What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic

[benedictus2]

guanophore:

*I don’t think this is fair or charitable. She answered the OP, which was basically asking “what teachings of the Church keep you from joining”. I don’t think the OP was worded very well, because I agree, if these teachings were changed, the Church could no longer be Catholic. But the list of reservations is honest, and I do not think should be belittled. What is the point of posting the question, then telling someone their answer is “stupid”? *

Yes I do realize that my post was uncharitable but there is no getting away from the fact that it is stupid.

What makes it totally stupid is the last line. What is a religion without a belief in God?

She is in effect saying that if the Catholic Church became atheist she/he would become Catholic. But if that were so there is no need for him/her to cease to be atheist.

And that is why I still say that rationality eluded him/her.

At least the others said Mary or Confession or some other particular Catholic doctrine which does not stop the Catholic Church from still being a religion if she were to drop these doctrines.

I think my post above could best be explained with this analogy.

The OP asked: “For you to move into this house, which part of it would you change.”

Some like Janet or Craig said if we do away with this awning, this window or this porch I would be very happy to live in this house.

But phantasm said, if we do away with this awning, porch, wall, roof, in fact if we raze this house to the ground and cart all that debris away to the tip, I would consider living in this house.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

I would point you to the quotation here. (I would repost it, except that I’ve already posted it a couple times, and I don’t want to start annoying people. )

Thanks! I’ve read that quote a few times myself, though always in the context of Orthodoxy explaining itself, not Catholicism explaining itself. Interesting, though…

 

[LittleSage]

Hi, LittleSage,

Yes, there are many beautiful Catholic Churches.

Homosexuality as an issue to change is an interesting item.

While the Bible (both OT & NT) do not given practicing homosexuals any latitude… the inspired authors are equally critical of those who commit fornication and/or adultery. Anyone who practices sexual immorality is not in conformity with God’s Divine Plan for the Human Race.

To the best of my knowledge, the CC has always had the position of hating the sin but loving the sinner…because we are all sinners that Christ came to save. Those who insist in practicing their sin - whatever it may be - are simply stating that they would rather have sin then God. And, that is what free will is all about: there are consequences for every action.

Would you be having this issue with the CC on fornication or adultary - or, for that matter, those who have sex with children, animals or the dead!? A line has clearly been drawn by God, announced by His Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) and spelled out clearly in the Bible. The only real question is, where do you stand in relaitonship to that line.

God bless,

The reason I feel that the stance against homosexuality is flawed is because of this:

The verse is…

“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” Lev. 18:22

And in that same passage it says that you can sell your daughter into slavery, and stone your wife if she cheats on you.

My point is that that particular passage is taken out of context because it’s listing taboos of the times. By reading the other 2 things I listed as in that passage (and there are others too) you can obviously see where I’m coming from. I highly doubt you condone child slavery or stoning.

And this is why I don’t consider homosexuality an abomination: Because it is based on love, and God is love. And also because the verse against it is out of context.

(You asked! )

Oh, and by the way, if anyone replies to this and disagrees with me, please be nice. My dad’s gay, so I may take it badly if you’re harsh about it.)

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

The reason I feel that the stance against homosexuality is flawed is because of this:

The verse is…

“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” Lev. 18:22

And in that same passage it says that you can sell your daughter into slavery, and stone your wife if she cheats on you.

My point is that that particular passage is taken out of context because it’s listing taboos of the times. By reading the other 2 things I listed as in that passage (and there are others too) you can obviously see where I’m coming from. I highly doubt you condone child slavery or stoning.

And this is why I don’t consider homosexuality an abomination: Because it is based on love, and God is love. And also because the verse against it is out of context.

(You asked! )

Oh, and by the way, if anyone replies to this and disagrees with me, please be nice. My dad’s gay, so I may take it badly if you’re harsh about it.)

I’ll be nice. As far as Scripture goes, there is also this:

*Romans 1:18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

** 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.**

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.*

Paul affirms the traditional opposition to homosexual behavior, so one cannot just label it as an ancient Jewish taboo that is no longer applicable. Christianity continued to teach the immorality of homosexuality, while no longer affirming old cultural practices such as selling daughters into slavery or stoning unfaithful wives.

Some things changed with the New Testament, but the prohibition of homosexual behavior did not.

 

[1beleevr]

40,001 denominations, counting the catholics!

 

[1beleevr]

There is one thing the pope has that renders him fallible:F-L-E-S-H!!!

 

[LittleSage]

I’ll be nice. As far as Scripture goes, there is also this:

*Romans 1:18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

** 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.***

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Paul affirms the traditional opposition to homosexual behavior, so one cannot just label it as an ancient Jewish taboo that is no longer applicable. Christianity continued to teach the immorality of homosexuality, while no longer affirming old cultural practices such as selling daughters into slavery or stoning unfaithful wives.

Some things changed with the New Testament, but the prohibition of homosexual behavior did not.

Thanks for showing me that. I hadn’t seen any other verses referring to that before. (That wasn’t sarcasm lol) I will still respectfully disagree ethically, though. Hey, I guess that’s why I’m not a Christian anymore! lol A lot of the ethics (like this) always made me feel really uncomfortable. I just never understood how, if God is love, then why is a relationship based on love that happens to be between two people of the same sex an abomination? It just doesn’t make any sense to me, and so far no one’s been able to give me an answer besides “because the bible says so.”

And on that note, how can someone just be okay with that answer? “Because the bible says so.” or “We weren’t meant to understand.” All that makes me feel is that either things are being kept from me, or that they can’t give me a better reason.

By the way, this is one of the biggest things that made me question Christianity when I was a kid, so big brownie points if you can give me a decent answer!

 

[1beleevr]

Ralphinal: I think only catholics see the pope as the leader of Christianity; non-Christians could probably care less! All believers, who have accepted Christ as their personal Saviour, and been baptized(full immersion, as was Jesus) in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit(Matthew 28:20) are part of the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ! And you would have to ask Paul about the all have sinned declaration, as he wrote the letter to the Romans!

 

[Cinette]

I totally agree with the sentiments of this post. This is EXACTLY what I have been at pains to point out since I first came on this forum.

Salvation is always by GOD’S GRACE ALONE; this is why there are true Christians who are ‘Catholics’ and true Christians who are affiliated under various ‘denominational labels’. The Lord knows those who are His. There is only ONE, TRUE UNIVERSAL CHURCH which was founded by Jesus Christ on the Day of Pentecost. This Church is a SPIRITUAL ORGANISM which is INTIMATELY CONNECTED to Christ through REGENERATION AND THE NEW BIRTH. There is no other Church!

Christ commanded his disciples in Matt 28:19-20 to teach all he had given them:
*
19”Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."*

This is Jesus’ promise which he will keep always.

Jesus empowered the Apostles and gave them authority in Lk 10:16 Jesus when he said
*
“Whoever listens to you, listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me.” *

Here we were told that those listening to the authority of the Church are listening to Christ himself. As the Word spread throughout the world there was a need for a central authority. Remember that the heretics were there from the beginning – the Church had to fight them from the very beginning.

At the last Supper Jesus prayed that his disciples would remain united as he and the Father are (John 17:11)

“And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one.”

It is essential that we be united in Faith. We are to be One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. That is why Jesus said those words that we are to be one.

Today everywhere we have the evidence of a divided Christianity. This is because people have been dissatisfied with what the original Church taught and have started breakaway movements. Yet Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church, guiding into all truth (John 16:13)

“When the Spirit of Truth comes he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears and he will declare to you the things that are to come.”

Despite heresies, bad popes, bad clergy, the Holy Spirit has guided the Church and steered us on the right path and away from error.

Those who left and started their own churches and denominations have separated themselves from the Church and its authority

Jesus gave Peter “the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Matt:16-18-19)

• “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven.”*

Jesus recognized the need for authority and that is why he gave the keys to Peter.

It is clear as crystal that the Church is to be One under Peter and the Apostles and those who isolate themselves are suspect. (2 Peter 2:1) warns of false teachers spreading bad doctrine. Christ himself warns about false prophets leading people astray even while performing miracles

“But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions, they will even deny the Master who bought them – bringing swift destruction on themselves."

We in the Catholic Church believe that all Christians are part of the Body of Christ (His Church) but they are separated brethren because they rejected some of the teachings of the Church. This does not mean that they will not be saved. They inherited the separated church which began with Luther and his ilk. God is merciful and will never reject them.

Despite recognizing all Christians as being part of the Body of Christ, and therefore have a claim to salvation, we cannot say that they are in fully communion with the Body of Christ because they have separated themselves from “FULL COMMUNION”.

I am sure that those more knowledgeable than myself will add to my post and correct me if I am wrong.

Peace
Cinette

 

[Cinette]

There is one thing the pope has that renders him fallible:F-L-E-S-H!!!

You should try to avoid being facetious - it is silly and unbecoming.

Make an intelligent contribution. You remind of me kids at school who stick out their tongues at one another

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

Christ commanded his disciples in Matt 28:19-20 to teach all he had given them:
*
19”Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."*

This is Jesus’ promise which he will keep always.

Jesus empowered the Apostles and gave them authority in Lk 10:16 Jesus when he said
*
“Whoever listens to you, listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me.” *

Here we were told that those listening to the authority of the Church are listening to Christ himself. As the Word spread throughout the world there was a need for a central authority. Remember that the heretics were there from the beginning – the Church had to fight them from the very beginning.

At the last Supper Jesus prayed that his disciples would remain united as he and the Father are (John 17:11)

“And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one.”

It is essential that we be united in Faith. We are to be One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. That is why Jesus said those words that we are to be one.

Today everywhere we have the evidence of a divided Christianity. This is because people have been dissatisfied with what the original Church taught and have started breakaway movements. Yet Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church, guiding into all truth (John 16:13)

“When the Spirit of Truth comes he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears and he will declare to you the things that are to come.”

Despite heresies, bad popes, bad clergy, the Holy Spirit has guided the Church and steered us on the right path and away from error.

Those who left and started their own churches and denominations have separated themselves from the Church and its authority

Jesus gave Peter “the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Matt:16-18-19)

• “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven.”*

Jesus recognized the need for authority and that is why he gave the keys to Peter.

It is clear as crystal that the Church is to be One under Peter and the Apostles and those who isolate themselves are suspect. (2 Peter 2:1) warns of false teachers spreading bad doctrine. Christ himself warns about false prophets leading people astray even while performing miracles

“But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions, they will even deny the Master who bought them – bringing swift destruction on themselves."

We in the Catholic Church believe that all Christians are part of the Body of Christ (His Church) but they are separated brethren because they rejected some of the teachings of the Church. This does not mean that they will not be saved. They inherited the separated church which began with Luther and his ilk. God is merciful and will never reject them.

Despite recognizing all Christians as being part of the Body of Christ, and therefore have a claim to salvation, we cannot say that they are in fully communion with the Body of Christ because they have separated themselves from “FULL COMMUNION”.

I am sure that those more knowledgeable than myself will add to my post and correct me if I am wrong.

Peace
Cinette

Hi Cinette,

I am grateful that you recognise that all Christians are part of the Body of Christ. You write:

“We in the Catholic Church believe that all Christians are part of the Body of Christ (His Church) but they are separated brethren because they rejected some of the teachings of the Church. This does not mean that they will not be saved. They inherited the separated church which began with Luther and his ilk. God is merciful and will never reject them.”

Although, I do NOT agree with your overall position I am, at least, encouraged that you recognise that salvation is NOT tied exclusively to the Roman Catholic Church.

Cheers, In Christ Craig

 

[Cinette]

Ralphinal: I think only catholics see the pope as the leader of Christianity; non-Christians could probably care less! All believers, who have accepted Christ as their personal Saviour, and been baptized(full immersion, as was Jesus) in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit(Matthew 28:20) are part of the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ! And you would have to ask Paul about the all have sinned declaration, as he wrote the letter to the Romans!

Like it or not my dear fellow - there is no right doctrine that Protestants and Pentecostals teach that has not come to them through the Catholic Church.

If you can prove otherwise please do so. It would make an interesting debate.

Remember that in John 21:25 we read not everything is in Scripture. In 1 Tim:3:15 we read that the Church is the pillar of Faith, not the Bible. In 1 Cor 11:2 we are urged to hold on to all the Traditions we have been taught.

:sad_yes:

 

[1beleevr]

I believe I meant that you don’t have to be a catholic to be saved!

 

[Cinette]

I believe I meant that you don’t have to be a catholic to be saved!

It would be nice if I never had to repeat myself on this subject, that Protestants should know that this is the Catholic stand.

I have had to argue with Protestants who say to me “I know that so and so is not saved” “Are you saved?”

We have not yet reached our destination. Only God will be the judge.

I think that a good suggestion would be for all Christians to look at the 10 Commandments every day and take them in. In fact, they need only look at the first “Love the Lord your God with your whole heart and your neighbour as yourself” (paraphrasing here). If one concentrated on that commandment alone all the others would automatically fall in place. We must love God and one another. That should be our daily Mission Statement.

Because Love changes everything.

God bless you all
Cinette

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

I believe I meant that you don’t have to be a catholic to be saved!

I would heartily concur with that affirmation.

In Christ, Craig

 

[1beleevr]

My dearest granny, I mean cinette; fallibility is a human trait, and the last time I looked, the pope was still a human being! Like it or not, he is a mere mortal man,susceptible to sin, like the rest of us! And speaking of facetiousness, how can you guys(catholics) call him Holy Father? That title is reserved for our God!

 

[1beleevr]

Thanks, Craig; it’s nice to see another person who believes that salvation is available to all, regardless of affiliation:thumbsup:

 

[LittleSage]

By the way, this is one of the biggest things that made me question Christianity when I was a kid, so big brownie points if you can give me a decent answer!

Nobody?

 

[Cinette]

My dearest granny, I mean cinette; fallibility is a human trait, and the last time I looked, the pope was still a human being! Like it or not, he is a mere mortal man,susceptible to sin, like the rest of us! And speaking of facetiousness, how can you guys(catholics) call him Holy Father? That title is reserved for our God!

“Be holy because I, the Lord your God, am holy” (Lev 19.2)

Holiness is for all sweetheart! We are also told to strive for perfection. That is a task which God has given us.

Is the Pope holy? I believe he is - he is your Holy Father also. Look at the fruits! Look at his dedication! Look at his life!

 

[1beleevr]

Cinette: I agree with your take on the Ten Commandments, and wholeheartedly agree on the two most important ones:thumbsup:But we must also remember that, because God knew that we couldn’t, and today can’t keep all ten, He sent Jesus! Some people that we encounter, are almost impossible to love, but through the love and peace of Christ, we can learn to love them! I see a lot of that in the posts in this thread. Some combatants are tossing bombs back and forth, and it’s almost like I can see God up there shaking His head! We are all special to Him, regardless of spiritual affiliation, color, race, creed, etc.,so why can’t we accept each other, the way He accepts us?