What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic

[SteveGC]

The recurring theme, in the passage you have provided, is Jesus telling Peter,“Feed MY sheep”! I don’t believe you can make a case for Jesus turning over His title of Shepherd to Peter

Let’s see. The One True Shepherd is talking to Peter on the heels of revelation that He (Jesus) is going to leave them. And this Shepherd, who is leaving the earth, tells Peter, who will remain on earth, to feed His sheep, which is what a shepherd is supposed to do.

And a case can’t be made?

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

benedictus2:

I have another idea that might help explain what I am trying to say. From a Catholic perspective, the Orthodox and Protestant churches all teach some things that are incorrect. Would you say that Hell has prevailed against these churches, or would you say, as I have been suggesting as a possibility, that they are suffering from the enemy’s attacks, but have not yet been completely defeated. Hypothetically, the Orthodox Church (to give one example), could reunite with the Catholic Church someday. If it can still be saved and restored to the fullness of truth, then this must mean that its defeat is not complete.

 

[Cinette]

This thread has become extremely boring!

 

[benedictus2]

benedictus2:

I have another idea that might help explain what I am trying to say. From a Catholic perspective, the Orthodox and Protestant churches all teach some things that are incorrect. Would you say that Hell has prevailed against these churches, or would you say, as I have been suggesting as a possibility, that they are suffering from the enemy’s attacks, but have not yet been completely defeated. Hypothetically, the Orthodox Church (to give one example), could reunite with the Catholic Church someday. If it can still be saved and restored to the fullness of truth, then this must mean that its defeat is not complete.

With the Orthodox, as far as I know they do not have any doctrinal error. The schism is more political than anything.

Since Christ did not make the promise of hell not prevailing against these churches then I don’t really know how they fit into the equation. None of them is the church that Christ founded so the question does not apply. For sure however, the father of lies hold sway over them. He did warn those that there will be those who will come later who will preach a different gospel and these churches have done that.

As po18guy put it: The Holy Spirit unites, the devil divides.

As for restoration into the fullness of truth, it will not be the Church that will be restored into the fullness of truth because the Church has the fullness of truth. It is the members coming from these other churches who join the Catholic church who will be restored to the fullness of truth not their church. Their church as long as they stand separate to the Catholic Church will not have the fullness of truth.

 

[1beleevr]

Steve: Yours are still some of the most level headed, calm posts coming from catholics; even if I don’t always agree! Where I am now in my Christian walk, the voice I “hear” is that of the Shepherd(Jesus), not Peter, not the pope, or any man! This happens mostly when I am fasting, or preparing to dp street ministry or an community outreach for Christ! Which begs the question, what is the catholic church’s position on this type of ministry? I mean if you really stretch it, couldn’t you say that what the apostles were doing amounted to “street ministry”? I mean they weren’t always in the Temple, when preaching "The gatekeeper opens the gate for Him, and the sheep recognize His voice, and come to Him."John 10:3:thumbsup:

 

[benedictus2]

benedictus2:

I have another idea that might help explain what I am trying to say. From a Catholic perspective, the Orthodox and Protestant churches all teach some things that are incorrect. Would you say that Hell has prevailed against these churches, or would you say, as I have been suggesting as a possibility, that they are suffering from the enemy’s attacks, but have not yet been completely defeated. Hypothetically, the Orthodox Church (to give one example), could reunite with the Catholic Church someday. If it can still be saved and restored to the fullness of truth, then this must mean that its defeat is not complete.

Hi lambic Pen,

I have been giving your post a bit more thought and here is a second reply.

If the Church were to teach even one single error then yes the gates of hell has prevailed because IT IS CHRIST’S CHURCH. If Christ’s church can be overtaken by the father of lies then there will be nothing here on earth to point us towards truth. Right now she is the one and only bastion of truth.

When Christ gave that promise there are other churches and faiths in existence but you cannot say that the gates of hell prevailed over these churches. They are not part of the equation so it is not necessary for them to have the fullness of Truth because the Church already has that.

So the other Christian denominations could teach error as much as they like and it will not matter because they are just cut off branches of the Catholic Church. Their very existence is a result of a departure from truth whether major or minor.

And that is what is interesting. Once they depart from truth, they are cut off from the Catholic Church. In one sense it was necessary for them to be separated for their lie and the Church’s truth cannot co exist side by side in the same church.

Btw, I like your posts. They’re very well thought through and I truly like well reasoned arguments. Kudos!

 

[1beleevr]

I’m just a dumb old nondenominational Christian brother, but even I know Orange Man is talking about catholics I mean, it is on your forum heading:blush:

 

[benedictus2]

I’m just a dumb old nondenominational Christian brother, but even I know Orange Man is talking about catholics I mean, it is on your forum heading:blush:

What post is this in reply to?

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

tqualey: Greetings to you, in the Name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ! Craig and I are not necessarily a part of the same denomination(non-denominational for me), but we do think a lot alike! And, I believe that by accepting Christ as our Saviour, we already have our passes! If God had wanted me to be a catholic, I would have been one by now! To put it bluntly, I have been turned off to the catholic church, by those catholics that I have known and befriended(friends with many, before I knew they were catholic). Many of them are very arrogant and condescending(which doesn’t mean you all are). My former fiance was raised catholic, and changed over to nondenominational, all on her own! So, my brother in Christ, I for one am secure in my salvation, and have been for 42 years; no catholicism necessary! And as far as I know, the only verse that catholics use to validate their religion(a despicable word, to say the least), is Matthew 16:18, which of course is still up for debate, amongst non catholics But, tqualey, rejoice in your choice, and we shall rejoice in ours! The most important choice I ever made was on May 15, 1967, when I gave my life to Jesus! Romans 8:31-39

Thank you 1beleevr,

I thought that post was superbly expressed. This is my position entirely and precisely.

I already have my “PASS” in the heavenly councils. It is not by works of righteousness that I have done but by His great mercy He saved me; by the washing of SPIRITUAL REGENERATION and the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

The problem that I have with the Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation is that it never offers to anyone the CERTAINTY of salvation. How differently the scriptures present the awesome salvation of Christ. The scriptures CLEARLY AFFIRM that all who genuinely come to Christ, repenting of their sin and trusting deeply in the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS AS THE ONLY WAY OF SALVATION will be saved. The biblical view of salvation is that it is a passing from DEATH unto LIFE.

I was saved by God’s grace alone on Friday 18th November 1977. Praise God! What a Mighty Saviour is Jesus Christ my Lord! I know that my name is in the LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE!

I am not interested in “religion” per se whether Roman Catholic or Protestant. I am, furthermore, under no pressure to defend or promote “Protestantism” as such. I am, however, under the direct orders of God to declare the UNSEARCHABLE RICHES OF CHRIST.

There is no other Name under Heaven by which humans must be saved, but the Marvellous Name of Jesus.

Cheers, In Christ Craig

 

[joe370]

1beleevr - And I still believe that the only three whom are infallible, are, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit!

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NO ONE OTHER THAN THE TRINITY, IS INFALLIBLE!!! ALL HUMANS ARE SINFUL AND FALLIBLE; REMOVE THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE CHURCH TO WHICH JESUS IS THE HEAD AND SAVIOR, AND JESUS’ ESTABLISHED CHURCH CIRCA 33 AD… THE BRIDE OF CHRIST, LOSES HER INFALLIBILITY STATUS, VIS-A-VIS FAITH AND MORALS.

As for Peter, we all know that Jesus was speaking to Peter, as to “feeding His sheep”. But we also know, that Peter died a horrible martyr’s death and so the job of feeding the sheep was taken up by other Christians: And of course, we know that He didn’t just mean “feed” them materially! He meant spiritually also!

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AGREED…“the job of feeding the sheep was taken up by other Christians.”

Today, because of Christ’s death on the Cross, and subsequent resurrection, and His exhortation in Matthew 28:19-20, we are ALL to feed the sheep; to carry rhe message of hope and Good News to all ends of the earth!

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SO, WE ARE ALL TEACHERS? WHEN JESUS SAID, TAKE IT TO THE CHURCH TO RESOLVE ISSUES, HE IS TALKING ABOUT YOU AND ME…ANYONE, VIA PRIVATE INTERPRETATION OF THE HOLY BIBLE??

The pope is not Christ on earth, nor do we heed his teachings; they are for catholics only:thumbsup:

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WHO TOLD YOU THAT THE POPE IS JESUS CHRIST ON EARTH??? WOW, JUST WHEN YOU THINK YOU’VE HEARD IT ALL!!! WHEN YOU SAY WE, TO WHOM ARE YOU REFERRING; DO YOU HEED THE TEACHINGS OF SOMEONE ELSE, OR ARE YOU THE FINAL ARBITER, VIS-A-VIS THE DOCTRINES FOUND IN THE HOLY BIBLE??? HOW MANY CHURCHES DID JESUS CHRIST BUILD, CIRCA 33 AD? WHICH CHURCH {LETS ASSUME FOR THE MOMENT, THAT IT’S NOT THE C.C.} --IN THE WORLD TODAY EXISTED WHEN JESUS SAID:

“…and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.” MATTHEW 16

“If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” MATTHEW 18

 

[Cinette]

Hi lambic Pen,

I have been giving your post a bit more thought and here is a second reply.

If the Church were to teach even one single error then yes the gates of hell has prevailed because IT IS CHRIST’S CHURCH. If Christ’s church can be overtaken by the father of lies then there will be nothing here on earth to point us towards truth. Right now she is the one and only bastion of truth.

When Christ gave that promise there are other churches and faiths in existence but you cannot say that the gates of hell prevailed over these churches. They are not part of the equation so it is not necessary for them to have the fullness of Truth because the Church already has that.

So the other Christian denominations could teach error as much as they like and it will not matter because they are just cut off branches of the Catholic Church. Their very existence is a result of a departure from truth whether major or minor.

And that is what is interesting. Once they depart from truth, they are cut off from the Catholic Church. In one sense it was necessary for them to be separated for their lie and the Church’s truth cannot co exist side by side in the same church.

Btw, I like your posts. They’re very well thought through and I truly like well reasoned arguments. Kudos!

This is an excellent presentation Benedictus.

I also appreciate Arial.

Thank you

 

[1beleevr]

benedictus2: I know that this is a catholic forum, and the focus is to promote the catholic lifestyle, and further the movement!:shrug:But, when you open the forum to all-comers, you have to expect resistance and friction, from non-catholics! Most or all of us do not accept the pope as vicar of Christ; he is just you religion’s leader!I have the utmost respect for the pope, and the catholic church, but in your equation, disagreement+doubt= hate I have tried to read catholic lierature, until my head literally hurtI have listened to and corresponded with catholic apologetics; atleast until I heard, I believe it was Jim Blackburn say that the thief on the cross, who Jesus promised would be with Him in Paradise, could never have happenedThe apologetic’s reasoning was because the thief would not have had time to come down and be saved and baptized! To me, this was one the greatest displays of grace ever!!!:thumbsup:My curiosity about the catholic religion was piqued, by catholic friends whom I have had(sometimes quite heated) discussions with about religion or things spiritual! Joining this forum, was more a matter of exchanging ideas, and learning more about why you guys believe what you believe!I know I come across as ignorant and arrogant, but please believe me, I love the Lord, as much or more than the next Christian! My walk has not always been perfect, but then whose has?Phillippians 1:6 So, I guess we both make darn sure we have the full armor of God on, and get back in the fight, I mean forum!

 

[joe370]

1BELEEVR, YOU SAID TO TQUALEY:

Greetings to you, in the Name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ! Craig and I are not necessarily a part of the same denomination(non-denominational for me), but we do think a lot alike! And, I believe that by accepting Christ as our Saviour, we already have our passes!

SO, NO NEED TO PICK UP OUR CROSSES AND FOLLOW JESUS?

If God had wanted me to be a catholic, I would have been one by now! To put it bluntly, I have been turned off to the catholic church, by those catholics that I have known and befriended(friends with many, before I knew they were catholic). Many of them are very arrogant and condescending(which doesn’t mean you all are). My former fiance was raised catholic, and changed over to nondenominational, all on her own! So, my brother in Christ, I for one am secure in my salvation, and have been for 42 years; no catholicism necessary! And as far as I know, the only verse that catholics use to validate their religion(a despicable word, to say the least), is Matthew 16:18, which of course is still up for debate, amongst non catholics But, tqualey, rejoice in your choice, and we shall rejoice in ours! The most important choice I ever made was on May 15, 1967, when I gave my life to Jesus! Romans 8:31-39

YOU THINK THE WORDS: “and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”
–IS STILL UP FOR DEBATE? YOU DON’T BELIEVE JESUS??? IF YOU DON’T MIND ME ASKING, TO WHICH CHURCH DO YOU BELONG? HEY, 1967 WAS A GOOD YEAR; I WAS BORN THAT YEAR. LOL LOL…

IS PROTESTANTISM NECESSARY? IS THE CHURCH TO WHICH CHRIST IS THE HEAD AND SAVIOR, NECESSARY? IF SO, CAN YOU RECOMMEND A CHURCH? REMEMBER, JESUS’ CHURCH WAS ESTABLISHED IN JERUSALEM, ON PENTECOST, CIRCA 33 AD, AND, AS PER THE HOLY BIBLE, THE BRIDE OF CHRIST CANNOT FAIL, SINCE CHRIST HIMSELF IS THE CHURCH --HIS BODY, TO WHICH HE IS THE HEAD AND SAVIOR; HIS CHURCH IS BEING GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT IN PERPETUITY; HIS CHURCH IS WHERE THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH CAN BE FOUND, AS PER SCRIPTURE, AND FINALLY, HIS CHURCH IS THE HOUSE OF THE LIVING GOD.

DID YOU REALLY JUST CALL MATTHEW 16:18, THE WORDS OF GOD, DESPICABLE?

 

[Thorwald]

benedictus2:

I have another idea that might help explain what I am trying to say. From a Catholic perspective, the Orthodox and Protestant churches all teach some things that are incorrect. Would you say that Hell has prevailed against these churches, or would you say, as I have been suggesting as a possibility, that they are suffering from the enemy’s attacks, but have not yet been completely defeated. Hypothetically, the Orthodox Church (to give one example), could reunite with the Catholic Church someday. If it can still be saved and restored to the fullness of truth, then this must mean that its defeat is not complete.

I have read so many comments in this forum, and am totally amazed. All churches exist because of memberships. Each member will be judged by God against His Word. If a ‘member’ of one church wishes to meet with a member of another church in order to discuss God’s Word, and pray together, is this evil? No church ‘owns’ the Word of God. If a person lives their lives as requested by Christ, and chooses to not be a member of any church, will this person go to hell? Only God can judge a person’s heart. He will judge each person against that which He has taught us. We judge people based on a very limited personal knowledge of their lives. We have no knowledge as to whether they are being chastised, tested for worthiness, or in some cases, turned over to a reprobate mind. Every congregation in the world, probably consists of some members falling into these different categories. Although different congregations follow different ‘doctrines’, it is the individual members that will be judged in the end. Part of their judgment will be doctrine related. If the doctrines are not following the Word of God, then the teachers become ‘false prophets’. Each member, should be praying for answers from God, if they become unsure as to the validity of what they are forced to follow. Solomon provides a very good example of this.

Thorwald Johansen

 

[benedictus2]

I have read so many comments in this forum, and am totally amazed. All churches exist because of memberships.

Totally wrong. That may be true of protestant denominations but not of the Catholic Church. She exists because she was founded by Christ.

No mere human being started the Catholic Church in rebellion against another church.

 

[1beleevr]

Why benedictus2, I am surprised that you don’t remember Orange Man saying, "You guys need to get a new slogan!"I believe he was referring to your slogan, Pillar of Truth, Pillar of Fire

 

[Thorwald]

Totally wrong. That may be true of protestant denominations but not of the Catholic Church. She exists because she was founded by Christ.

No mere human being started the Catholic Church in rebellion against another church.

If a church has no members, will it still exist? I know that God’s Word still remains.

 

[Cinette]

COLOR]

benedictus2: I know that this is a catholic forum, and the focus is to promote the catholic lifestyle, and further the movement!:shrug:But, when you open the forum to all-comers, you have to expect resistance and friction, from non-catholics! Most or all of us do not accept the pope as vicar of Christ; he is just you religion’s leader!I have the utmost respect for the pope, and the catholic church, but in your equation, disagreement+doubt= hate I have tried to read catholic lierature, until my head literally hurtI have listened to and corresponded with catholic apologetics; atleast until I heard, I believe it was Jim Blackburn say that the thief on the cross, who Jesus promised would be with Him in Paradise, could never have happenedThe apologetic’s reasoning was because the thief would not have had time to come down and be saved and baptized! To me, this was one the greatest displays of grace ever!!!:thumbsup:My curiosity about the catholic religion was piqued, by catholic friends whom I have had(sometimes quite heated) discussions with about religion or things spiritual! Joining this forum, was more a matter of exchanging ideas, and learning more about why you guys believe what you believe!I know I come across as ignorant and arrogant, but please believe me, I love the Lord, as much or more than the next Christian! My walk has not always been perfect, but then whose has?Phillippians 1:6 So, I guess we both make darn sure we have the full armor of God on, and get back in the fight, I mean forum!

Hi 1beleevr!

I tell you what I believe:

• I believe you love God very much
• I believe you are a loyal Christian
• I believe you had some bad Catholic friends (according to your description)
• I believe you do not read the postings by Catholics - you quickly scan them (like Craig)

I do understand and accept that we are bound to clash because we are different. Yet we have some beliefs in common. Of course when you say “I am saved” I think that it doesn’t make sense because we have not yet arrived at our destination. You have accepted salvation and provided you live out your life like Jesus recommended in Matt 25:31-… then you will be saved. You yield to the Holy Spirit but you do not listen…

Protestants love Jesus and the Bible but they do not interpret and follow the Bible as they should.

Please don’t think there is any hate here if we hit you over the head with our Bibles!! LOL

I believe that we should debate in order to progress in our discussions. Name calling is ugly and frustrating.

Cinette

 

[benedictus2]

benedictus2: I know that this is a catholic forum, and the focus is to promote the catholic lifestyle, and further the movement!:shrug:But, when you open the forum to all-comers, you have to expect resistance and friction, from non-catholics! Most or all of us do not accept the pope as vicar of Christ; he is just you religion’s leader!I have the utmost respect for the pope, and the catholic church, but in your equation, disagreement+doubt= hate

I absolutely have no problem withe friction or with you not believing in the pope or any Catholic doctrine at all. Hey, you are not Catholic why should you believe what is Catholic?

The only thing I wish (notice the word wish) is that when they put objections through they actually put together a proper argument.

Some of the objection proposed in this thread I say are arrogant because it just says the Catholic church should do away with this and that doctrine without even explaining why? That is why I disliked Janet’s list.

When you start writing like that it becomes a “it is wrong because I say so”.

Little Sage is an atheist of some sort I think but I like her posts as well because when she posts she actually supports her objection with a reason. You know that she has given it some thought.

Some protestants think that to dump passages from the Bible is enough explanation for their position but it is not. You need to explain why.

I have tried to read catholic lierature, until my head literally hurtI have listened to and corresponded with catholic apologetics; atleast until I heard, I believe it was Jim Blackburn say that the thief on the cross, who Jesus promised would be with Him in Paradise, could never have happenedThe apologetic’s reasoning was because the thief would not have had time to come down and be saved and baptized! To me, this was one the greatest displays of grace ever!!!:thumbsup:My curiosity about the catholic religion was piqued, by catholic friends whom I have had(sometimes quite heated) discussions with about religion or things spiritual! Joining this forum, was more a matter of exchanging ideas, and learning more about why you guys believe what you believe!I know I come across as ignorant and arrogant, but please believe me, I love the Lord, as much or more than the next Christian! My walk has not always been perfect, but then whose has?Phillippians 1:6 So, I guess we both make darn sure we have the full armor of God on, and get back in the fight, I mean forum!

I don’t know who Jim Blackburn is and can’t comment on what he said. I agree with you that the promise given to the thief was one of the greatest displays of grace. As one priest once commented "what could have made the thief think that this man stripped of his clothing, about to die an ignominious death could possibly have a kingdom? More to the point that this kingdom will be beyond this world?

I have absolutely no doubt you love the Lord. That I am 100% sure of.

But that is not what is in question here. Aside from the atheists, I would say that everyone in this forum love the Lord.

Ultimately it boils down to the hows and whys of salvation.

We all believe we salvation is by grace. Well believe that Christ died only once for our sins. But that is not as simple as it looks. The hows and whys matter because this is where error creeps in.

If you have the chance read Scott and Kimberley Hahn’s Rome Sweet Home. He was one of the staunchest anti-Catholic along with his friend Jerry Matatics. He knows all your objections having been there done that.

I might post a link later of some interviews which you can download in MP3 format. These are interviews with converts who have come to learn that the Catholic Church is indeed the pillar and foundation of truth after much study.

One very erudite convert, Thomas Howard, I think took ten years to convert but in the end he had to accept that the Catholic is indeed who she claims she is.

 

[joe370]

Where I am now in my Christian walk, the voice I “hear” is that of the Shepherd(Jesus), not Peter, not the pope, or any man! This happens mostly when I am fasting, or preparing to dp street ministry or an community outreach for Christ!Which begs the question, what is the catholic church’s position on this type of ministry? I mean if you really stretch it, couldn’t you say that what the apostles were doing amounted to “street ministry”? I mean they weren’t always in the Temple, when preaching: "The gatekeeper opens the gate for Him, and the sheep recognize His voice, and come to Him."John 10:3:thumbsup:

The Catholic Church, is the world’s largest Christian church, representing over half of all Christians and one-sixth of the world’s population. The Catholic Church is a communion of 23 particular churches. Among these are the Western Rite (Latin Rite) and Eastern Catholic Churches comprising 2,782 dioceses. The community is made up of an ordained ministry and the laity. She is the only church, well, other than the E.O.C., that can trace her origin, all the way back to Pentecost; that is where she derives her universality!!! The One Catholic Church defines her mission as spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ, as per scripture…administering the sacraments and exercising charity, just as the church did for the 300 years, under the constant onslaught of the Roman empire. **It operates social programs and institutions throughout the world, including schools, universities, hospitals, missions and shelters, as well as organizations such as Catholic Relief Services, and Catholic Charities that help the poor, families, the elderly and the sick. **That is the catholic position!

Jesus said to His fledgling church:

“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

You said:

“the voice I “hear” is that of the Shepherd(Jesus), not Peter, not the pope, or any man!”

Why did Jesus send forth into the world, teachers, commanding them to teach all… to teach all to observe all, that Jesus commanded, if we are to take it directly to Christ? When Christians, belonging to the C.C., take it to the church, as per scripture, we are taking it directly to Christ, for Christ is the church, to which He is the head and Savior; the bible tells us that Jesus loves His established church. [circa 33 AD] After Jesus ascended into heaven, did new brothers and sisters in Christ become part of Jesus’ Mystical Body, the church…did they adhere to what sinful, fallible teachers, had to say --e.g. the apostles and their disciples, upon their demise, and so on and so on --until Jesus’ return?