What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic

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Hey there, benedictus2, how are you; I hope that our Heavenly Father is keeping you in His loving grace!
Thank you. He does. He keeps all of us in His loving grace. The sad part is that a lot of people don’t know it. And that is what we all must pray for, that people will come to realize how utterly and unconditionally God loves us all.

I was in another thread and this protestant said to me that to see God as love is a distorted view. Go figure.
I guess I completely glossed over posts #924&925! Anyway, I have been part of a non-denominational congregation for some time now; easier that way In some ways, it is like being an independent politically.
The question is: Is that Christ’s will? Did Christ intend for us to be “independent politically"?
At this stage of my Christian walk(getting more blissful every day), I am growing in leaps and bounds, partly due to my serving God and my pastor’s teachings! In spite of what you believe,
Aaah, but you don’t really know what I believe about you do you?
See there, you are jumping t conclusions again. If you re-read my post to you, I said I have no doubt whatsoever that you love God and are growing in love of Him. Otherwise you would not be out there with your street ministry. That takes a lot of guts.
I truly believe that my pastor is an anointed man of God!
I am not too sure of that. It depends what you mean by anointed. By what authority was he annointed? Were the ones who annointed him annointed by someone who was in turn annointed by an apostle?
And as for street ministry, you are partly right about people being turned off by it! I can sense it when talking to some of them, that they are a bit jaded, for whatever reason. But trust me, we don’t use the “Way of the Master”, techniques! We just talk to them, ask if they need anything; food, clothing, prayer, etc.! Many times, those we are approaching, will initiate conversations about God or Jesus, and we will pray with them and if they are ready to make that decision, we can offer a sinner’s prayer for them to accept Christ, point them to a church in their area, and give them material about baptism, give them a Bible!
THAT IS WONDERFUL!!!
Hey, bottom line, is this; 42 years as a non-catholic, and life couldn’t be better! I am using the gifts that the Holy Spirit gave me, serving in obedience, and married to another amazing servant! By the way, blood pressure this morning, 117/67; yippee!
That is indeed wonderful. But as wonderful as it is now, greater joy and fulfilment awaits you when you come home to Christ’s Church.

And that is not just another arrogant statement from me. That is what converts such as Thomas Howard, Scott Hahn, Rabbi Zoli, etc have found.

The theme that runs through all their stories is that of having come home.

God did not establish One Church just so man can decide 1500 years later that they know better than God and will start one, two, up to 33,000 different ones.

Don’t take my word for it though. If you are interested in hearing these stories email me and I will send you MP3s.
 
The nonsense and completely unbiblical issues of purgatory, confessing your sins to a priest, and the no condemns/contraceptives usage.
PROVE that purgatory, confessing your sins to a priest, and the no condemns/contraceptives usage IS NONSENSE AND COMPLETELY BIBLICAL.

If all 3 is a bit too much to handle, settle on one. Purgatory perhaps.🙂
 
if we do not have any assurance that we are saved, why get saved in the first place:D
That’s sorta like saying “If I can’t know for certain that I’m going to get an “A” in this class, why bother taking the class at all?”

The answer: growth…wisdom…maturity…purification

Why’s it so important for you to know with absolute assurance ahead of time? Do you think you discredit Christ if you have anything less than this absolute assurance? Do you think He would be insulted that you don’t take your salvation for granted? Don’t you think He would be more approving of you if you recognized that you have a moral assurance…that so long as you endure in Him until your last breath, that you WILL be with Him forever?

I think OSAS’ers really think God is insulted if they don’t KNOW 100% that they’re saved at the moment of their profession. As if the very notion of believing we have to endure in the faith would make Him say, “What?? No!! I don’t want you to use your free will anymore! I’ve automated you now to do My Will. What are you doing trying to cooperate freely?? Get a grip and let me put your life on divine autopilot, for I really only intended you to use your free will to have that one-time profession of faith! Thanks for the ‘effort’, but No Thanks! I’ll take over from here on out. Sit back and enjoy the rest of the ride”

Silliness
 
just convert all your churches into museums … your art is the only good thing about it (well OK maybe some of the music is pretty cool, especially if you put a rock beat behind a Gregorian chant, sweet) 😃
You have no respect, no reverence and no style! You are also terribly ignorant which you demonstrate by your utterances.

🤷 You only generate offensive diatribe and there is no stimulation or fun to engage with someone like that. 🤷

Oh, and by the way, your “Religion” of “NOTHING” is very descriptive of what you represent! NOTHING🤷
 
That’s sorta like saying “If I can’t know for certain that I’m going to get an “A” in this class, why bother taking the class at all?”

The answer: growth…wisdom…maturity…purification

Why’s it so important for you to know with absolute assurance ahead of time? Do you think you discredit Christ if you have anything less than this absolute assurance? Do you think He would be insulted that you don’t take your salvation for granted? Don’t you think He would be more approving of you if you recognized that you have a moral assurance…that so long as you endure in Him until your last breath, that you WILL be with Him forever?

I think OSAS’ers really think God is insulted if they don’t KNOW 100% that they’re saved at the moment of their profession. As if the very notion of believing we have to endure in the faith would make Him say, “What?? No!! I don’t want you to use your free will anymore! I’ve automated you now to do My Will. What are you doing trying to cooperate freely?? Get a grip and let me put your life on divine autopilot, for I really only intended you to use your free will to have that one-time profession of faith! Thanks for the ‘effort’, but No Thanks! I’ll take over from here on out. Sit back and enjoy the rest of the ride”

Silliness
👍
 
just convert all your churches into museums … your art is the only good thing about it (well OK maybe some of the music is pretty cool, especially if you put a rock beat behind a Gregorian chant, sweet) 😃
maybe it’s true … atheists do not constructively contribute … at least this one doesn’t.

Let me ask … do you feel that you have rights in the U.S.? The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I propose that you, as an atheist, do not have these rights. Maybe we should round all of you up and put you in jail … no trial. I mean, why not. The rights we have in this country are based on what we are endowed with by our creator… at least according to the Declaration of Independence. If you reject a creator, then you reject the basic civil liberties recognized by this country’s establishment.

Two short questions.
Was Hitler wrong to kill more than 6 million Jews?
Why? (I need a logical, objective moral reason here)

michel
 
:thumbsup:Cinette: A bit of a delay, in answering your questions, but here goes:1) Faith of course is the substance of thingshoped for and the evidence of things not seen:thumbsup: Faith is also. my sister praying for twenty-one years, for her husband to come to Christ(and he eventually did). Faith is my co- worker praying for eleven years, to become pregnant; on the day they sugned the adoption papers, she found out she was pregnant:D When my former fiance died, people around me said,“You have big faith.” I said,"I don’t need big faith, because I serve a BIG God! It’s not about the size of my faith, it’s who my faith is in!2) If Jesus says it, it is important, and I believe it! He doesn’t mince words. So, yes, I believe everything that Jesus says! 3) I believe that eventually, God will reveal all answers to us; but in His own time and when He feels the need for us to know
 
**1beleevr, you said:
**

Throughout all these posts, there have been some good suggestions, and some ridiculous ones, but in all actuality, you guys shouldn’t change anything; well maybe introduce some contemporary Christian music int the worship service! And one of the reasons, I am growing closer to the Lord,in “leaps and bounds”, is because of an increase in serving others, in His name! When God sees that you can handle the small things, He will gradually give you bigger projects!and of course my recent spate of increase in service, came from a personal tragedy, when my former fiance tragically and quickly passed away! I never stopped going to church, although a part of me wanted to run and hide. But God, in His infinite wisdom, led me out of the valley, into the light of service(Mark 10:45) I can look back to that day three years ago, and now see her passing as a blessing, for healing, and growth, and a greater understanding of how God restores, and then grows a person!

**Good for you my friend!!! --that shows character, intestinal fortitude, and immense faith in God! 👍 I wish I could say the same, however I cannot. I stopped going to church altogether, and ran like a coward and hid; luckily though, the experience brought me back to the C.C., which I doubt I would have done prior to that tragedy.

**
It is not about ability, but availability! And no, I am not a catholic, and never will be, but I respect all Christians, regardless of affiliation!

**Right back at ya!!! Respect is the key…
**

And as far as my salvation, and losing it or not(I believe in OSAS), if we do not have any assurance that we are saved, why get saved in the first place

**Well, let us not forget what Paul said while he still walked the earth; he never really considered himself saved, until he finished the race; just the hope of being saved, and hope is everything, when one walks in faith:

**
*I want to know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I want to suffer with him, sharing in his death, so that one way or another I will experience the resurrection from the dead! I don’t mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me. No, dear brothers and sisters, I have not achieved it, but I focus on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, I press on to reach the end of the race and receive the heavenly prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us.
*

**All in all, this has been a really good thread! However, I have noticed that catholics have been diligently answering questions thrown at them, with very little reciprication. :confused:

God bless everyone on this thread…👍**
 
JL: I guess everyone is raving over your post; it was okay, not spectacular! I guess maybe I should :confused:that schooling I got. I know that Jesus was not literally any of those things, so why should I believe that He was literally in the bread and wine:confused: Jesus took the bread(Matthew 26:26) and said, “This is my body, take eat, do this in rememberance of Me”. Is bread flesh, is wine blood?
 
I know that Jesus was not literally any of those things, so why should I believe that He was literally in the bread and wine:confused: Jesus took the bread(Matthew 26:26) and said, “This is my body, take eat, do this in rememberance of Me”. Is bread flesh, is wine blood?
This really is the crux of the question, isn’t it.
What is different about the last supper from every other time and spoke metaphorically.
In every other case, even the language is different. “I am this” or “I am that” … at the last supper he says “This is me”.

Let’s take a look at what he says at the last supper again.

Luke 22:19-20
[19] And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
[20] And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Matt 26:28
[28] for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14:24
[24] And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

Scripture here is equating the bread/wine in Jesus’ hands with what is given up or poured out for us.
We believe that the body on the cross was Jesus’ actual body, not a symbol of His body.
We believe that the blood shed was Jesus’ actual blood, not a symbol of his blood.

Jesus is telling us at the last supper that these elements in his hands are the same that will be on the cross. His actual body and blood.

We can see in scripture, the following…

1 Cor 11:26-27
[26] For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
[27] Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

It was Jesus’ actual death that we proclaim, not his symbolic death.
We would be guilty of profaning Jesus’ actual body and blood, not his symbolic body and blood.

Well … after reading John 6 and the focus on the last supper where Jesus says “This is”, these verses cited above seal the deal for me. I believe in the real presence. Yes this is a hard teaching, just as the disciples that left Jesus in John 6 said, but I believe it.

michel
 
Hi, Brian231,

Truly a great way to start off a conversation - begin with an insult “…nonsense…” and conclude with an error! :rolleyes:
The nonsense and completely unbiblical issues of purgatory, confessing your sins to a priest, and the no condemns/contraceptives usage.
Maybe you need to refocus your energies (away from hatered and toward learning) if you are really interested in learning about the Catholic Church.

So let’s begin by correcting the error and then move on to your three stated problem areas.

The CC is solely responsible for the complication, arrangement and declaration that certain written works were inspired by God. These books were collectively called The Bible. This took place befor 425 A.D. (“Pope Damasus promulgated the Catholic canons at the Synod of Rome in A.D. 382, and later, at the regional councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397, 419), the Church again defined the same list of books as inspired.”)

The take-home message is that on that First Pentecost Sunday - about 33 A.D. - the recognized birthday of the Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church because there were no Protestants around for another 1200 years!) the Holy Spirit did not deliver a book when He descended on the Disciples and Tougues of Fire appeared! Another way to count time is that the CC is about 300 years older then The Bible - so, now you know which came first! 🙂

Jesus Christ really did build HIS CHURCH on Peter (Matt 16:18 - but, you should read this entire Chapter so as to get the full context rather then an isolated verse). And, if you sincerely want scriptural references, check these out: Luke 22:33, John 21:15-17, and Galatians 1:18 - again, take the time and read the entire Chapter for each of these. You really do not want to cheat yourself out of the answers to the questions you have.

Christ promised the Holy Spirit would teach and protect HIS CHURCH (John 14:26 - again, read the entire Chapter to get the context) from evil. Jesus Christ’s CHURCH (the CC) can not teach error. If it could teach error (e.g., there is no purgatory) then it would demonstrate to the world that it is a fraud and that the Holy Spirit does not have the power to prevent an error from being taught. Now… isn’t that interesting. The same teaching about purgatory since the Apostles and Early Church Fathers - right up to today.

If you are sincere about learning the answers to your three areas of concern, you will need to do some reading. Here are some links. Take the time, pray to the Holy Spirit for the Gift of Understanding, read the material without hatred or prejudice and just think about what you have read. It will be a fruitful experience for all of us.

1.) On Purgatory: newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

2.) On Confession: newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

3.) Here is a brief response on: ** "Why is Natural Family Planning accepted by the Church while contraception is condemned? They both do the same thing–prevent pregnancy.

Because you don’t judge the morality of actions by their effects or consequences. You judge their morality by what they essentially are. Using contraceptives such as condoms or diaphragms may accomplish the same end result as NFP, but the ways they go about it are very different.

Humanae Vitae defines contraception as “every action which, in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” (14). Such an action actively eliminates or witholds the procreative good of the marital act. This is sinful because “every marriage act must remain open to the transmission of life” (11). Since one of the two ends of sexual intercourse is procreation (the other being unity of husband and wife, 12), engaging in sex while deliberately frustrating the procreative act is, as Pope John Paul II has repeatedly called it, “a lie in the language of the body.”

If practicing contraception is to lie in the language of the body, to practice NFP is to take the Fifth. Natural Family Planning involves restricting sexual relations to infertile periods in the woman’s cycle. Although intercourse during these times is less likely to produce a conception, a couple always remains open to the possibility, having taken no action to render it impossible; therein lies the difference (see Humanae Vitae 16). During fertile periods abstinence is practiced, a sacrifice which shows respect for God’s gift of sex and its proper ends. Conversely, practicing contraception during these times displays a lack of respect for this gift and a focus instead on selfish pleasure.

One further difference needs to be pointed out. Contraception is often a practice of convenience, while NFP, to be licit, must be a practice of necessity, requiring “serious motives to space out births, which derive from the physical or psychological conditions of husband and wife, or from external conditions” (16). Thus it is not, as some have accused, “contraception Catholic style.” **

Hopefully, this response has given you the information you need. Pray to the Holy Spirit for the Gift of Wisdom as to how you use this information.

God bless
 
Hey 1beleevr, what is your assessment of this explination?

The Difficulties of a “Figurative” Interpretation

The difficulty of accepting a “figurative” interpretation of Jesus’ words REALLY DOES confirm the teaching OF THE E.O.C. and the C.C., the only 2 churches that possess a continuity GOING all the way back to the apostles; is that not significant? When you proffer that, since Jesus also said “I am the door” and “I am the vine” etc. then John 6:51 could be taken metaphorically, the problem is that although Jesus is LIKE a door and LIKE a vine, etc. in no way is BREAD like His FLESH (v. 51 "…the BREAD which I shall give…is My FLESH…) By its nature** “bread” cannot symbolize the BODY of Christ** and the words of institution “This is My body…This is My blood” therefore have no logical parallel to Christ being the door, vine, light, rock, etc. Is that a fair and logical assessment?

To further confirm the teaching of both the Eastern and Catholic churches, the words “EAT MY FLESH” and “DRINK MY BLOOD” used metaphorically or symbolically by the Jews means to slander, revile, hate, persecute, murder, or destroy a person. The proof is found from the Old Testament examples of the phrases (see Deut 28:53; 32:42; 2 Sam 23:17; Psalm 27:2; Isaiah 9:20; 49:26; Ezek 5:10; Bar 2:3; Micah 3:3; also Rev 17:6,16). So taken as a Jewish metaphor or symbol, Jesus is apparently commanding his disciples to slander, revile, murder or destroy Him for eternal life – which of course makes no sense of the passage, does it?

Hope the moderator extends the thread! Hope to hear from you; have you started your vacation yet? I’ve actually extended mine to Monday…
 
:thumbsup:Cinette: A bit of a delay, in answering your questions, but here goes:1) Faith of course is the substance of thingshoped for and the evidence of things not seen:thumbsup: Faith is also. my sister praying for twenty-one years, for her husband to come to Christ(and he eventually did). Faith is my co- worker praying for eleven years, to become pregnant; on the day they sugned the adoption papers, she found out she was pregnant:D When my former fiance died, people around me said,“You have big faith.” I said,"I don’t need big faith, because I serve a BIG God! It’s not about the size of my faith, it’s who my faith is in!2) If Jesus says it, it is important, and I believe it! He doesn’t mince words. So, yes, I believe everything that Jesus says! 3) I believe that eventually, God will reveal all answers to us; but in His own time and when He feels the need for us to know
Then why don’t you take him seriously in John 6 when he said “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of God and drink his blood you have no life in you” He repeated himself seven times and you think that it is just spiritual and symbolic!!! Maaannnnn!

beleevr - I was thinking about you during Mass this morning. After consecration of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus we say “Dying you destroyed our death, rising you restored our life, Lord Jesus come in glory”.

If Jesus could feed thousands with a few loaves and a couple of fish how can you not believe that he can feed us with his body and blood until the end of time?

beleevr - I am not saying that I understand Jesus when he said “eat my flesh, drink my blood” but I believe because he said it and because I love and trust Him." The bread still looks like bread and the wine still looks like wine but when it is concecrated by an ordained priest (by a bishop of apostolic succession) then it is transformed into Jesus’ body and blood.

“Faith is believing without doubting whatever God has revealed.”

I don’t need to understand. In fact I don’t understand all the miracles around me which I witness each day.

I believe through Faith and not through proof.

I think you are a really terrific guy beleevr and your ministry is just wonderful. You have courage and Jesus loves you very much, I have no doubt about that. He understands you better than I do of course.

:):love::love:
 
JL: I guess everyone is raving over your post; it was okay, not spectacular! I guess maybe I should :confused:that schooling I got. I know that Jesus was not literally any of those things, so why should I believe that He was literally in the bread and wine:confused: Jesus took the bread(Matthew 26:26) and said, “This is my body, take eat, do this in rememberance of Me”. Is bread flesh, is wine blood?
JL: Jn6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. Did Jesus change water into literal wine or was it just symbolic?
 
Throughout all these posts, there have been some good suggestions, and some ridiculous ones, but in all actuality, you guys shouldn’t change anything; well maybe introduce some contemporary Christian music int the worship service! And one of the reasons, I am growing closer to the Lord,in “leaps and bounds”, is because of an increase in serving others, in His name! When God sees that you can handle the small things, He will gradually give you bigger projects!and of course my recent spate of increase in service, came from a personal tragedy, when my former fiance tragically and quickly passed away! I never stopped going to church, although a part of me wanted to run and hide. But God, in His infinite wisdom, led me out of the valley, into the light of service(Mark 10:45) I can look back to that day three years ago, and now see her passing as a blessing, for healing, and growth, and a greater understanding of how God restores, and then grows a person! It is not about ability, but availability! And no, I am not a catholic, and never will be, but I respect all Christians, regardless of affiliation! And as far as my salvation, and losing it or not(I believe in OSAS), if we do not have any assurance that we are saved, why get saved in the first place:D
JL: Your love of God shines thru very brightly beleevr.
 
But protestant denominations have allowed and condone divorce.
Good point. The criticism against Protestants should be that they allow divorce and remarriage.
And once the divorce is in, the tribunal is more or less programmed to give the annulment. You can see that the Catholic Church has been giving out annulments very easily in recent years by looking at the statistics:
Annulments given out by the Catholic Church in the USA:
1930: 9
1989: 61, 416.
Once a marriage annulment is granted, the couple is free to remarry in the Catholic Church. There really is not too much difference between one Church recognising divorces, and the other giving out easy to get marriage annulments. In either case, the couple is free to break away from the family unit and start over again with a new partner in a new marriage. Here’s how Joseph Kennedy explains the Catholic marriage annulment process to his non-Catholic wife: “Of course I think we had a true marriage. But that doesn’t matter now. I don’t believe this stuff. Nobody actually believes it. It’s just Catholic gobbledygook.”
Actually, I think the Kennedy case is a good example of the Catholic Church getting it right.
 
These are 2 questions I could not answer as a former Lutheran: If all the powers of hell can not conquer Jesus’ established church, circa 33 AD, which, as per sacred scripture was/is guided by the Holy Spirit in perpetuity, WHY WOULD I WANT TO BELONG TO ANY OTHER CHURCH? If all the powers of hell at some point in history did in fact conquer Jesus established Church to which He is suppose to be the Head and Savior, as per sacred scripture, why in the world would I continue to be a Christian?

Can anyone else answer these questions??? :confused::confused::confused:
 
just convert all your churches into museums … your art is the only good thing about it (well OK maybe some of the music is pretty cool, especially if you put a rock beat behind a Gregorian chant, sweet) 😃
Wisdom comes from God which explains the utter lack of this from your post.

Funny how youve vindicated Christianity by opening your mouth and demonstrating your apalling ignorance.😃
 
Throughout all these posts, there have been some good suggestions, and some ridiculous ones, but in all actuality, you guys shouldn’t change anything; well maybe introduce some contemporary Christian music int the worship service!
It depends on contemporary. A friend of mine invited me to non-dem service and this is purely my OPINION, but the music was very shallow and even to the point of inanity. Although there were some that almost hit the mark.

The Church has some music like this for grade school kids indeed but when you come to worship, it has to have much more meat in it.
And one of the reasons, I am growing closer to the Lord,in “leaps and bounds”, is because of an increase in serving others, in His name! When God sees that you can handle the small things, He will gradually give you bigger projects!and of course my recent spate of increase in service, came from a personal tragedy, when my former fiance tragically and quickly passed away! I never stopped going to church, although a part of me wanted to run and hide. But God, in His infinite wisdom, led me out of the valley, into the light of service(Mark 10:45) I can look back to that day three years ago, and now see her passing as a blessing, for healing, and growth, and a greater understanding of how God restores, and then grows a person!
You have summed up Catholic faith in that short testimony. I am actually quite misty eyed reading that. God is truly and tenderly drawing you closer to Himself.
It is not about ability, but availability! And no, I am not a catholic, and never will be,
I won’t be too sure of that. God has brought you here to this forum for a reason. And I think one them is so that you will come to learn more about His Church. And as the saying goes to know Her is to love Her.🙂
but I respect all Christians, regardless of affiliation!
I know you do. You may know probably zilch about our faith but I have not seen any vitriol in your posts. Unlike some.
And as far as my salvation, and losing it or not(I believe in OSAS), if we do not have any assurance that we are saved, why get saved in the first place:D
Maybe because you do not know what salvation is all about?

Questions for you:
What are we saved from?
What are we saved for?
How are we saved?
Why is it necessary for God to become human and die for us to be saved?
How does his becoming human and dying from the cross save us from whatever it is we needed to be saved from?
What is the process of salvation?
How does grace come into it?
How does free will come into it?
 
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