What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic

[Cinette]

Objective truth does not evolve. Murder is still murder. Adultery is still Adultery. Idolatry is still idolatry. The trappings of modernity does not nullify objective Truth.

I forgot to check your denomination but am assuming you are Christian.

I would suggest that before you knock down the teaching on condoms you read the reasons for the Church’s banning of them. A lot of people disagree with Humanae Vitae and yet I would conjecture that these objectors do not even thoroughly understand the Church’s position.

The Churh does not merely say this is not permissible, She also says why.

I suggest you read Rome Sweet Home or else click on this link and listen to her discuss contraception. http://www.bringyou.to/JHKimberlyHahn.mp3

You say that “I have a viewpoint that a person should be able to decide their own body’s fate not a church.”

This is supreme arrogance. Our bodies are not our own. God created our bodies so they belong to God. The life in the woman’s womb is not hers, she is merely it’s custodian. She has no right over it because she is not it’s Author. If you are an atheist then it is understable that you will hold that view. But as I have said since I forgot to check your religious affiliation this comment is made under the assumption that you are Christian.
Those who come up with this argument sin the sin of Adam and Eve all over again. The sin of pride. The failure to acknowledge their creaturedness We are not the arbiters of morality. That is God’s domain ALONE.

The link below is about priestesses but Peter Kreeft ties this in with abortion so this is might be enlighten you on why abortion is a big No No in the Catholic Church.

http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/09_priestesses.htm

There is no such thing as a middle ground. There is no compromising Truth.

All JPII is saying is that we are created by God. Evolutionary theory does not support that because die hard Darwinian evolutionist has chance for a god.

Try to get Scott Hahn’s and Benhamin Wiker’s “Answering the New Atheistm”

If you believe in Christ then yes, you have to believe in the doctrines of the Catholic church because she is His Church.

The link I gave on Peter Kreeft’s talk regarding Women’s priests touches on this as well.

Do download it and listen.

As always Benedictus your post is clear and well presented.

I don’t remember if I mentioned this on this thread but I shall mentioned it again. In regard to condoms it is well known that there is a percentage of failure (I can’t remember but I think it is more than 10%). Now if you were told that there was a measure of even 3% failure if you went bungee jumping would you risk it? I don’t believe you would. However people think that condoms are OK even with a 5% failure rate - yet AIDS is a slow and painful death - if your bungee jumping ended in death it would be quick and swift.

So???

 

[Christian7801]

Hi, Christian7801,

The Bible was established as it is today (the Catholic Bible) about 300 years after Christ was born. Prior to this there was the only the OT - and certain Jewish groups did not agree on what should and should not be included. It really is a lengthy story - and here is a link to spare me from a lengthy explanation… cmri.org/00prog11.html

It would simply be incomplete to identify the 16th Century ‘Reformaiton’ as a religious event and not take into account the political (governmental, economic and military) aspects of this experience. The heart of the religious matter in my opinion lies with the Protestant denial of Purgatory and the removing of books that had any reference to this in the OT. The heart of the political matter is that, at least in theory, this entire event was put on to counter the sale of indulgences (and this relates to Purgatory) and there was this incredible building and remodeling and art program going on in Rome at the time (the Vatican and St. Peter’s) that was in need of cash. Well, a lot of money from Germany, Francc, England, etc was leaving their country and enriching the Italians. Local princes were coming up short on the money they expected - and when Luther decided the time was right to post his 95 Thesis - he did not do this in a vacuum. This disgruntled Augustianian monk would not have gotten very far if he had not been supported and defended by the local political powers. A note-worthy event is that while Luther transcribed the Bible from Latin to German, he made changes and wanted to purge the NT of items that offended (the Epistle of St. James comes immediately to mind) that put up obsticles to the new gospel he wanted to proclaim (solo fidie). But, this is just my opinion and does not represent anything more then that.

Now, on to your main issue:

In all honesty, I do not understand your first sentence … and, while I think I can put it together to bring about a question - I run the risk of doing it incorrectly. In my previous attempt to answer your question I gave you three items to consider:

1- The guys that showed up expected a free meal - and they were hungry.
2- Christ tells them that they are only here because they want to eat again for free - and they are insulted
3- Christ provides the foundation for the Eucharist (which He then puts into practice at the Last Supper )

Now, if this did not answer your question, you are going to have to restate it - and, in such a way that I understand that you understood what I originally said… or, else we get this endless loop of repititions.

To simply wave one’s hand at verse 63 in an effort to dismiss everthing that preceeded it (e.g., My Flesh is REAL FOOD, My Blood is REAL DRINK…) only flies with those who simply do not believe that Christ was serious. [Or, there may have been those who realized that you need a Priest to act in the Person of Christ to validly consecrate common, unleavened bread into the Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ - and if you are breaking away from Rome, sooner or later you will have no Priests. So, now where are you? Best break completely by denying 1500+ years of history and say, 'We don’t need it!"]

The Jews thought He was serious - they walked out on Him. You notice, they did not say that the “Sower and the Seed” or “I Am The Vine You Are The Branches” were ‘hard sayings’. You just have to take a moment, and think this through: why did they stick around for that - yet walk out when He said, ‘I Am The Bread Of Life’? They actually understood Him - and rejected Him because they understood Him AND COULD NOT ACCEPT what it was He was saying. If it was just a simple misunderstanding…(just pretend that the Author of Life could verbally make a mis-statement ) and now you have all of these folks were walking out because of the verbal ‘blunder’!! Don’t you think Christ would have said something like, “Hold on, you guys obviously have misunderstood me - this is just a spiritul thing! You know that cannibalism is forbidden. I Am not talking about the flesh…no matter how many times I mentioned it!” Not only did he not try to talk them back into staying - He was in their face with yet another repitition of what He meant. Just how much clearer could Christ be? Since these guys are thinking cannibalism (flesh) and not focused on Christ and the physical/spiritual reality He will fully develop at the Last Supper - they missed the point. And, yes, their 'flesh’y thinking profited them nothing.

So, you have a chance right now - be like the Jews and deny that Christ was actually giving us His Flesh for the life of the world - or - be like Peter and believe and know that you don’t know exactly what Christ is talking about - but, He has the words of evelasting life. That quote form Lewis really applies - “Fortunately Christ said, ‘Take and eat’ and not, ‘Take and understand.’”

God bless

Hello,

You have the political aspect correct IMO, but on the wrong side. These additional books are with historic and geographical error and therefore are not inspired nor infallible and therefore are not from God…would you agree that something with error is not from God? 2 Macc states that it is not inspired; so to make something part of the word of God that clearly isn’t; doesn’t make any sense to me…does it to you? Is that Vincent Lewis?

Verse 63 is not an effort to dismiss; it is an effort to pull all the preceding thought into the proper context unless someone else falls away with the literal crowd in unbelief. I think Jesus said this to make sure His disciples did not fall into the same error as the crowd that left…it is one of the most straightforward and clear passages IMO.

 

[jsanturce]

Being born and raised catholic I give thanks for metally learning about the Lord. But the catholic church falls so short in so many ways. I am now a born again christian.

1. I believe Jesus is the only way to heaven period not by works but by trust in him. You dont have to be a catholic and do communion, confirmation etc to be accepted by God. Thats one teaching I totally disagree with.
2. I 100% do not believe the pope is infallible and his word is equal witht the bible. The bible is the only source of truth not the pope. He is a sinful man like all of us.
3. Bowing down to statues and images and the pope is not what the bible teaches Jesus told us we must worship God in spirit and truth.
4. The catholic church is so dead when it comes to being on fire for God and they dont encourage the people to read Gods word the bible. I dont know of any catholics who live different than the world does. Im just being honest. And I never seen a catholic witness his faith in Jesus to anyone. The church is too passive and caught in the curse of tradition which is what the Lord Jesus got so mad at the pharasies about.

These are just a few of the things that need to change I could never go back to being a catholic because of these teachings. I love my catholic brothers and sisters its just that they just dont understand the bible and what the Lord taught. I hope the have a revival in the church cause all of my family is catholic and they are being led astray. God Bless

 

[gcnuss]

The Bible was established as it is today (the Catholic Bible) about 300 years after Christ was born. Prior to this there was the only the OT - and certain Jewish groups did not agree on what should and should not be included. It really is a lengthy story - and here is a link to spare me from a lengthy explanation… cmri.org/00prog11.html

Tom,

Don’t tell me you’re joining up with the sedevacantists!!!

 

[guanophore]

Being born and raised catholic I give thanks for metally learning about the Lord. But the catholic church falls so short in so many ways. I am now a born again christian.

If you did not understand that you were already a “born again Christian” then you did not understand your Catholic faith. Has is occurred to you that it might be your understanding that falls short in so many ways?

1. I believe Jesus is the only way to heaven period not by works but by trust in him. You dont have to be a catholic and do communion, confirmation etc to be accepted by God. Thats one teaching I totally disagree with.

I disagree too, and since this is not what the Catholic Church teaches, I guess I don’t see the problem.

1. I 100% do not believe the pope is infallible and his word is equal witht the bible. The bible is the only source of truth not the pope. He is a sinful man like all of us.

It is interesting that you say this. It makes it clear that you do not understand what the charism of infalllibility is about, or how it works. It is alco clear that you do not know the history and origin of your Bible.

1. Bowing down to statues and images and the pope is not what the bible teaches Jesus told us we must worship God in spirit and truth.

Indeed this is true. The Catholic Church teaches that this activity is idolatry, and is a grave sin.

1. The catholic church is so dead when it comes to being on fire for God and they dont encourage the people to read Gods word the bible.

I used to believe this was true also, until I understood that it was I who was dead, and was not reading my blble. It took me years to appreciate how arrogant I had been, judging others for my own shortcomings.

I dont know of any catholics who live different than the world does. Im just being honest. And I never seen a catholic witness his faith in Jesus to anyone. The church is too passive and caught in the curse of tradition which is what the Lord Jesus got so mad at the pharasies about.

It is true that there are a great number of Catholics who are a poor witness to the faith they claim to espouse. Your other judgment, about the church being “too passive” is curious. I am not sure what that is about.

Your statement makes it clear that you do not understand the difference between man made traditions (customs) and Sacred Tradition.

These are just a few of the things that need to change I could never go back to being a catholic because of these teachings.

It is clear that you were never Catholic in your faith and practice. Your experience is not uncommon. I went through it myself.

I love my catholic brothers and sisters its just that they just dont understand the bible and what the Lord taught. I hope the have a revival in the church cause all of my family is catholic and they are being led astray. God Bless

What is “astray”? Do they espouse all the same errors about the Catholic faith you have demonstrated here?

 

[SteveGC]

Being born and raised catholic I give thanks for metally learning about the Lord. But the catholic church falls so short in so many ways. I am now a born again christian.

1. I believe Jesus is the only way to heaven period not by works but by trust in him. You dont have to be a catholic and do communion, confirmation etc to be accepted by God. Thats one teaching I totally disagree with.
2. I 100% do not believe the pope is infallible and his word is equal witht the bible. The bible is the only source of truth not the pope. He is a sinful man like all of us.
3. Bowing down to statues and images and the pope is not what the bible teaches Jesus told us we must worship God in spirit and truth.
4. The catholic church is so dead when it comes to being on fire for God and they dont encourage the people to read Gods word the bible. I dont know of any catholics who live different than the world does. Im just being honest. And I never seen a catholic witness his faith in Jesus to anyone. The church is too passive and caught in the curse of tradition which is what the Lord Jesus got so mad at the pharasies about.

These are just a few of the things that need to change I could never go back to being a catholic because of these teachings. I love my catholic brothers and sisters its just that they just dont understand the bible and what the Lord taught. I hope the have a revival in the church cause all of my family is catholic and they are being led astray. God Bless

Sorry you feel this way, js

It is clear you have a misinformed concept of The Church, which is a sad reality that all devout Catholics recognize as all too common. Your objections are very common to someone poorly catechized and/or influenced by anti-Catholic rhetoric.

You probably never knew…
…that The Church is absolutely Christocentric.
…that salvation for us isn’t a matter of works alone.
…that The Church doesn’t exclude anyone from the acceptance of God, whether a member of the Church or not.
…that the pope is not impeccable, is in fact a sinner like us all, and only is given the charism of infallibility when declaring matters of faith and morals, a gift which is used quite rarely. And that this gift is not a self-declared gift…it is based on the gift of the Holy Spirit breathed unto the Apostles, and handed down to successors they ordained (laid hands on). Infallibility is a gift which recognizes the power of Christ.
…that we don’t worship statues and idols, but rather show reverence to the truths they represent
…that we don’t bow down to the pope as a replacement for Christ, but rather as a sign of reverence to Christ’s appointed shepherd on earth, entrusted by Him to guide us all to Himself
…that ‘being on fire for God’ is not a quality you can discern by judging the cover of a Catholic person, and that devout Catholics are some of the most “on fire” Christians in the world, manifested in their profession of faith, witness to others, willingness to share testimony, and unceasing charitable contributions to fellow man.
…that apostolic tradition is far from a curse, it is the intended vehicle used to bring all the faithful to Christ. The Bible came from this very tradition which you now denounce. I’m sure you’ll disagree…but there it is.

Welcome (back) to the CAF forums. Stick around awhile, explore and learn some things you NEVER really knew before. We’ve seen it happen ALL the time.

God Bless

 

[jsanturce]

OK you bombarded me so let me answer Guanophore first.

1. How are you a born again christian? by being catholic? I was not born again when I attended catholic church I was practicing sin all the time thinking I was ok with God and thats how all catholics I know live. They assume cause there catholic there saved thats not true. There need to be repentence (turning away from sin) and heart inspired trust in the Lord then he will come to live on the inside of you and he changes you. We cannot change our sinful nature God helps us through the holy spirit. So I was not born again.
2. We agree we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
3. I understand the bible pretty well I read my word everyday and I love reading the word but we all can learn new things everyday including the Pope. The holy spirit is the teacher not man. I also know how the bible was assembled and the history.
4. You say the church does not teach idolatry but how come we always lite candles to porcelein statues and kiss the cross etc etc. Isnt that a form of idolatry when Christ said to worship the Lord in spirit and truth. There are no holy buildings or relics anymore (the temple, the ark etc). We are the temple of God now.

I thank you for responding to me and its always good to have peaceful dialogue. Dont take me wrong I know there are catholics who love the Lord and are born again but most of the ones I see and know just dont understand the faith and I blame the catholic church for that they just dont stress the repentence and reading of the word enough. Most catholics are bible illiterate and thats the problem.

 

[jsanturce]

OK Steve GC

You probably never knew…
(…that The Church is absolutely Christocentric. )

OK

(…that salvation for us isn’t a matter of works alone. )

works alone are the 2 words there. Its not by works at all unless men can boast. Its by faith alone through Christ alone. Period NO works. Read Romans and Galatians.

(…that The Church doesn’t exclude anyone from the acceptance of God, whether a member of the Church or not. )

Thats another problem catholics believe u can enter heaven just by being a good person I saw one of the famous priest on Larry King say as long as youa re a good person u go to heaven. What happen to when Jesus said “I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE NO MAN ENTERS THE KINDOM OF GOD EXCEPT THROUGH ME”. Or do we ignore that.

(…that the pope is not impeccable, is in fact a sinner like us all, and only is given the charism of infallibility when declaring matters of faith and morals, a gift which is used quite rarely. And that this gift is not a self-declared gift…it is based on the gift of the Holy Spirit breathed unto the Apostles, and handed down to successors they ordained (laid hands on). Infallibility is a gift which recognizes the power of Christ. )

But he is not an apostle he is a regular sinner like me and u.

(…that we don’t worship statues and idols, but rather show reverence to the truths they represent)

OK

(…that we don’t bow down to the pope as a replacement for Christ, but rather as a sign of reverence to Christ’s appointed shepherd on earth, entrusted by Him to guide us all to Himself)

You can respect him but he is just a man if you are a born again believer your prayer is just as powerful as his. In revelations the angel tells John “get up dont bow down to me only bow down to God”. Your telling me he is to be reverenced more than angels.

(…that ‘being on fire for God’ is not a quality you can discern by judging the cover of a Catholic person, and that devout Catholics are some of the most “on fire” Christians in the world, manifested in their profession of faith, witness to others, willingness to share testimony, and unceasing charitable contributions to fellow man.)

I dont see any sign of this I hope its true.

(…that apostolic tradition is far from a curse, it is the intended vehicle used to bring all the faithful to Christ. The Bible came from this very tradition which you now denounce. I’m sure you’ll disagree…but there it is.)

The bible is the final authority no church and no man.

Love you brother I knwo you will probably write me back so lets keep it open. lol

Its a great thing to discuss our beliefs. God Bless

 

[SteveGC]

I know guan will respond to you soon. I just wanted to say, however…

I think you are allowing lukewarm “Catholics” you’ve been exposed to, to influence your opinion about what The Catholic Church is. Disobedient Catholics are no measuring stick to the authenticity and holiness of The Church. I’ll admit, though, that the label “Catholic” is far too widespread in it’s essential meaning. Many secular, publicly sinful people, will still use the title “Catholic” for themselves because they were simply “born” into that faith, but want nothing to do with it. It’s a shame they have no proper conscience to cease using that term to describe themselves. As a result, with thousands upon thousands who use the label, but don’t live the Christian life it encompasses, we have a multitude of fallen away Catholics out there representing the authentic Christian faith, and witnesses to them judge The Church by their behavior.

You have to see with better eyes than that. We all do. I hope you can really meet some devout Catholics soon. This forum is a good place to start. Open your mind a little, and try to shelve what you’ve been exposed to thus far in your life regarding “Catholics”. Try to REALLY discover what the Church teaches. This is the best way to uncover truth.

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

OK you bombarded me so let me answer Guanophore first.

1. How are you a born again christian? by being catholic? I was not born again when I attended catholic church I was practicing sin all the time thinking I was ok with God and thats how all catholics I know live. They assume cause there catholic there saved thats not true. There need to be repentence (turning away from sin) and heart inspired trust in the Lord then he will come to live on the inside of you and he changes you. We cannot change our sinful nature God helps us through the holy spirit. So I was not born again.

We don’t mean to “bombard”. We just get excited sometimes.

The Apostles taught that we are born again of water and Spirit when we are baptized. So, yes, all validly baptized persons are considered born again.

I see your point about failing to live a life worthy of repentance, though. I was the same way growing up, and I did not understand the way the power of the HS works in the soul of a born again person. I, like you, was very poorly catechized in my faith.

1. We agree we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

This is what you have been taught through the Reformed teaching with which you have been contaminated. However, Jesus Christ is never “alone”. He Chose to form a Body, the Church, and He is not separated from His Holy Bride.

1. I understand the bible pretty well I read my word everyday and I love reading the word but we all can learn new things everyday including the Pope. The holy spirit is the teacher not man. I also know how the bible was assembled and the history.

I am sure the Pope learns new things every day. He is a very scholarly man, and devoted to showing himself approved. Jesus appoints teachers to do the work of the Spirit in the Body.

If you understood about the Bible, you would know that it is a Catholic Book. Nothing in it contradicts Catholic teaching. If you understood it’s history, you would also know that it was written by men who were acting in the gift of infallibility that Jesus gave to the Church.

1. You say the church does not teach idolatry but how come we always lite candles to porcelein statues and kiss the cross etc etc. Isnt that a form of idolatry when Christ said to worship the Lord in spirit and truth.

Did you do these things,and if so, why?

There are no holy buildings or relics anymore (the temple, the ark etc). We are the temple of God now.

If you wish to refrain from dedicating any personal objects to the service of God, you may certainly do so. Why would you find fault with others for consecrating material things to God?

The early church did this with all their material things…

I thank you for responding to me and its always good to have peaceful dialogue.

You are the reason CAF is here!

Dont take me wrong I know there are catholics who love the Lord and are born again but most of the ones I see and know just dont understand the faith and I blame the catholic church for that they just dont stress the repentence and reading of the word enough. Most catholics are bible illiterate and thats the problem.

It is wrong to lay the blame at the feet of Christ. It belongs to the fallen people who are attached to the Church, some of whom are ignorant, some downright rebellious, refusing what the Church teaches.

I agree that tit is demoralizing to see catholics living in the flesh,n ot reading their scriptures, and ignorant of the faith. Perhaps you are called to help them?

 

[SteveGC]

works alone are the 2 words there. Its not by works at all unless men can boast. Its by faith alone through Christ alone. Period NO works. Read Romans and Galatians.

Let’s back up a bit. Salvation is made possible for us through Grace alone, enabled by the atoning death of Christ for our sake. The door has been opened. But we must ENTER the door. Faith is the motivator for us to move toward the door. Faith itself is a gift of grace. Faith is also a verb, not a noun. It is a gift which requires an act of the will, which is also what a “work” is in Catholic teaching. But more than that, faith requires a commitment to follow Christ, wherever He leads. This is obedience to His Word, His teaching. We cannot do good works without faith, for we cannot see the will of God for us (or the good works God has prepared for us beforehand) without this grace of faith. Works do not make Christ’s sacrifice insufficient, for it was fully sufficient for everyone. But our response remains. Faith and works are the response, both a gift of grace. This is why James says faith without works is dead.

Thats another problem catholics believe u can enter heaven just by being a good person I saw one of the famous priest on Larry King say as long as youa re a good person u go to heaven. What happen to when Jesus said “I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE NO MAN ENTERS THE KINDOM OF GOD EXCEPT THROUGH ME”. Or do we ignore that.

I don’t know this priest you mention. If this is what he said, he either is being taken out of context (what precisely did he say, and what was the question asked of him)…or perhaps he is not in-line with The Church, is in fact being heretical, and therefore is not a valid representative of the faith. I’m surprised to hear this argument you offer here. Catholics are usually the ones arguing that non-Catholics possess a faulty ‘easy believism’ because of their faith-alone mantra. I’m glad you’re not of that crowd. Devout Catholics are the most in-tune Christians when it comes to repentance, confession and conversion. It is essential to our on-going sanctification and relationship with God.

But he is not an apostle he is a regular sinner like me and u.

He’s not one of the twelve, no. He is an ordained successor. The Bible reveals a few of these ordinations, wherein a younger faithful, devoted Christian is being given the same gift as the apostles where given at Pentecost. This ‘laying on of hands’ didn’t cease just because the Bible doesn’t continue the story past the first few decades after Christ’s death and resurrection.

You can respect him but he is just a man if you are a born again believer your prayer is just as powerful as his. In revelations the angel tells John “get up dont bow down to me only bow down to God”. Your telling me he is to be reverenced more than angels.

When people bow before the pope, they are showing their reverence for Christ, not the man in front of them, and his human nature. He truly has been gifted by the Holy Spirit as a Christ-appointed shepherd of the faithful. We recognize this fact, and see the beauty of this gift, and show reverence to it.

I dont see any sign of this (on fire for Christ) I hope its true.

It is. read my previous post, which tells you why I think you haven’t yet seen it.

The bible is the final authority no church and no man.

You say you know the story of the Bible’s existence. Can you share that with me? More importantly, can you show me where the Bible claims either it’s final authority, or it’s inerrancy / infallibility?

Its a great thing to discuss our beliefs. God Bless

Agreed. God Bless

 

[RichardnCO]

As a Protestant who was given serious consideration to converting to Catholicism, I would say that the overwhelming devotion to Mary is something which was more foreign to me.

I grew up believing that Mary was selected to be the mother of Jesus, but she was human and as such, like all humans, inherited sin just like anyone else.

Once Jesus died on the cross, I don’t remember too much more being said about Mary after that.

I think the one problem I have with Catholics and Mary is that they elevate her to a point where she is almost equal to Jesus. I believe Mary was a special person but not to the level that Catholics believe.

I know Catholics don’t worship Mary, but for me, elevating any human to the level of Christ is one thing that I can’t accept.

In any case, for other reasons, I have decided to remain Protestant, but will always cherish the time I spent with my Catholic friends during my catachesis classes.

 

[RichardnCO]

Since none of my fellow non-Catholics has ventured into this minefield, I’ll throw caution to the winds and venture an answer or two.

First and foremost, the basics of Christian faith as set forth in the three ecumenical creeds are not a problem. As a Lutheran, I believe them with all my heart.

Second, with regard to the Marian dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, I don’t regard them as articles of faith. Despite that, I don’t find them objectionable as pious opinions. I just don’t understand them to be essential to my faith as a Christian. Given that, I would probably be seen as a “cafeteria Catholic” were I to convert.

Third, and last for now, as a Lutheran pastor I do not believe, and cannot accept, the Catholic position that the Eucharist, as celebrated in the Lutheran Church, is invalid. By the same token, I do not believe that my ordination is equally invalid because it does not fall within the Catholic Church’s definition of validity. I don’t expect the Catholic Church to change its teachings on these subjects, but they remain an obstacle to my possible conversion.

Having said that, there is much about the Catholic Church that I admire – even a few things that I envy. And, I certainly wouldn’t hang around this forum if I didn’t find much to challenge and to support my faith.

I agree about the point of the Eucharist. Catholics accept other Christian baptism so I don’t understand why they won’t let baptized non Catholic Christians participate in Holy Communion. I also agree, there is a lot of traditions I like in the Catholic church that are not in Protestant churches (at least the one I belonged to).

 

[jsanturce]

OK Guanophore

(The Apostles taught that we are born again of water and Spirit when we are baptized. So, yes, all validly baptized persons are considered born again.)

We totally disagree on this theres been serial killers and rapists who have been baptized. Your telling me they were born again. Come on.

(This is what you have been taught through the Reformed teaching with which you have been contaminated. However, Jesus Christ is never “alone”. He Chose to form a Body, the Church, and He is not separated from His Holy Bride.)

Its not contamination its truth just read the word its crystal clear.

(I am sure the Pope learns new things every day. He is a very scholarly man, and devoted to showing himself approved. Jesus appoints teachers to do the work of the Spirit in the Body. )

No problem with that.

(If you understood about the Bible, you would know that it is a Catholic Book. Nothing in it contradicts Catholic teaching. If you understood it’s history, you would also know that it was written by men who were acting in the gift of infallibility that Jesus gave to the Church. )

Its not a catholic book its Gods book written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit.

(If you wish to refrain from dedicating any personal objects to the service of God, you may certainly do so. Why would you find fault with others for consecrating material things to God?)

Your right about that Paul said not to do this Im sorry.

Just know its through repentence and faith in Jesus not anything else. Love ya bro.

 

[cazayoux]

(If you understood about the Bible, you would know that it is a Catholic Book. Nothing in it contradicts Catholic teaching. If you understood it’s history, you would also know that it was written by men who were acting in the gift of infallibility that Jesus gave to the Church. )

Its not a catholic book its Gods book written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Same thing … the Catholic Church is God’s church … the ONE he founded, said the gates of hell would not prevail against, and that He would be with it always. This is the same church that wrote the bible in the first century (up to the 4th pope’s time) and canonized it in the 4th century (while on our 37th pope).

It is a catholic book, God’s book written by catholic men, in God’s catholic church, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

michel

 

[jsanturce]

Let’s back up a bit. Salvation is made possible for us through Grace alone, enabled by the atoning death of Christ for our sake. The door has been opened. But we must ENTER the door. Faith is the motivator for us to move toward the door. Faith itself is a gift of grace. Faith is also a verb, not a noun. It is a gift which requires an act of the will, which is also what a “work” is in Catholic teaching. But more than that, faith requires a commitment to follow Christ, wherever He leads. This is obedience to His Word, His teaching. We cannot do good works without faith, for we cannot see the will of God for us (or the good works God has prepared for us beforehand) without this grace of faith. Works do not make Christ’s sacrifice insufficient, for it was fully sufficient for everyone. But our response remains. Faith and works are the response, both a gift of grace. This is why James says faith without works is dead.

I agree with u up to a point. How are we going to do good works we are wicked its only by the Holy Spirit within us can we do good works. Even good works can be done for selfish reasons. Doing confirmation does not bring someone closer to God. What brings us closer is humility, love for all people only through Gods spirit can we do this.

I don’t know this priest you mention. If this is what he said, he either is being taken out of context (what precisely did he say, and what was the question asked of him)…or perhaps he is not in-line with The Church, is in fact being heretical, and therefore is not a valid representative of the faith. I’m surprised to hear this argument you offer here. Catholics are usually the ones arguing that non-Catholics possess a faulty ‘easy believism’ because of their faith-alone mantra. I’m glad you’re not of that crowd. Devout Catholics are the most in-tune Christians when it comes to repentance, confession and conversion. It is essential to our on-going sanctification and relationship with God.

I wouldnt go as far to say catholics are the most in tuned christians in my opinion thye have let tradition overide the bible. And you know thats a no no.

He’s not one of the twelve, no. He is an ordained successor. The Bible reveals a few of these ordinations, wherein a younger faithful, devoted Christian is being given the same gift as the apostles where given at Pentecost. This ‘laying on of hands’ didn’t cease just because the Bible doesn’t continue the story past the first few decades after Christ’s death and resurrection.

I agree with laying on of hands but there is no leader of the church but Jesus Christ.

When people bow before the pope, they are showing their reverence for Christ, not the man in front of them, and his human nature. He truly has been gifted by the Holy Spirit as a Christ-appointed shepherd of the faithful. We recognize this fact, and see the beauty of this gift, and show reverence to it.

You know as much as I do catholics look up to the pope like he is a God. Come on. Theres no nedd at all to bow to him. I only bow to Jesus.

You say you know the story of the Bible’s existence. Can you share that with me? More importantly, can you show me where the Bible claims either it’s final authority, or it’s inerrancy / infallibility?

The bible was put together in the council of nicea. Back then the church was filled witht the Holy Spirit and He directed the compilation. The new testament was written by apostles who were there with Christ and people who apostles taught about Christ. They had close intimacy with the Lord and people close to the Lord.

The Bible is the Word of God

Jesus referred to the Old Testament as the “Word of God” which “cannot be broken” (John 10:35, NKJV). He said, “Until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Matt. 5:18, NIV). Paul added, “All Scripture is God-breathed” (2 Tim. 3:16, NIV). It came “from of the mouth of God” (see Matt. 4:4, NIV). Although human authors recorded the messages, “prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Pet. 1:2, NIV).

Jesus said to the religious leaders of His day, "You nullify the word of God by your tradition (Mark 7:13, NIV). Jesus turned their attention to the written Word of God by affirming over and over again, “It is written . . . It is written . . . It is written . . .” (see Matt. 4:4, 7, 10). This phrase occurs over ninety times in the New Testament. It is a strong indication of the divine authority of the written Word of God. Stressing the unfailing nature of God’s truth, the apostle Paul referred to the Scriptures as “the word of God” (Rom. 9:6, NASB).

The Logical Conclusion: The Bible Cannot Err

Yes, God has spoken, and He has not stuttered. The God of truth has given us the Word of Truth, and it does not contain any untruth in it. The Bible is the unerring Word of God.

LOVE YA BROTHER AND GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.

Agreed. God Bless

 

[jsanturce]

I just want to let you guys know Im not trying to hurt your faith or discourage you Im very happy you are passionate about the Lord. We are on the same team and we need to reach more people with the gospel in these difficult times. We disagree theologically but that does not mean we cant love each other and get out there and reach the world for Jesus Christ. We want to introduce people to Jesus not any denomination or church. Right? God Bless you all.

 

[bobzills]

1. I believe Jesus is the only way to heaven period not by works but by trust in him.

This contradicts what Our Lord said:
Matthew 25:
34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

 

[jsanturce]

This contradicts what Our Lord said:
Matthew 25:
34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Of course we will do works by Gods grace and the power of the Holy Spirit. But remember the thief on the cross he didnt do any works but he just put his trust and faith in the Lord and the Lord said “TODAY YOU WILL BE IN PARADISE WITH ME”. No works he was a thief all his life it was his faith that saved him through Gods grace. Throughout the Gospels there are plenty of cases of instant salvation in peoples lives no works no communion , confirmation, pennance etc. Just faith and trust in the Lord. He is awesome and so gracious but we must first repent and trust. Thats it. Then the holy spirit comes to live on the inside of you then He does the rest through you.

 

[SteveGC]

I agree with u up to a point. How are we going to do good works we are wicked its only by the Holy Spirit within us can we do good works. Even good works can be done for selfish reasons. Doing confirmation does not bring someone closer to God. What brings us closer is humility, love for all people only through Gods spirit can we do this.

We aren’t as wicked as you might think. But yes, we must have faith first, otherwise, works (obedience) is done selfishly, and is therefore empty. Not sure why you brought up confirmation, as this is a profession of faith (much like a fundamentalist ‘altar call’), but much more. Catholics have always been taught (and practicing Catholics have always understood) that humility is fundamental to our relationship with God, as it is the virtue which combats and defeats pride (original sin).

I wouldnt go as far to say catholics are the most in tuned christians

Perhaps I should say, then, some of the most…

in my opinion thye have let tradition overide the bible. And you know thats a no no.

Depends on what you think we mean by Tradition. Our Tradition is not of the kind Jesus condemned. Quite the contrary, it is the Tradition He instituted, through the Church. There are other places in Scripture where we are to hold to tradition. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 for starters. So then, brothers, stand firm, and cling to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter. This is the Tradition of the Church. Click here to read The Church’s own explanation

I agree with laying on of hands but there is no leader of the church but Jesus Christ.

Christ is the spiritual leader, and He works through the earthly leader(s) He anointed with The Spirit of God at Pentecost. In succession, these are represented by the Popes, and their Bishops. What version of ‘laying on of hands’ do you agree with?

You know as much as I do catholics look up to the pope like he is a God. Come on. Theres no nedd at all to bow to him. I only bow to Jesus.

No I don’t know as much as you do about that. No Catholic looks at the Pope as if he is God. Where’d you get such a notion?

The bible was put together in the council of nicea. Back then the church was filled witht the Holy Spirit and He directed the compilation. The new testament was written by apostles who were there with Christ and people who apostles taught about Christ. They had close intimacy with the Lord and people close to the Lord.

Actually it was the councils of Rome and Hippo. Nicea convened to confirm the nature of Jesus, and as a result, established the creed, our profession of belief. You also downplayed the human involvement quite a bit, as if this aspect was inconsequential, and of no more meaning to us today. These were very important men who were inspired and protected by the Holy Spirit. Of what importance were they before and after the Bible was canonized? Does their existence not really matter? Just the book they came together to canonize for us?

The Logical Conclusion: The Bible Cannot Err

This isn’t a logical conclusion, for it draws as it’s source, merely itself. I could write a book and tell you how inspired it is. The Koran, in its own way says ‘it is written’ and ‘inspired by God’…but why don’t you believe that? There has to be something OUTSIDE of Scripture, to let us know we can fully TRUST Scripture.

LOVE YA BROTHER AND GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.

Same to you.