What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic

[joe370]

By jsanturce

All across this country and the world catholic churches are empty and catholics are flocking to protestant churches.

Which protestant church? Do we just pick one to our liking? Are all these divided protestant churches, of course teaching something different vis-a-vis doctrine --the One church built by Christ? Why aren’t these protestant churches united and one, as per the Holy Bible, under the same name, and the same set of teachings? Can you recommend any one particular church?

Not this catholic… I believe Jesus when He said:

“…and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever…”

“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”

If the Holy Spirit, as per the Bible, was sent to Jesus’ established Church on Pentecost, to empower the Bride of Christ FOREVER… empowering her to be witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth…empowering her to make disciples of all nations… empowering her to teach the world to observe all that Jesus commanded, then He is still empowering, teaching and guiding her, and she cannot err vis-a-vis everything Jesus commanded, otherwise to the victor goes the crown -the anti-Christ. Is that a fiar assessment?

"But you will receive power** when the holy Spirit comes upon you**, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." Acts 1

"Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold,* I am with you always, until the end of the age."**
*

If Jesus said, the gates of the netherworld (Jesus’ number 1 enemy; our number 1 enemy) will not prevail against My Church, to which I am the Head and Savior, then I for one, believe God; why don’t you? Many can and do attempt to pollute the members of Jesus’ established Church circa 33 AD, with the empowerment of the anti-Christ, with some degree of success, but, in the end, the Church, which is Jesus’ Mystical Body… an assembly of brothers and sisters in Christ, built by God, will prevail, even if many brothers and sisters in Christ do not! Is that a reasonable assessment? Considering what the Bible says about unity and oneness and division and dissension, do you really think He is happy with His fractured protestant churches??? Jesus said, …and upon this rock I will build my church, not churches -right?

Jesus said:

*“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it…?

Even if I was the only remaining Christian belonging to the C.C. I would not budge… *

 

[joe370]

Originally Posted by jlhargus View Post
Protestants tend to get Catholics who are not versed in their faith or scripture. Catholics tend to get Protestants who are well versed in their faith and scripture.

Well said my friend…The irony is quite compelling…

Cinette is right; keep it brief and simple! Pithiness is far more effective than verbosity…

 

[gcnuss]

If you get the chance, could you share your views vis-a-vis this post?

Joe,

Once I’m through today I’ll get back to you.

 

[benedictus2]

Good post I appreciate it. I believe you are right when you said it may-be not enough for me. I just don’t understand why the reverence you hold in your parish is not Universal. It sends alot of mixed messages to people who are not Catholic. I would think they all would treat the Mass as the Holy of Holies.

And therein lies the answer. A lot of Catholics are under catechized and there are also a lot who are dissidents.

There are some theologians within the Church who are teaching error and some Catholics think that they must be right so they follow them.

The church went through turmoil in the 1960 and 70s and a lot of parishes started trying new fangled stuff and this is where we end up.

I recently went on retreat at a centre where I swore I will never ever go back to again.
Everyone sat through the consecration!

It is sad because so many Catholics are losing this reverence for the Mass.

 

[benedictus2]

Answer part 3 of 3

1. Not accepting other Christian churches are equally valid and right while declaring that somebody who was raised in a totally different religion can obtain salvation if he was truly seeking after God… (Jesus said “I AM THE WAY” and He meant it) *The Catholic Church does not teach that nonCatholics do not have access to salvation. This is totally nonsense. Other Christian Churches are not equally valid no – they are our separated brethren. *
   If I may quote the CCC…
   “The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: ‘For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.’” Pg. 215, #816
   “…all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation…” Pg. 224, #846
   If the Catholic church is necessary to escape hell and reach heaven, would not God have clearly stated it in His Word… at least once? Why would Jesus repeatedly lie by saying that salvation is available through faith in Him?

Acts 2:47 "…And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved. "

What number is being spoken of here but the Church. There was only one Church then and it was the Catholic Church. Those who were being saved were being added to the Catholic Church.

No matter how much you may rant and rave at the Church, the truth is there is no salvation out side the Church.

You know why? Because the Bible you love so much came from the Catholic Church and you only know about Jesus Christ because of the Catholic Church.

This is the way Christ CHOSE to let the word know about Him - by establishing the Catholic Chuch.

He could have chosen to write his words,but He did not do that. He could have chosen to have a scribe follow him around, but He did not do that. He multiplied loaves and fishes so he could have easily wrote what He wants people to know and multiplied them but again He did not dot that.

What did He do? He built a Church and gave that Church the promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against her. And he did not stop theere when He could have. He continued, giving the keys to Peter and telling him that what ever Peter binds on earth, Christ will bind in heaven. What ever Peter looses on earth, Christ will loosed in heaven.

People who have an issue with the Catholic Church really have an issue with CHRIST’S WILL.

 

[benedictus2]

The Catholic church teaches that one has to be a member to obtain salvation (see above) and she also teaches that one has to do good works to be saved:
“Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved.” Pg. 222, #837
These works include baptism (pg. 320, #1257), various sacraments (pg. 292, #1129) plus many additional works.
The Bible however teaches us that we are saved by grace alone…
Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:

We are saved by Grace alone that is true. But do you understand what grace means or is that a word that you throw around without even fully grasphing its meaning.

Salvation by Grace simply means that it is free. That we do not deserve to be saved but God saves us anyway.

I have written this in reply to Craig Kennedy’s post but have you ever wondered about the How of salvation. Sure it is free. But how does God’s dying on the cross save us?

Have you ever thought of that? If you haven’t then think about it.

Why did God have to die on the cross and what does this dying accomplish?

If you can answer that satisfactorily then you will understand the how of salvation and why of salvation and you will realize why WORKS figure largely in it.

 

[jlhargus]

A very salient point, JL. I would even contend that it goes well beyond “tend to”. My experience has leaned toward “definitely do”.

JL: Thanks Steve. I agree with you, that has been my experience also.

 

[benedictus2]

Cinette, here are some more of my answers… I tried to keep it shorter this time…

Abolition of the following:

1. Veneration of the saints, especially Mary
2. Praying to saints
   To quote the Catechism:
   “By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All-Holy One… May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.” Pg. 644, #2677
   “From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of `Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs…” Pg. 253, #971
   “The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives… They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.” Pg. 645, #2683 (See also Pg. 249, #956)

It is praying to the saints. We should not try to be like the Saints, but to be like Jesus Christ. It is Him whom we should honor, not the ones who act according to His Word (if they do). We should cast our burdens on the Lord (Psalm 55:22), call upon Him (Psalm 145:18 ) and make our requests known to Him (Philippians 4:6 ).

The saints have given us concrete examples of how to follow Christ closely. It is their close following of Christ that make them worthy of emulation. That is why you have people joining specific congregations such as the Franciscans, Benedictines, etc. because the Saints who founded these congregation have specific charisms in the this Body of Christ. We are not all heads, or hands or feet. Each one is called for a purpose and these Saints gave us practical ways of following Christ.

You have an issue praying to saints. Do you ask others to pray for you? Do you pray for others? If so why? Isn’t your prayer for yourself enough? Isn’t their prayer for themselves enough?

If you answer, well the people I ask to pray for me are not dead, then therefore you think that once one has died then they go nowhere. So what is the point of salvation then. You are probably one of those who believe in OSAS.

Now let us suppose you have died. I would assume that since you believe in OSAS that you believe that you will go to heaven. If you go to heaven, are you still dead in heaven? Is that why you cannot pray for those here on earth?

But isn’t it true that those who have been saved are alive in Christ? If they are alive in Christ and beholding Christ face to face surely you can intercede for those here on earth more effectively?

As for Mary. Don’t you know what it means to be "Full of Grace’. We are all saved by grace yet she even before she died was declared already full of it. Grace could not be added to her because she is allready full of the saving grace of Christ.

 

[benedictus2]

I came across this post and have not looked at any responses.

As a revert to the Church and one who is eagerly learning I would venture to say that I believe that Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God. We all have a different understanding of what and who God is but we all recognize One God. Therefore I believe that we need to manifest respect for these other religions. Although we call God by different names we acknowledge that there is only one God. I believe we all pray to the same God.

When the Pope visited the mosque I believe he displayed respect in his manifestations. I have asked Muslims to pray for me and I have prayed for them. I do not agree with their interpretations of religion but I respect them. I feel the same about Jews.

I believe that Jesus would be pleased to see his His appointed Shepherd here on earth reach out to all people.

The Holy Father understands them better than I and I respect and trust him.

Cinette

Very well said!

 

[benedictus2]

Where in your Bible does it say that you need to “receive Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior”?

If we cannot “work out our salvation” what does this scripture mean?

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;" Phil 2:12-13

V
V
V

If this were the case, then God would not bother to work through any people to accomplish anything! On the contrary, the whole history of humanity with God is described by God choosing, preparing, and working through people to accomplish His purposes. You statement is akin to the heart saying to the womb “I have no need of you”.

Excellent responses as usual. You know how to hit the nail right on the head:thumbsup:

 

[benedictus2]

1. Excluding women from the clergy –

Janet, on the issue of women priests if you really want to be truly enlightened on this issue and not waddle about in this pool of ignorance I suggest you go to this website and download this talk by Peter Kreeft on Women and the Priesthood.

http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/09_priestesses.htm

 

[jlhargus]

If the Catholic Church were a lot more like the Orthodox Church, I’d be far more inclined to consider it. Aside from the obvious Pope difference, the Orthodox Church is typified by a refreshing brevity where they keep their dogmatic statements short and concise in order to avoid stepping beyond what is appropriate. Basically, they know when to shut up and the Catholic Church does not.

This applies to a ridiculous number of things, but just one example is the eucharist. The Orthodox Church calls it “a mystery” and simply says “It is the body and blood of Christ.” They know when to shut up. They only things you’ll hear from them beyond those simple statements is the expression of the belief that what is “real” need not come into conflict with what is “symbolical” and “mystical”- basically, a request that you also shut up and stop bickering needlessly.

The Catholic Church is quite different. It does not know when to shut up. I wish it did. Instead, it goes on to talk about the precise nature of Jesus’ presence. For example…

Shut up already! That’s more than enough! This is actually counter-productive. It’s called “sacrament” for a reason. It means “mystery.” But have we finished with attempting to unravel the mystery in its entirety? No, not even close.

You see what I mean about taking it too far and not knowing when to shut up?

In summary, if the Catholic Church didn’t have the papal position and did a better job of just knowing when to stop, I would be much more inclined to give it consideration. There are a few other things, but those are the main ones that could use the most work.

JL: No I do not see what you mean. I do see you have not become Orthodox, and the lines you posted explaining you beliefs tend to be wordy, not to mention tediously boring. Maybe your group should take your advise

 

[benedictus2]

Benedictus2: Greetings in the Name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ; from the ignorant liar

I did not say you are a liar. I said you uttered a lie (an untruth) but that does not necessarily make you a liar. Now JohnPaul87 is definitely a liar. But not you. Ignorant of Catholic doctrine? Yes sir you most certainly are.

! Whoo, hoo, I guess I should consider it an honor to labeled as such by a catholic

Now why would you consider it an honour to be labeled as such if you are not not one. I certainly would not whether the person making the accusation is an atheist, protestant, muslim, jew or what not. You’re strange.

But, because I am accepted by God, I can be rejected by man(or woman, as the case may be). I had to chuckle, when I read the dialogue between yourself and guanophore Then I prayed about it(but not to or through Mary), before I put my response together! It’s at times like this, that I thank Jesus for His peace, because the tendency and temptation to be in the flesh, and hurl insults, is always a present danger.

I don’t insult anyone. I make statements of fact. There is no need for insult. That is why I chose my words carefully when I said you “mouthed a lie”.

I have read enough posts in this thread and others about truth, in fact some even asking if my pastor teaches the truth. Well, let’s see, if Jesus is the TRUTH, and our congregation is following, and seeking Him, then yes, our pastor is teaching the TRUTH!

Not necessarily. The evil spirit is always out to deceive. The only way you can be certain that your pastor is teaching truth is if he has the guarantee of the Holy Spirit that Christ promised the Apostles. But he does not. Because Christ gave that promise only to the Catholic Church.

Let me put this question to you. I don’t know what denomination you are but unless you are a true blue Lutheran or a true blue Anglican, chances are your church is an offshot of an offshoot of one of the mainline protestants churches.

So, if protestant Churches all preaching truth, then why did your denomination have to separte and so on and so forth down the line of unending fragmentation?

And if you the rift is due to doctrinal issues,i.e. interpretation of the Bible which one had the correct interpretation: your church or the one it separated from? Which of you is being guided by the Holy Spirit.

Free will, something given to us by God, is what leads people to a church, away from a church, or to no church at all!

Interesting that. Free will. Same free will that Adam and Eve exercised to go against God and land us in this sorry mess.

And, personally, I believe that if a mortal man tells anyone that they’re not saved, or thir salvation isn’t secure; that person is steeped in blasphemy, as God is the ONLY one who knows what’s in your heart,aside from you!

And you are so correct there. ONLY God know what is in anyone’s heart. So how can you know that your salvation or anyone else’s is secure?

It is precisely because we Catholics acknowledge that only God knows each one’s heart, that is why we never ever say that one is absolutely sure that he is saved. The race is not over yet. However, we have confident hope. We trust in the love and mercy of God. THAT is different from smug assurance of salvation.

And furthermore, no one,not even the pope, has the authority, although some have the audacity, to exclude(or call them separated from the Bride of Christ!

Unfortunately, you may rail against that but that is the truth. You are not in communion (from : com (with) + unus (one)), you are not one with the Body of Christ. But that is of your own chosing. And something that is easily remedied.

I may be separated from the catholic church, but I am totally connected to my God, through a personal relationship with Jesus!

And where in the Bible does it say that what is needed to belong to the Church that Christ founded on earth is a personal relationship with Him?

And the more I think about it, maybe I would like the catholic church to add something to their teachings, rather than drop something(like they really would). I’d like to see them out in the streets, spreading the good word, or in acity park, in a not-so nice neighborhood, praying with strangers, and passing out food boxes(Matthew 28:19-20,25:31-46)

Okay, here is that “I” word again, ignorance.

Here are some facts for you. The Catholic Church is at the forefront of charitiy work in this world. Perhaps you should visit the webiste of Caritas. Maybe you should visit the homes for the aged, halfway houses, etc, etc that the Church and her agencies run. Ask your local parish. They can point you in the right direction.

I did volunteer work at a home for the aged run by the Little Sisters of the Poor, and a house of welcome for alcoholics and down and out run by the Sister of Charity. St Vincent de Paul’s are a global charity organization that help the poor and marginalized.

As for street preaching, that is a good endeavour but not necessarily the most effective way to spread the Gospel. People are actually turned off by it.

The Catholic church has the missions. And that is why you are a Christian now. Without the Church you will not even know who Christ is. Everything you know about Christ through the Bible came from the Catholic Church.

So before you start telling us what to do, you should first find out what we actually do. And this, we have been doing for two thousand years.

 

[benedictus2]

It appears that, at least on the surface, that anyone who disagrees with the catholic position on any thing is called hateful, deluded,ignorant or a liar!

Nope. Those who simply disagree are not hateful and I do not ever remember calling anyone that. Ignorant most certainly especially when they say we believe this and that without ever trying to find out whether that is true and if true, why we do believe them.

Deluded? Yes, a few psoters certainly are in some of their opinions.

We all need to work on getting tose planks out of our eyes! Two questions for you, benedictus2:1) are you now, or have you ever been a nun?

Yes, I did give the religious life a shot. I tried twice both contemplative / monastic orders for a short time. But I have a stubborn streak in me which is not really conducive to monastic life as obedience is important. Plus I tended to sing at the most inoportune times - during the hours of silence.. But I would say that spiritually speaking, that was a wonderful time of growth.

Now question for you. Whatever made you think that I might have been one?

1. In post#554, when talking about my former fiance, who by the way, passed away tragically 3 years ago,either you are dyslexic, or I am; because, if you read it, one could believe that you are saying that when she left the catholic church, for a non denominational one, she traded up!

If I said she traded up then I need a knock in the head. There I’ve given myself one. And a big whack on the behind as well.

And because of her strong faith, I believe she is absent the body, and present with the Lord!

I do not doubt that. God loves us all so much.

 

[benedictus2]

If I could pick 1 thing, it would be the teaching that the RCC is perfect, but since I am no longer a Christian, it would have to change so much, it wouldn’t live to its actual name if I wanted that much to change.

Why are you no longer a Christian? You used to be Christian Knight. So what changed.

Your previous posts showed that you were a commited Christian.

The Catholic Church is perfect only in so much as Christ is perfect so His Body the Church must be perfect. But she is composed of sinful members. It is Christ that makes the Catholic Church Holy. Without Him it will not be holy. But one cannot sever the Head from his Body.

 

[benedictus2]

I think this is true. I think that our wills are not really “free” because they are enslaved to sin. Most people are led about by what they believe is “free will”, and are in fact, being led by the world, the flesh and the devil.

On the contrary, I think it is grace that leads us into Christ, and that our will is only “free” after it has been liberated by His blood.

Very well put. I have often wondered, in the account of The Fall, if instead of blame shifting Adam and Eve had simply said it’s my fault, I am sorry, I wonder how it would have all panned out?

But I think that was an impossiblity to them because having fallen, one of it’s consequences is precisely this, a refusal to acknowledge one’s fault, to see one’s sins. Which could only come about after Christ’s salvific death.

The question however remains, when you you say that we are only free after we have been liberated by His Blood, do you mean after Baptism or after Christ’s death and resurrection which then covers all of humanity and not those who have been baptized?

 

[benedictus2]

You are stumbling over the same error that caused the council to develop the doctrine of the Theotokos in the first place. There is a flaw in this reasoning. If one becomes sinful just by virtue of being in the flesh,and being born into the world, then Jesus is also tainted with sin. On the contrary, He took His flesh of her flesh, and could not use tainted flesh. that is why He chose to create her without the stain of original sin. Why is this so hard to believe? **No one seems to have a problem believing that God could create Adam and Eve without sin…yet cannot do so for His own mother? **

What a gem!!! Simply brilliant! :clapping:

 

[benedictus2]

**I have been reading an reflecting on this very question since my God has last post. I think my biggest problem with RCC is Authority.Not in the sense of the Pope( I once meet John Paul II and he was diffenetly a man of God!!), but the fact that certain Bible passages can not be found in the CCC. I understand that they have not been reveiled yet to RCC, **
Can you tell us what passages you are talking about? Are you talking about entire books or just ommited verses?

but that very thing bothers me. In the post I have read the Bible is not subject to individual interpretation.

 

[benedictus2]

Hey, bobzills: It’s easy, to disagree with purgatory; you just close your eyes, and say"There’s no place like home…There’s no place like home…! But seriously, if you are a non-catholic, you just say, “I choose not to believe in purgatory!” However, if you are a catholic, I think you are pretty much obligated to believe in that, among many other things

Is your mind open enough to discuss the subject of purgartory?

If so, can you let us know why there is no such thing or place or state of being?

What do you understand by the doctrine on purgatory?

 

[gcnuss]

**
That is what I never understood as a Lutheran; today we see thousands of divided and insular denominational/nondenominational non-Catholic churches, the world over, all teaching/shepherding their isolated congregations, with the Holy Bible as their only authority; sola scriptura AS OUR EXCLUSIVE AUTHORITY, via private interpretation has led to this chaos, confusion, disunity, dissension and division in the protestant world IMHO. Prior to the reformation, Jesus’ established church circa 33 AD was one and united, with the exception of the E.O.C., however they pretty much embrace everything the C.C. embraces.**

From a Lutheran perspective, sola scriptura does not mean that we rely on the Bible and nothing else. We certainly don’t give free reign to private interpretation. We have what I would describe as the Lutheran version of sacred tradition, the Lutheran Confessions. Among those confessions, the Augsburg Confession is primary. All Lutherans subscribe to it. If you don’t, you’re not a Lutheran.

And, of course, we don’t reject all the teachings of the pre-Reformation church. We accept the ecumenical creeds, we study the early church fathers, and we retain much in the way of liturgy.

All power