into it.

So it’s all right for parents to decide to take their children to see counselors who will convince them to embrace their homosexuality or gender dysmorphia because it is a permanent state, their “identity,” and possibly even teach them how to manage the lifestyle, but not ok for parents to decide to take their children to counselors who might be able to help their children move out of having attractions to the same sex or beliefs that they are really members of the opposite sex?

There is nothing wrong in those states with parents sending their children to see psychologists about sexual assault or other trauma.

And if the counselor believes that the SSA or Gender Dysmophia stems from that abuse, would the counselor be arrested for committing conversion therapy when trying to help the child recover? Or just the parents for taking their child to the counselor?

 

[frobert]

But some young people do go through phases and then grow out of them. Not saying all or even many, but some. And some do this in reaction to or conjuction with some trauma. Should a non-shaming, non-harming form of therapy be *forbidden by law? *

Sexual behavior is fluid within sexual orientations and with time most people discover their orientation without any intervention.Those who experience anxiety or depression because they believe it is a sin could benefit from pastoral counseling. Those who have experienced trauma are better served by health professionals with appropriate education, training and experience.

There is no professionally recognized training or certification for conversion therapy, nor does it draw from a cumulative body knowledge. There is no specific training analogous to the behavioral therapies or analytic therapies which have been taught for about a century. Every legitimate (professionally recognized) mental health society/association has found it unethical for their members to provide conversion therapy. CT is not regulated, it is commonly advertised under the umbrella of life coaching and anyone can hang a single on their door claiming to be a conversion therapist.

For the record I believe that anyone, adult or minor, who is emotionally disturbed over their sexuality should seek appropriate counseling or therapy.

Caveat emptor

 

[rinnie]

I’ve heard plenty about the Evangelical Christian community pushing some form of “conversion” therapies for homosexuals in order to “change” their orientation from gay to straight. And from what I’ve seen here on CAF, most of us are strongly against that. What I want to know is what started this whole movement with Evangelicals? When did it all begin? And if it’s really as unsuccessful and harmful as it seems to be, then why do they continue with it?

I have never heard of it. But my theory on it is this. There is nothing out there like prayer. And I believe as the bible says there is no sin out there that God cannot fix.

I believe that when a person has these feelings like any feelings that are taught are a sin, that if they are sincere with the help of God can overcome them.

 

[frobert]

So it’s all right for parents to decide to take their children to see counselors who will convince them to embrace their homosexuality or gender dysmorphia because it is a permanent state, their “identity,” and possibly even teach them how to manage the lifestyle, but not ok for parents to decide to take their children to counselors who might be able to help their children move out of having attractions to the same sex or beliefs that they are really members of the opposite sex?

You misunderstand of what therapy for emotional disorders is. A good therapists treats the whole person not a piece of them. It is not like having surgery to move a tumor. As the therapy progresses the therapist and patient learn what is possible. If change is possible they will work towards change if not they will work towards accommodation which may be chastity. It is not what the therapist wants its what is possible and what the patient is capable of.

And if the counselor believes that the SSA or Gender Dysmophia stems from that abuse, would the counselor be arrested for committing conversion therapy when trying to help the child recover? Or just the parents for taking their child to the counselor?

You answered your own question. Conversion therapy is not about helping a child it is about what the counselor believes.

 

[mikekle]

I’ve heard plenty about the Evangelical Christian community pushing some form of “conversion” therapies for homosexuals in order to “change” their orientation from gay to straight. And from what I’ve seen here on CAF, most of us are strongly against that. What I want to know is what started this whole movement with Evangelicals? When did it all begin? And if it’s really as unsuccessful and harmful as it seems to be, then why do they continue with it?

I dont know how it started,but keep in mind, there are MANY people who this has saved, Ive seen many interviews with former homosexuals who said it was the best thing that happened to them.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Our souls are a part of our entirety; they are not “also sexed;” the one sex a person is is throughout the whole person, which includes the soul.

Before the Fall they would have assuredly lined up, but after the Fall they may not necessarily line up as a consequence of Original Sin.

Considering the substantial number of people who went through a period when they had strong attraction to members of their own sex who no longer experience that attraction, I would say that it is not something to be glossed over.

Check how many of the founders of Exodus stayed permanently heterosexual.

There are also a sunstantial number of people who went through a period of gender dysmorphia, while at other times not believing themselves to be members of the opposite sex.

To cousel members os these groups as if the state were permanent, esp at an early age, would be wrong in more than one way.

The more severe the gender dysphoria the more likely they are to stay that way.

You seemed, by the way you worded your comments, to be denigrating the state of marriage, and in a way, you still are. God calls people to marriage, not all of us. If you are privelges to be among those called to a higer state, you must be very grateful; however, some are called to devote themselves to God *through *marriage and bring children into the world. Holiness is not limited to those who eschew “earthly delights.”

Marriage is a lesser good than celibacy, this is a fact, nonetheless, marriage is still a good else celibacy would not be a good to pick, merely avoiding damnation.

Celibacy is for everyone who is strong enough to follow that path, but I freely admit it is better to marry than to burn as Paul had said.

Oh certainly, married people can attain holiness however notice how the canon of saints skews very strongly towards the celibate.

So it’s all right for parents to decide to take their children to see counselors who will convince them to embrace their homosexuality or gender dysmorphia because it is a permanent state, their “identity,” and possibly even teach them how to manage the lifestyle, but not ok for parents to decide to take their children to counselors who might be able to help their children move out of having attractions to the same sex or beliefs that they are really members of the opposite sex?

I have never advocated anyone taking their children to counselors to affirm being sexually active gay people. Parents forcing children into reparative therapy has hurt many people. Reparative therapy for GID hasn’t been shown to help people identify with their sexual assignment at birth.

And if the counselor believes that the SSA or Gender Dysmophia stems from that abuse, would the counselor be arrested for committing conversion therapy when trying to help the child recover? Or just the parents for taking their child to the counselor?

If they are trying to treat the sexual abuse then that is fine, the legal problem arises when counselors try to treat sexuality or being transgender as a mental illness.

I dont know how it started,but keep in mind, there are MANY people who this has saved, Ive seen many interviews with former homosexuals who said it was the best thing that happened to them.

I have seen many cases of people say they were saved and then after some time going right back to “the gay lifestyle” and admit the therapy never helped them, see Exodus.

 

[St_Francis]

You misunderstand of what therapy for emotional disorders is. A good therapists treats the whole person not a piece of them. It is not like having surgery to move a tumor. As the therapy progresses the therapist and patient learn what is possible. If change is possible they will work towards change if not they will work towards accommodation which may be chastity. It is not what the therapist wants its what is possible and what the patient is capable of.

But there are a lot of therapists would would *not *work towards an acoomodstion such as chastity, because the whole idea seems to be that persons suffering from SSA are somehow atomically different throughout and needs to embrace their sexuality, and of course the general idea in society is that people pretty much ought to have sex and a decision or recommendation in favor of chastity is cruel and deprivational (you mean they would be for idden tk express their love their entire life!?!?!?!).

You answered your own question. Conversion therapy is not about helping a child it is about what the counselor believes.

I should have worded that better: if a therapist were to diagnose the attractions of a minor patient to be the result of trauma, or even just a phase… would the therapist then be doing something illegal if he or she moved the patient in a new direction?

 

[Sarcelle]

There is no sex in the theological sense. We are born male or female. Some of us have an issue with what appears to be our biological sex from a source we have not yet determined, but sex in general is biological, not theological.

I thought you were referring to sexual attraction and was agreeing that it is fluid, and maybe even more fluid than we think. Upon refection, I think you might have been referring to one’s sex (male or female) in which case I think there is a lot of variation within each sex, but basically one is one or the other.

Well, I just checked out the one page, which seemed to be referencing at least some of what I had heard.

Marriage is the formation of a new family, the foundation of our society and the source of its renewal. It’s not a problem if some people don’t want to get married, but you appear to want to impose your desires about marriage on everyone else.

I experience the opposite. Marriage seems to be pushed on all people and if you are not married by a certain age accusations of homosexuality and other assorted weirdness start being hurled. I am sick of self-righteous married people who think they are automatically better than others due to the fact that they are married.

 

[St_Francis]

I experience the opposite. Marriage seems to be pushed on all people and if you are not married by a certain age accusations of homosexuality and other assorted weirdness start being hurled. I am sick of self-righteous married people who think they are automatically better than others due to the fact that they are married.

I absolutely positively do not want to do that, and if I have inadvertantly done so, I apologize.

In fact, I agree with you I think that, first, many vocations are missed because our society is not oriented towards Catholicism (ie, lots are missed because the people aren’t even Catholic, and even among Catholics there is only a small perecentage which takes vocations seriously), and 2. I think that the mismatch between what are person is expected to do in our society and what his or her calling may be contributes to a lot of dysfunction, and 3. I think a lot of people who are not called to marriage marry and are miserable and sometimes even make their families miserable.

Additionally, I think having the expectation that everyone will marry robs society of the good that those with religous vocations or simply with a vocation to the single life would bring to society if they weren’t trying to fit themselves into a vocation which doesn’t fit.

 

[St_Francis]

…Marriage is a lesser good than celibacy, this is a fact, nonetheless, marriage is still a good else celibacy would not be a good to pick, merely avoiding damnation.

Celibacy is for everyone who is strong enough to follow that path, but I freely admit it is better to marry than to burn as Paul had said.

Oh certainly, married people can attain holiness however notice how the canon of saints skews very strongly towards the celibate.

This is how you started out this part of our conversation:

Being able to maintain a heterosexual relationship **means very little to me **as celibacy is better than marriage and also that being “able to maintain a heterosexual relationship” doesn’t necessarily mean an improvement in quality of life either physically or spiritually.

**Marriage is overrated and I say this **as a someone who views the Republican Party as a bunch of liberals.

Perhaps you can see how I thought you were kind of ignoring people who might feel differently about their lives or who might actually be called to marriage.

While it is completely true that the religious life and dedicating oneself solely to God is indeed a higher calling, not all are called to that, and in fact, the majority are not called to that. We cannot talk about general trends in terms of special cases; we must take all into account.

 

[Rau]

Already as early as the 1850s, the German doctor Johann Ludwig Casper argued that for some people with same-sex attractions this is an innate, biological condition…

I don’t discard the possibility of biological influence for a second, but even if this is the case, same sex attraction is plainly a “malfunction”, a defect of some kind. The search for a means to correct the situation, by reinstating the sexual orientation appropriate to the body, is hardly surprising, though it may be quite futile.

 

[Rau]

You know, I actually think that it is true that people are innately attracted to certain people or sex. The church’s position (and what we have done wrong for a long time) is to condemn them and close off any hope of a possible reconciliation with God. My sister’s ex, the first time he heard about his daughter, said to her, “You’re going to hell.” How is that going to help her make a decision about her life and how she can make her life a blessing for God.

It’s clear in the Bible that it’s a sinful act but just as people live chaste lives as heterosexuals so can someone who is attracted to someone of the same sex. I read a blog and I LOST the website address of a man and woman who were married and had children. He said that he struggles with same sex attractions but he wanted to live his life in the manner that Christ would have him live it.

We have to stop denouncing people for their sins because we have sin in our own lives that may not be as upsetting (couldn’t find the right word) and lead them to the path of Jesus and help them choose a path that will build their spiritual journey with Him.

The same sex attraction may be innate (or not), but in any case the Church does not condemn anyone for experiencing it as your first para states.

 

[Thorolfr]

I don’t discard the possibility of biological influence for a second, but even if this is the case, same sex attraction is plainly a “malfunction”, a defect of some kind. The search for a means to correct the situation, by reinstating the sexual orientation appropriate to the body, is hardly surprising, though it may be quite futile.

Is being left handed also a “malfunction” or a “defect”? They used to try to force left-handed children to write with their right hands. But perhaps it isn’t a defect but just a normal variation in human-handedness for some people. Perhaps SSA is also just a normal variation for some people in human sexuality.

 

[Rau]

Is being left handed also a “malfunction” or a “defect”? They used to try to force left-handed children to write with their right hands. But perhaps it isn’t a defect but just a normal variation in human-handedness for some people. Perhaps SSA is also just a normal variation for some people in human sexuality.

A man, equipped biologically as a man, producing sperm, yet desiring to exchange it with a man, is a fundamental inconsistency. The desires are at odds with the body.

There may be a practical benefit in being right-handed, given most people are that, and right-handed products are a little more common. But given the symmetry of the body, I can’t see a basis to view it as a defect. One hand is not specifically formed for throwing s ball or holding a pen. On the other hand (excuse the pun ), our sexual organs are evidently purposed.