What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic

[joe370]

All takers welcomed…

If some teachings MUST BE DROPPED, before certain people would even remotely consider entering into the C.C. then I guess the question is: did Jesus fail to be the King, Head and Savior of His Body, which is comprised of brothers and sisters in Christ from all walks of life, or did the anti-Christ succeed at converting some of the wheat to chaff in Jesus’ One Church, over a 2000 year period, as he did with Judas, leaving Jesus’ Mystical Body, firmly in tact?

Did the anti-Christ defeat Christ and His established church circa 33 AD, necessitating the need for Christ to build a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th church, to the tune of thousands of churches, in the world today???

The burden of proof vis-a-vis these questions, does not lie on mere men or on the Infallible word of God, codified/canonized by mere sinful fallible men; it lies squarely on the Spiritual shoulders of the Holy Spirit, Who is the Spirit of Truth, Who was commissioned by God on Pentecost to “teach” and “guide” Jesus’ One Church into unity and oneness…in perpetuity, as per John 14!!!

Did the Holy Spirit FAIL at some point in the past; did He leave Jesus’ established church at some point in the past, in favor of another church, not built by Jesus Christ? If he did, why doesn’t the bible mention this momentous occasion; I thought ALL was/is revealed in the Sacred books of Holy Scripture; I thought everything else was/is extraneous and unnecessary? If the Holy Spirit did in fact fail, then Janet is absolutely correct, and the C.C. and all churches in her wake, via a domino effect, failed --is failing --or will fail, once she, as the bride of Christ, is built!

Did the H.S. “guide” and “teach” Jesus’ One church to in turn teach a bogus doctrine, such as purgatory, as per Janet -or again, did the H.S. leave Jesus’ established church, allowing mere men to teach a bogus doctrine such as purgatory, in Jesus’ One established church circa 33 AD?

Jesus’ established church circa 33 AD, cannot teach infallibly vis-a-vis faith and morals, without the Infallible Holy Spirit --Is that a reasonable assessment?

Can Jesus’ established church circa 33 AD, teach fallibly vis-a-vis faith and morals, if the Infallible Holy Spirit is “teaching” and guiding" the bride of Christ?

If for example the C.C. got it wrong vis-a-vis purgatory, then the H.S. got it wrong --Is that a reasonable assessment!!! Doe the H.S. teach infallibly or fallibly?

Would Jesus really allow mere men to totally eviscerate what He built?

Mere men, without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, from day one, could not teach with authority, as per Matthew 28:20 and Acts 1! And they could not continue to teach with authority through the centuries…continue to teach with authority, until Jesus returns, at which point He will separate the chaff from the wheat, and present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish, in the new heaven and the new earth…the new Jerusalem -----if the H.S. abandoned Jesus’ One church to which He is the Head and Savior! Is that a fair assessment?

 

[joe370]

Christian7801, you said:

You have the political aspect correct IMO, but on the wrong side. These additional books are with historic and geographical error and therefore are not inspired nor infallible and therefore are not from God…would you still agree that something with historical and geographical error is not from God?

**Is the bible a history book; is the bible a geography book, or is the bible a collection of books about God, Who is Pure Love, and His redemptive Plan for man/womankind?
**

Historical and geographical errors can be found in the N.T. as well; should we jettison those books as well? Would you agree that something with error is not from God?

2 Macc states that it is not inspired; so to make something part of the word of God that clearly isn’t; doesn’t make any sense to me…does it to you? Is that Vincent Lewis?

**Prove it my friend!!! I could say the book of James is not inspired; does that declaration make it uninspired? **

Verse 63 is not an effort to dismiss; it is an effort to pull all the preceding thought into the proper context unless someone else falls away with the literal crowd in unbelief. I think Jesus said this to make sure His disciples did not fall into the same error as the crowd that left…it is one of the most straightforward and clear passages IMO.

Exactly…He didn’t want them to fall into the same error, and yes, it is indeed one of the most straightforward and clear passages IMHO.

 

[joe370]

“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”

Christian7801–again, if you choose to answer these questions, please do so without any preconceived notions; remove the teachings of the C.C. FROM YOUR MIND; REMOVE THE TEACHINGS OF YOUR CHURCH FROM YOUR MIND; SIMPLY EMPLOY REASON AND LOGIC TO DRAW YOUR CONCLUSION!!!

Prior to saying, it is the Spirit who gives life, what does Jesus command us all to do, repeatedly? We are to eat His flesh and drink His blood if we want eternal life, as per John 6 -right?

Are we in agreement that we are to eat something and drink something, IF WE WANT ETERNAL LIFE?

If Jesus ascended into Heaven, and prior to that, nobody carnally ate Jesus’ flesh or drank His blood, do you think they probably understood the meaning of John 6:63, after His ascension?

Doesn’t it make sense to think that Jesus was speaking spiritually when He said: unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood…After all, Jesus’ true form is of the spirit, not the flesh, however He became flesh, and profits SOMETHING, NOT NOTHING --Agreed! !

If all things are possible for God, do you think God could transform bread and wine into His flesh and blood, or is this feat to great for God?

Is it Jesus’ spiritual flesh and spiritual blood we are to eat and drink, or is it His carnal flesh and blood we are to eat and drink?

If Jesus wanted to, could He convert the bread and wine into His carnal flesh and blood, or is this beyond His scope?

Did the Jewish grumblers walk away, thinking that Jesus was speaking in metaphor, as you think and do, or did they walk away thinking He was speaking in a literal sense? The difference between you and the grumblers is that they believed, and you do not. Is that a reasonable assessment?

Why did they walk away -period, after witnessing an incredible miracle??? Why did they walk away even though He said:

“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”

Christian7801, why didn’t the Jewish grumblers interpret John 6:63 as you do?

Did Peter, a Jew and the Apostles, also Jews, walk away after Jesus said, unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood…

When Jesus said: “Do you also want to leave?” --did they leave, or did Simon Peter say:

“Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”

Seven times Jesus said, unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood…Do you think Peter believed that these are words of eternal life considering the fact that Jesus said:

“Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.”

Do you believe that Jesus’ flesh profits nothing, or is it our flesh that profits nothing?

At any time did Jesus say: It is the symbol of my flesh who gives life…it is a symbol of my flesh you are to eat??? How does one eat a symbol?

Again, looking forward to your responses…

 

[joe370]

jsanturce, you said:

Being born and raised catholic I give thanks for metally learning about the Lord. But the catholic church falls so short in so many ways. I am now a born again christian.

So, Jesus’ established Church, which is His Mystical Body, to which He is the Head and Savior, falls so short in so many ways? The Holy Spirit, which was sent to Jesus’ establish church circa 33 AD, to “teach” and “guide” the bride of Christ in perpetuity, falls so short in so many ways? If this is true, then ALL churches established by mere men for short as well -Agreed?

1. I believe Jesus is the only way to heaven period not by works but by trust in him. You dont have to be a catholic and do communion, confirmation etc to be accepted by God. Thats one teaching I totally disagree with.

If I believe Jesus is the only way, which of course all catholics do, and I lead a greedy, self indulgent, selfish life, will I be saved when I take my last breath? Do I have to be a protestant, and embrace sola scriptura via private interpretation to to be accepted by God? Sola sriptura is one teaching I totally disagree with.

1. I 100% do not believe the pope is infallible and his word is equal witht the bible. The bible is the only source of truth not the pope. He is a sinful man like all of us.

I am a catholic and I too 100% do not believe the pope is infallible, but I do believe that the Holy Spirit is Infallible; do you believe that the H.S. is Infallible? Was the Holy Spirit sent to you or me on Pentecost or was He sent to Jesus’ established church 2000 years ago on Pentecost? Can I teach on a par with say Peter and Paul; do I possess the same authority as they did, 2000 years ago, when Jesus said to them:

“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” Matthew 28:20

“But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts 1

Who does???

1. Bowing down to statues and images and the pope is not what the bible teaches Jesus told us we must worship God in spirit and truth.

So, a statue or representation, such as the crucifix, of Jesus Christ is blasphemy? Interesting!!! Bowing down to the pope; where is that taught in the CCC? All catholics worship God in spirit and truth.

1. The catholic church is so dead when it comes to being on fire for God and they dont encourage the people to read Gods word the bible.

**Jesus’ established church, which is Jesus’ Body to which He is the Head and Savior is so dead? Yikes! Why would the Catholic Church encourage people not to read the bible; she was the one who compiled and canonized it? So silly!

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says: The Church forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful to learn ‘the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ,’ by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. ‘Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.’
**

I dont know of any catholics who live different than the world does. Im just being honest.

You mean, you are just in denial, with a bias against the C.C. -perhaps!!!

And I never seen a catholic witness his faith in Jesus to anyone.

**GEE, I WONDER WHY…
**

The church is too passive and caught in the curse of tradition which is what the Lord Jesus got so mad at the pharasies about.

**You mean like the made made tradition handed down to the non-Catholic world by Martin Luther --sola scriptura via private interpretation? **

These are just a few of the things that need to change I could never go back to being a catholic because of these teachings. I love my catholic brothers and sisters its just that they just dont understand the bible and what the Lord taught.

**Perhaps we should all defer to you when it comes to understanding the bible and what the Lord taught? Seriously, to whom should we defer; Jesus said, take it to the church? Which church??? If you love your catholic brothers and sisters in Christ, then why don’t you learn a little bit about what they believe; perhaps you could read the CCC…
**
I hope the have a revival in the church cause all of my family is catholic and they are being led astray. God Bless

**Even if they did, why would you trust it?
**

They are being led astray…and you know this based on whose authority???

 

[joe370]

**Hello Pastor Gary, you quoted Martin Luther; I use to belong to the Lutheran church until I learned exactly what Martin Luther did and said and believed. As far as doctrines such as Mary’s perpetual virginity and her Immaculate Conception, you do realize that he embraced both? You too must embrace both, I would imagine? Do you believe in sola scriptura via private interpretation, as a Pastor? **

We should fear and love God so that we do not deceitfully belie, betray, backbite, nor slander our neighbor, but apologize for him, speak well of him, and put the most charitable construction on all that he does.
(Luther’s explanation of the 8th commandment)

In your opinion do the brothers and sisters in Christ at the C.C. fear and love God so that they do not deceitfully belie, betray, backbite, nor slander their neighbor, but apologize for him, speak well of him, and put the most charitable construction on all that he does.

Respectfully Joe370…

 

[bobzills]

Of course we will do works by Gods grace and the power of the Holy Spirit. But remember the thief on the cross he didnt do any works but he just put his trust and faith in the Lord and the Lord said “TODAY YOU WILL BE IN PARADISE WITH ME”. No works he was a thief all his life it was his faith that saved him through Gods grace. Throughout the Gospels there are plenty of cases of instant salvation in peoples lives no works no communion , confirmation, pennance etc. Just faith and trust in the Lord. He is awesome and so gracious but we must first repent and trust. Thats it. Then the holy spirit comes to live on the inside of you then He does the rest through you.

Interesting about the good thief but some have said that the Greek should be read: “I tell you today, you will be with Me in Paradise”. Also, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He may not have meant heaven, but a part of sheol reserved for the saved, the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Also, one day with the Lord is as a thousand years. How long was this day of which Christ had spoken? It could be that the thief still had to spend some time in Purgatory before reaching the end of the one day when he would be in paradise. Remember that Jesus did not go to Heaven that very Friday as we find out when Jesus tells Mary Magdalene, on Sunday, that He has not ascended to the Father yet. Therefore, Jesus and the thief did not go directly to Heaven on Friday.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

 

[joe370]

jsanturce, you said to Guanophore:

OK you bombarded me so let me answer Guanophore first.

1. How are you a born again christian? by being catholic? I was not born again when I attended catholic church I was practicing sin all the time thinking I was ok with God and thats how all catholics I know live.

**Are not all Christians born into a church? I attended the Lutheran church and I was practicing sin, thinking I was OK with God and thats how a lot of protestants live. However, not all protestants; I know some awesome non-Catholics. Let us not forget; we are all sinners!
**

They assume cause there catholic there saved thats not true.

**That is a complete falsehood! Catholics truly believe in picking up their crosses and following their Savior through emulation!!!
**

There need to be repentence (turning away from sin) and heart inspired trust in the Lord then he will come to live on the inside of you and he changes you. We cannot change our sinful nature God helps us through the holy spirit. So I was not born again.

What does this have to do with the C.C.? They/I agree with you. Was I born again as a Lutheran, or did that happen when I came back to the C.C.? There are literally thousands of churches in the world today; are they all born again?

1. We agree we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
2. I understand the bible pretty well I read my word everyday and I love reading the word but we all can learn new things everyday including the Pope. The holy spirit is the teacher not man. I also know how the bible was assembled and the history.

We are all endowed with the H.S. as Christians, however the H.S. was not sent to all Christians on Pentecost; He was sent to Jesus’ One Apostolic church, which endowed Jesus’ apostles to teach all that He commanded --right? That doesn’t mean we can’t teach as well; we are all part of the royal priesthood, and we are all like living stones, built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ; we are All, as Christians a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, and are to announce the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. However when it comes to unresolvable issues, what did Jesus tell us to do??? Matthew 18:17…

You said: I also know how the bible was assembled and the history. How…?

1. You say the church does not teach idolatry but how come we always lite candles to porcelein statues and kiss the cross etc etc. Isnt that a form of idolatry when Christ said to worship the Lord in spirit and truth.

**Lighting candles is idolatry? A statue of Jesus Christ, and kissing the cross, which represents the only thing that matters in this life, is a form of idolatry? really??? When you see a crucifix, what is the first thing you think of? Is it a pagan God of the O.T. OR IS IT JESUS CHRIST? **

There are no holy buildings or relics anymore (the temple, the ark etc). We are the temple of God now.

**Agreed; the church is an assembly of brothers and sisters in Christ, with our brothers, the apostles as the foundation, and our Brother and Savior Jesus Christ as the Divine Cornerstone, keeping His established church united and one; did Jesus succeed at keeping His established church circa 33 AD, united and one, or did He fail? Do you think the apostles would be happy to see all the division, disunity and division in the protestant world today, considering the fact that they taught just the opposite??? **

I thank you for responding to me and its always good to have peaceful dialogue.

**I too hope to hear from you, and I as all catholics do, believe its always good to have peaceful dialogue. **

Dont take me wrong I know there are catholics who love the Lord and are born again but most of the ones I see and know just dont understand the faith and I blame the catholic church for that they just dont stress the repentence and reading of the word enough. Most catholics are bible illiterate and thats the problem.

**Do you believe that catholics at this site, understand their faith? Do you blame any protestant churches, all established by men, as opposed to Jesus, 1500 years removed from Pentecost, for anything, or is just the church built by Christ? Not one church was built by Christ other than the E.O.C. and the C.C. for those 2 churches are the only churches that can trace their lineage all the way back to the Apostles! EVERY OTHER CHURCH WAS ESTABLISHED BY A MERE MAN; GIVE ME THE NAME OF ANY PROTESTANT CHURCH AND I CAN GIVE YOU THE NAME OF HER FOUNDER!!!

Vis-a-vis repentance and the bible, you are SORELY WRONG **

 

[mmmcounts]

If the Catholic Church were a lot more like the Orthodox Church, I’d be far more inclined to consider it. Aside from the obvious Pope difference, the Orthodox Church is typified by a refreshing brevity where they keep their dogmatic statements short and concise in order to avoid stepping beyond what is appropriate. Basically, they know when to shut up and the Catholic Church does not.

This applies to a ridiculous number of things, but just one example is the eucharist. The Orthodox Church calls it “a mystery” and simply says “It is the body and blood of Christ.” They know when to shut up. They only things you’ll hear from them beyond those simple statements is the expression of the belief that what is “real” need not come into conflict with what is “symbolical” and “mystical”- basically, a request that you also shut up and stop bickering needlessly.

The Catholic Church is quite different. It does not know when to shut up. I wish it did. Instead, it goes on to talk about the precise nature of Jesus’ presence. For example…

The whole of Christ is really, truly, and substantially contained…This presence is **called ‘real’ **- by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present…Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. The power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed…Could not Christ’s word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature…Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.

Shut up already! That’s more than enough! This is actually counter-productive. It’s called “sacrament” for a reason. It means “mystery.” But have we finished with attempting to unravel the mystery in its entirety? No, not even close.

The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ…Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. “The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession.”…The tabernacle was first intended for the reservation of the Eucharist in a worthy place so that it could be brought to the sick and those absent outside of Mass. As faith in the real presence of Christ in his Eucharist deepened, the Church became conscious of the meaning of silent adoration of the Lord present under the Eucharistic species. It is for this reason that the tabernacle should be located in an especially worthy place in the church and should be constructed in such a way that it emphasizes and manifests the truth of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament…

You see what I mean about taking it too far and not knowing when to shut up?

In summary, if the Catholic Church didn’t have the papal position and did a better job of just knowing when to stop, I would be much more inclined to give it consideration. There are a few other things, but those are the main ones that could use the most work.

 

[gcnuss]

Hello Pastor Gary, you quoted Martin Luther; I use to belong to the Lutheran church until I learned exactly what Martin Luther did and said and believed. As far as doctrines such as Mary’s perpetual virginity and her Immaculate Conception, you do realize that he embraced both? You too must embrace both, I would imagine?

I have no reason to dispute Mary’s perpetual virginity and her Immaculate Conception. However, I don’t consider them to be essential to my faith in Christ nor to my belief that Mary is the model of faith and obedience.

**Do you believe in sola scriptura via private interpretation, as a Pastor? **

My interpretation of sola scriptura is that it means that scripture is the ultimate authority, i.e., no teaching of the church may contradict scripture. I do not consider private interpretation to be, in and of itself, harmful although I would be very cautious about embracing any interpretation that is in conflict with the understanding of scripture that has been developed throughout the ages.

We should fear and love God so that we do not deceitfully belie, betray, backbite, nor slander our neighbor, but apologize for him, speak well of him, and put the most charitable construction on all that he does.
(Luther’s explanation of the 8th commandment)

In your opinion do the brothers and sisters in Christ at the C.C. fear and love God so that they do not deceitfully belie, betray, backbite, nor slander their neighbor, but apologize for him, speak well of him, and put the most charitable construction on all that he does.

My experience here on the forum is that most of my Catholic brothers and sisters (and most non-Catholics as well) are charitable and generous in our discussions. I have been a member of this forum for some time and value the exchange of ideas and information here, as well as the wonderful expressions of faith that I read. On the other hand, there are a few folks (Catholics and non-Catholics) who seem to delight is stirring up controversy in such a way that I occasionally fail to think charitably of them, although I try to avoid saying that in black and white.

 

[jsanturce]

We aren’t as wicked as you might think. But yes, we must have faith first, otherwise, works (obedience) is done selfishly, and is therefore empty. Not sure why you brought up confirmation, as this is a profession of faith (much like a fundamentalist ‘altar call’), but much more. Catholics have always been taught (and practicing Catholics have always understood) that humility is fundamental to our relationship with God, as it is the virtue which combats and defeats pride (original sin).

Perhaps I should say, then, some of the most…

Depends on what you think we mean by Tradition. Our Tradition is not of the kind Jesus condemned. Quite the contrary, it is the Tradition He instituted, through the Church. There are other places in Scripture where we are to hold to tradition. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 for starters. So then, brothers, stand firm, and cling to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter. This is the Tradition of the Church. Click here to read The Church’s own explanation

Christ is the spiritual leader, and He works through the earthly leader(s) He anointed with The Spirit of God at Pentecost. In succession, these are represented by the Popes, and their Bishops. What version of ‘laying on of hands’ do you agree with?

No I don’t know as much as you do about that. No Catholic looks at the Pope as if he is God. Where’d you get such a notion?

Actually it was the councils of Rome and Hippo. Nicea convened to confirm the nature of Jesus, and as a result, established the creed, our profession of belief. You also downplayed the human involvement quite a bit, as if this aspect was inconsequential, and of no more meaning to us today. These were very important men who were inspired and protected by the Holy Spirit. Of what importance were they before and after the Bible was canonized? Does their existence not really matter? Just the book they came together to canonize for us?

This isn’t a logical conclusion, for it draws as it’s source, merely itself. I could write a book and tell you how inspired it is. The Koran, in its own way says ‘it is written’ and ‘inspired by God’…but why don’t you believe that? There has to be something OUTSIDE of Scripture, to let us know we can fully TRUST Scripture.

Same to you.

I guess we disagree and we are not going to convince each other. My profession of faith is Jesus is the only way to heaven no men, no works, no church, no denomination, and no man made tradition will change that. The bible is the only word of God period. Not any catechism or tradition thats all man made. The bible is the inspired word of God. If you dont believe the whole bible then what do you do pick and choose what you want to believe that supports your tradition I dont get that last statement you made. Its puzzling.
In terms of laying of hands and popes and bishops God chooses who he wants to be a leader not man. Some of the greatest Pastors arent from any seminaries they were called by the Lord and obeyed his call. Maybe at one time early on the catholic church followed the ways of the apostles but they fell so far away from the apostles teachings because of man made tradition. So many things corrupt popes instituted that are not even biblical (some examples praying to Mary, and Marys acension, purgatory, indulgences). The catholic church in my opinion needs a total revival but they will never let it happen because the vatican believes in tradition above the bible. Thats my greatest problem with the church. All across this country and the world catholic churches are empty and catholics are flocking to protestant churches. Dont get me wrong I am also totally against the prosperity gospel and all that bologne. We need to get back to prayer meetings, fasting, and solely the apostles teachings and the bible as the only source of authority. Then you might see changes in the lives of catholics. Remember its not about the catholic church its about Jesus.

 

[guanophore]

works alone are the 2 words there. Its not by works at all unless men can boast. Its by faith alone through Christ alone. Period NO works. Read Romans and Galatians.

I think this is overcompensating to the other extreme. THe fact that we cannot work our way into heaven is not equivalent to works having no place in salvation. It is clear, if one is willing to read beyond Eph 2:8&9 to v. 10 that the whole PURPOSE for which we have been saved by grace through faith is to DO THE WORKS that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. These works are not to be separated from the faith through which we are saved by grace. This is why James says that faith without works is dead. Faith is NEVER alone. IT is always accompanied by works that demonstrate it’s saving character.

Thats another problem catholics believe u can enter heaven just by being a good person I saw one of the famous priest on Larry King say as long as youa re a good person u go to heaven. What happen to when Jesus said “I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE NO MAN ENTERS THE KINDOM OF GOD EXCEPT THROUGH ME”. Or do we ignore that.

No, the teaching of the Church is that we appreciate that some people do not know or recognize the God who is saving them. Scripture is clear that those who have never heard of Christ are judged in the light of their conscience. This is also in the catechism, which you can access for free online.

But he is not an apostle he is a regular sinner like me and u.

Are there “irregular” sinners? Do you imagine that the Apostles were not “regular sinners like you and me”? If they were not, they would not NEED the gift of infallibility. Paul wrote of his sinful shorcomings extensively, and testified of himself that he was not worthy to be called an Apostle. Yet the Word of God was working through him infallibly. God gave him this gift, as it was given to all those who were authorized to preach and write the NT, so that the NT would be free from error. God gives the same gift today, so that His promise to lead the Church into all truth. The gift does not prevent people from sinning, it prevents the Church from being led astray by the sinfulness of man.

You can respect him but he is just a man if you are a born again believer your prayer is just as powerful as his. In revelations the angel tells John “get up dont bow down to me only bow down to God”. Your telling me he is to be reverenced more than angels.

The customary manners demonstrated to the Pope are as much cultural as anything else. Showing hnor and reverence to persons who have consecrated their whole lives to the service of God is beneficial to all “…outdo one another in showing honor.” Rom 12:10-11

Eph 5:21-22

21 Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.

17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching; 1 Tim 5:17-18

Why criticize Catholics for showing double honor and reverence to this man who we respect as one who “rules well”? What do you think these scriptures mean?

I disagree about the prayer too. Not every born again Christians’s prayer has the same power. Some people’s prayers are hindered for various reasons. Scripture is clear that there are some persons’ prayers who are more effective.

I dont see any sign of this I hope its true.

I think that the majority of Catholics are grossly lacking in zeal and commitment in their faith. If this were not the case, our country would be in very different conditions right now.

The bible is the final authority no church and no man.

Actually, Christ is the final authority. He appointed the Apostles, who then appointed successors. Authority cannot belong to writing, Holy as it may be, as it requires the ability to take responsibility, as the Sacred Scripture does not.

You have embraced a a grievious error in this area. Even scripture itself testifies against this.

 

[guanophore]

My profession of faith is Jesus is the only way to heaven no men, no works, no church, no denomination, and no man made tradition will change that.

Jesus is the only way to heaven. But He did not separate Himself from men in so doing, or from His Body, the Church. I agree that man made traditions will not change this, but you seem to fail to distinguish between sacred tradition, and human customs.

The bible is the only word of God period.

Even the Bible itself gives ample testimony otherwise.

Not any catechism or tradition thats all man made.

You speak as though you are not aware that Sacred Tradition exists.

The bible is the inspired word of God. If you dont believe the whole bible then what do you do pick and choose what you want to believe that supports your tradition I dont get that last statement you made. Its puzzling.

The NT comes out of Sacred Tradition. That is why there is nothing in it that contradicts Catholic Teaching. They both come from one and the same Source.

In terms of laying of hands and popes and bishops God chooses who he wants to be a leader not man.

Well, sure! But He reveals His choices to the Church, so that they can authenticate those whom He has chosen. This is how He set it up.

Some of the greatest Pastors arent from any seminaries they were called by the Lord and obeyed his call. Maybe at one time early on the catholic church followed the ways of the apostles but they fell so far away from the apostles teachings because of man made tradition.

This statement will require much more explanation on your part. What falling away is that?

So many things corrupt popes instituted that are not even biblical (some examples praying to Mary, and Marys acension, purgatory, indulgences).

None of these things were 'instituted by popes", corrupt or not.

Your statement also reflects the error that all of our faith practices should be found in scripture. The Catholic faith is not a “religion of the book”, as is often erroneously thought.

The catholic church in my opinion needs a total revival but they will never let it happen because the vatican believes in tradition above the bible.

No, the Catholic Church believes that Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are equal.

2 Thess 2:15
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

IT seems odd to me that you would be so critical of Christians that have stringently obeyed this Apostolic command, to hold firm. Protestants have been separated from the Sacred Traditions, and therefore have not been able to obey this directive.

Besides that, revival happens by the movement of the Holy Spirit, who is bound neither by scripture, or tradition.

Thats my greatest problem with the church. All across this country and the world catholic churches are empty and catholics are flocking to protestant churches. Dont get me wrong I am also totally against the prosperity gospel and all that bologne. We need to get back to prayer meetings, fasting, and solely the apostles teachings and the bible as the only source of authority. Then you might see changes in the lives of catholics. Remember its not about the catholic church its about Jesus.

There is no separation between Jesus, and His Holy Bride,the Church. He completely identifies Himself with her.

 

[joe370]

**Hello gcnuss…

You said:**

I have no reason to dispute Mary’s perpetual virginity and her Immaculate Conception. However, I don’t consider them to be essential to my faith in Christ nor to my belief that Mary is the model of faith and obedience.

**Well that is certainly refreshing to hear my friend, especially coming from a Lutheran brother in Christ. Do you believe that the Apostles were models of faith and obedience; I know I do, and they were not immaculately conceived. If the blessed mother Mary was immaculately conceived, making her uniquely the only human being, past present and future to have been blessed by God, with this honorable distinction, so that Jesus could become one with flesh that was sin free, then how can she not be a model of faith and obedience? As a Pastor, I consider you a model of faith and obedience, and like me, you are a sinner; if you were immaculately conceived, I would consider you a perfect paragon of faith and obedience, and a perfect beacon of light, pointing directly at Jesus Christ!!! **

My interpretation of sola scriptura is that it means that scripture is the ultimate authority, i.e., no teaching of the church may contradict scripture.

**That is what I never understood as a Lutheran; today we see thousands of divided and insular denominational/nondenominational non-Catholic churches, the world over, all teaching/shepherding their isolated congregations, with the Holy Bible as their only authority; sola scriptura AS OUR EXCLUSIVE AUTHORITY, via private interpretation has led to this chaos, confusion, disunity, dissension and division in the protestant world IMHO. Prior to the reformation, Jesus’ established church circa 33 AD was one and united, with the exception of the E.O.C., however they pretty much embrace everything the C.C. embraces. Jesus said:

*When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together. And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, and it filled the entire house in which they were. Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, which parted and came to rest on each one of them. And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, 4 as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim. *Acts 2

*"**But you will receive power ***when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." Acts 1

*“All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, *baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

All power in heaven and on earth was given to Jesus Christ, yet He still empowered His Apostolic Church, via the Infallible Holy Spirit of course, on Pentecost, to go out into world and be witnesses, starting in Jerusalem, then through Judea and Samaria and finally to the ends of the earth, making disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe all that Jesus commanded!!! Actual sinful, fallible men, starting on Pentecost, comprising the very foundation of Jesus’ One Church, were saddled with the power, authority and responsibility, again, given to them by Jesus, to teach, preach, and be witnesses and shepherds, guiding Jesus’ One church established by Christ, and this guidance and teaching is only possible, if these sinful fallible members, the bride of Christ, are being taught and guided themselves, by the Holy Spirit, in perpetuity, as per John 14 and Matthew 28:20! According to the Holy Bible, Jesus’ Apostolic Church received power when the holy Spirit came upon them, and they in turn, with said power, were witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. Of course they were not witnesses to the ends of the earth, but they, through the imposition of hands, transferred that power, of the Holy Spirit to successors, and this was/is to be done in perpetuity, if in fact there are to be sinful, fallible, teachers, witnesses and shepherds of Jesus’ established church circa 33 AD, guiding Jesus’ One church to the ends of the earth, with the Holy Spirit in the Divine backdrop, guiding these fallible, sinful teachers. these church leaders possess zero power to do anything; all of the bishops are powerless without the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is the Divine Rudder steering Jesus’ Mystical Body to which He is the Head and Savior, in the right direction; if you take away the Holy Spirit, you take away the Divine Rudder, and the vessel will ultimately crash, thanks to the anti-Christ’s never ending onslaught against Jesus’ Mystical Body. Jesus’ Body to which He is the Head and Savior, as you know, is comprised of all the brothers and sisters in Christ; we are saved if we belong to Jesus’ church. So, when people say, I only need the One Christ, what they are really saying is, I only need to belong to Jesus’ One church to which He is the Head and Savior! This was where my journey home to the C.C. began, never ever to impugn the wonderful works of so many wonderful protestant churches, of course!!! **

continued…

 

[joe370]

I do not consider private interpretation to be, in and of itself, harmful although I would be very cautious about embracing any interpretation that is in conflict with the understanding of scripture that has been developed throughout the ages.

**Actually I think private interpretation is a wonderful thing as long as we take it to the church as per Sacred Scripture, before we express our interpretations! Matthew 18:17 How can we know when we are embracing an interpretation that is in conflict with the understanding of scripture that has been developed throughout the ages? I could not answer this question as a former Lutheran.
**
My experience here on the forum is that most of my Catholic brothers and sisters (and most non-Catholics as well) are charitable and generous in our discussions. I have been a member of this forum for some time and value the exchange of ideas and information here, as well as the wonderful expressions of faith that I read. On the other hand, there are a few folks (Catholics and non-Catholics) who seem to delight is stirring up controversy in such a way that I occasionally fail to think charitably of them, although I try to avoid saying that in black and white.

**We are of the same mind vis-a-vis the controversy issue!!! I bet you are a wonderful Pastor to your congregation; you certainly have a wonderful disposition when it comes to debating with brothers and sisters in Christ, outside your sphere of Christianity!!! If you get the chance, could you share your views vis-a-vis this post? **

God bless you Pastor…

 

[bobzills]

Of course we will do works by Gods grace and the power of the Holy Spirit. But remember the thief on the cross he didnt do any works but he just put his trust and faith in the Lord and the Lord said “TODAY YOU WILL BE IN PARADISE WITH ME”. No works he was a thief all his life it was his faith that saved him through Gods grace. Throughout the Gospels there are plenty of cases of instant salvation in peoples lives no works no communion , confirmation, pennance etc. Just faith and trust in the Lord. He is awesome and so gracious but we must first repent and trust. Thats it. Then the holy spirit comes to live on the inside of you then He does the rest through you.

So if you will be saved by just faith and trust in the Lord, how would you explain the words of Jesus:Matthew 7:21: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”

 

[jlhargus]

the bible as the only source of authority.

JL: Seriously you are not even listening to your only source of authority? 1Tm3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, THE PILLAR AND GROUND OF THE TRUTH. [Eph3:7 Whereof I was made A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE GIFT of the grace of God given unto me BY the effectual working OF HIS POWER. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is the fellowship of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God,] Mt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, TELL IT UNTO THE CHURCH: but IF HE NEGLECT TO HEAR THE CHURCH, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized and made a member of that one body of Christ the one and only Church Christ is building. They CONTINUED steadfastly in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship.] Mt16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR

Paul even checked his teaching with that fellowship to be sure he had not run in vain. Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN. Even though sent by Christ, Paul who had the gift of revelation, realized he could possibly not be preaching the same gospel as the Apostolic Fellowship. Paul was inspired by revelation to check his teaching with the teaching of the Apostles’ Fellowship. Those SENT by Christ, to teach ALL NATIONS and ALL Christ commanded till the end of the age. The Apostolic Fellowship Christ promised the Holy Spirit would guide in ALL TRUTH. If individual Christians had the ability to be led into all truth, because they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we would all be one without the lest disagreement. We can see that is not the case.

 

[SteveGC]

I guess we disagree and we are not going to convince each other. My profession of faith is Jesus is the only way to heaven no men, no works, no church, no denomination, and no man made tradition will change that. The bible is the only word of God period.

Sorry to be the bearer of ‘bad’ news, js. The bible is given to you by tradition, by men (who worked hard to bring it about), by The Church. To claim the Bible without knowing or accepting from whence it came, is a bit selfish, don’t you think? If you claim that all the instruments used to bring you the Bible are not worthy of your acceptance, why should the Bible be worthy, which came from those instruments?

The bible is the inspired word of God. If you dont believe the whole bible then what do you do pick and choose what you want to believe that supports your tradition I dont get that last statement you made. Its puzzling.

Here was my last statement, which I made based on your scriptural evidence that scripture is inerrant.

This isn’t a logical conclusion, for it draws as it’s source, merely itself. I could write a book and tell you how inspired it is. The Koran, in its own way says ‘it is written’ and ‘inspired by God’…but why don’t you believe that? There has to be something OUTSIDE of Scripture, to let us know we can fully TRUST Scripture.

You said this puzzles you. I’m not sure why. It’s quite simple really. I’m basically asking you ‘how do you trust something so deeply when there is nothing but itself (the words within it) that tell you to trust it’. If I wrote you a book, and told you to trust me personally with your salvation, because I’m God-inspired, and I told you this elaborate historical story of love and sacrifice, would you hold my book as sacred as you do the Bible? Why not?

 

[jlhargus]

The bible was put together in the council of nicea. Back then the church was filled witht the Holy Spirit and He directed the compilation. The new testament was written by apostles who were there with Christ and people who apostles taught about Christ. They had close intimacy with the Lord and people close to the Lord.

JL: I think you will find the cannon was not settled a Nicea, but later. You post, “Back then the church was filled with the Holy Spirit”. Then you should accept those teaching of the church before that time. I challenge you to read the early fathers and compare with your faith group’s teaching and that of the Catholic Church today.

 

[jlhargus]

All across this country and the world catholic churches are empty and catholics are flocking to protestant churches.

JL: Not so, Yes a lot of Catholics in western countries have fallen away from the faith. But in Africa the Church is growing by leaps and bounds in the last several decades. Also the church has been growing in Asia. Protestants have been loosing people in the western world also. Those falling away are not running to Protestant or Catholic churches.

Most converts to Protestant Churches are those who do not know the Catholic faith, in the first place. Second there are certain new Protestant Evangelical groups that specifically target those weak Catholics because they know they are easy prey. Many of those who are converts return to the Catholic faith within ten years, some even twenty years later, even after being a Protestant pastor.

Protestants tend to get Catholcs who are not versed in their faith or scripture. Catholcs tend to get Protestants who are well versed in their faith and scripture.

 

[SteveGC]

Protestants tend to get Catholics who are not versed in their faith or scripture. Catholics tend to get Protestants who are well versed in their faith and scripture.

A very salient point, JL. I would even contend that it goes well beyond “tend to”. My experience has leaned toward “definitely do”.