What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic

[gcnuss]

]These are 2 questions I could not answer as a former Lutheran

Maybe, if you were currently a Lutheran, you could answer them.

If all the powers of hell can not conquer Jesus’ established church, circa 33 AD, which, as per sacred scripture was/is guided by the Holy Spirit in perpetuity, WHY WOULD I WANT TO BELONG TO ANY OTHER CHURCH?

Why, indeed? But then, as a Lutheran, I am as much a member of the church established by Christ as any other Christian. The powers of hell will not conquer any of us because we are members of Christ’s church. That doesn’t mean that we won’t have some mighty battles with the powers of hell, but victory in the end will be to those who follow Christ. And, that victory will be ratified when our Lord comes again.

If all the powers of hell at some point in history did in fact conquer Jesus established Church to which He is suppose to be the Head and Savior, as per sacred scripture, why in the world would I continue to be a Christian?

If you truly believe Jesus’ promise, you must believe that the powers of hell will never conquer the church. It’s not even a theoretical possibility. Again, the promise of final victory does not mean that there will not be ferocious struggles against those powers.

 

[benedictus2]

Why, indeed? But then, as a Lutheran, I am as much a member of the church established by Christ as any other Christian.

But Christ established only ONE Church and that IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Christ did not establish the Lutheran, Anglican, Pentecostal etc. History very readily testifies as to the men who established these churches.

The only reason to join/remain in these churches would be if one posits that the gates of hell has prevailed against the historical Church of Christ. Which means that Christ is not able to keep his promise.

But even then the proposition becomes tenous because who determines when the gates of hell prevailed? They could already be branches of the this church over whom the gates of hell has prevailed which then totally demolishes the claim to being a Christian church.

Some claim they are Catholics with a small “c” but as Fr Neuhaus has discovered, everything authentically and truly Catholic gravitates towards the Roman Catholic Church.

Is the 33,000 fragmented denominations what Christ had envisioned for His Church?

 

[benedictus2]

If you truly believe Jesus’ promise, you must believe that the powers of hell will never conquer the church. It’s not even a theoretical possibility. Again, the promise of final victory does not mean that there will not be ferocious struggles against those powers.

So therefore the only Church that can truly claim to be Christ’s Church is the Catholic Church. For if the gates of hell has not prevailed, she is then truly Christ’s Church, in which case there is NO NEED FOR ANY OTHER.

 

[SteveGC]

These are 2 questions I could not answer as a former Lutheran: If all the powers of hell can not conquer Jesus’ established church, circa 33 AD, which, as per sacred scripture was/is guided by the Holy Spirit in perpetuity, WHY WOULD I WANT TO BELONG TO ANY OTHER CHURCH? If all the powers of hell at some point in history did in fact conquer Jesus established Church to which He is suppose to be the Head and Savior, as per sacred scripture, why in the world would I continue to be a Christian?

Can anyone else answer these questions???

Hi Joe. I think you have to remember that non-Catholics hold to a different definition of “church” than Catholics do. So, as a Catholic, I understand your questions. Non-catholics, however, would like to shelve these 2 questions in favor of the issue of what “church” means in the first place.

 

[SteveGC]

Is bread flesh, is wine blood?

**1 Corinthians 10:16

Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?**

Seems to me like they are flesh and blood.

 

[joe370]

Original questions: These are 2 questions I could not answer as a former Lutheran: If all the powers of hell can not conquer Jesus’ established church, built circa 33 AD, which, as per sacred scripture was/is guided by the Holy Spirit in perpetuity, WHY WOULD I WANT TO BELONG TO ANY OTHER CHURCH? If all the powers of hell at some point in history did in fact conquer Jesus established Church to which He is suppose to be the Head and Savior, as per sacred scripture, why in the world would I continue to be a Christian?

**Posted by joe370 **

Maybe, if you were currently a Lutheran, you could answer them.

**OK…let me put my Lutheran myopic glasses back on! LOL…The Lutheran church was built by a man named Martin Luther in the 16th century, as all protestant churches were, or stemmed from said reformation; the C.C. was built by Jesus in the 1st century, as per all protestant scholars! If all the powers of hell can not conquer Jesus’ established church, built circa 33 AD, which went by the name catholic, with good reason, by the 1st century, and I can provide proof if necessary, then why would I not be a member of that church, never to impugn the works of those churches established 1500 years after Pentecost? Keeping in mind that I believe that God can and will save all churches, I just feel that the fullness of faith is found in the C.C. The C.C. is a mirror image of the early church, which I have scrutinized quite intensely! Which church in the world today existed when Jesus spoke the words of Matthew 16:18 and Matthew 18:17?

Did Martin Luther remain a part of the one church built by Jesus circa 33 AD, when certain specious men of disrepute were doing things that they shouldn’t have been doing, which, as per the bible, were clearly predicted by Jesus, or did he attempt to separate Jesus’ Head from His Body due to some wolves dressed in sheep’s clothing through every century? If the Lutheran church and the Catholic church are one, why am I not allowed to go to my former Lutheran church with my new belief system? After all, if we are supposedly one and united, as you say; why is this a big deal! **

If all the powers of hell can not conquer Jesus’ established church, circa 33 AD, which, as per sacred scripture was/is guided by the Holy Spirit in perpetuity, WHY WOULD I WANT TO BELONG TO ANY OTHER CHURCH?

Why, indeed? But then, as a Lutheran, I am as much a member of the church established by Christ as any other Christian.

**So, it doesn’t matter if say, I start a church tomorrow, call it Joe’s kingdom of ministries, drop baptism, 5 of the 10 commandments and sola scriptura via the bible as my sole authority; I will be, as much as any 16th century church or the 1st century church, a member of the church established by Christ circa 33 AD --right or wrong???
**

The powers of hell will not conquer any of us because we are members of Christ’s church. That doesn’t mean that we won’t have some mighty battles with the powers of hell, but victory in the end will be to those who follow Christ. And, that victory will be ratified when our Lord comes again.

**I agree, Jesus’ established church had some mighty battles with the evil one and his wolves in sheep’s clothing, in Jesus’ One church over the centuries, but Jesus still commanded that we remain one and united, regardless of the chaff mixed in with the wheat, because in the end, victory will be for those who belong to Jesus’ established church to which He is the head and SAVIOR!!! And, that victory will be ratified when our Lord comes again. Paul tells us that Jesus’ church is the most important place on earth: “but if i tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of god, which is the church of the living god, the pillar and ground of the truth.” Are all of these isolated churches the pillar and foundation of truth, and the house of the living God? If so, why are they not united? Does the spirit of truth sent to Jesus’ established church on Pentecost teach one truth vis-a-vis any one doctrine or a multiplicity of truths to each respective church? **

continued…

 

[joe370]

**Do you think Jesus is happy or sad with all the division and disunity within His Mystical Body? John 17…Why, if we are all members of Christ’s one church, is His church so utterly fractured and divided, outside the the C.C.? If Satan is the author of confusion, are we not playing right into his hands when we separate our assemblies? If all of the hundreds of assemblies in the world today are in fact members of Jesus’ one church, then why are we not one and united, vis-a-vis any one doctrine, just as Jesus’ N.T. church was…just as His bride was for 1500 years? How is it that we are all members of the same undivided church, yet, in the protestant milieu, the following commands from the Holy Bible are utterly ignored:

Jesus’ church was to be one: John 10:16; ** there shall be one fold
and one shepherd Eph 4:36; ** one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one
God and Father Rom 16:17; ** avoid those who create dissensions 1
Cor 1:10; ** I urge that there be no divisions among you Phil 2:2; ** be
of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing Rom 15:5; ** God
grant you to think in harmony with one another Jn 17:1723; ** I pray
that they may be one, as we are one Jn 17: 23; ** that they may be
brought to perfection as one 1 Cor 12:13; ** in one spirit we were
baptized into one body Rom 12:5; ** we, though many, are one body in
Christ Eph 4:4; ** one body, one Spirit, called to one hope Col 3:15; **
the peace into which you were called in one body.**

If all the powers of hell at some point in history did in fact conquer Jesus established Church to which He is suppose to be the Head and Savior, as per sacred scripture, why in the world would I continue to be a Christian?

If you truly believe Jesus’ promise, you must believe that the powers of hell will never conquer the church.

**All churches, even my hypothetical church of the future??? Remember, if protestant churches can remove 5 sacraments, there is no reason why I can’t remove the remaining 2, and still consider my new church part of Jesus’ Body to which he is the head and savior! **

It’s not even a theoretical possibility. Again, the promise of final victory does not mean that there will not be ferocious struggles against those powers.

**Exactly…so why did Martin Luther not understand that the anti-Christ is a ferocious beast constantly trying to sift the members of Jesus’ church like wheat, and stick to his guns, and stay with the one church built by Christ? After all, even Peter was almost a victim as Judas was:

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.” And he said, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.” He said, “I tell you, Peter, the cock will not crow this day, until you three times deny that you know me.”**

---

God bless, Joe370…

P.s…what was your response to my response vis-a-vis my post on Mary as a model of faith and obedience?

 

[joe370]

**1 Corinthians 10:16

Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?**

Seems to me like they are flesh and blood.

Is Jesus a liar? Is Paul a liar? We are not the ones saying these things; your bible is saying it! I hope you will answer Steve’s question: Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? The only argument that I have heard that had even the slightest hint of plausibility was: Jesus knew those with harden hearts and that’s why He let them walk away. However, it still doesn’t explain why they believed Jesus was speaking literally…why the apostles believed… and why protestants don’t believe! How does bread symbolically represent Jesus’ flesh, like for example the door or the rock symbolically representing Jesus? The door and the rock are obvious symbols of Jesus; bread IS NOT!!! When Jesus says, I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. —we understand the symbolism; when Jesus says, I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. —I don’t see the symbolism? Do you interpret the manna eaten by the their Fathers as metaphorical, or do you believe that they ate the manna, literally? Jesus actually juxtaposes the eating of the manna which was food for the carnal body, and ultimately led to death, with the eating of the living bread which is food for the sou, that will lead to eternal life; in both cases, eating is clearly literal --agreed!

Please help me out here…

 

[benedictus2]

**Do you think Jesus is happy or sad with all the division and disunity within His Mystical Body? John 17…Why, if we are all members of Christ’s one church, is His church so utterly fractured and divided, outside the the C.C.? If Satan is the author of confusion, are we not playing right into his hands when we separate our assemblies? If all of the hundreds of assemblies in the world today are in fact members of Jesus’ one church, then why are we not one and united, vis-a-vis any one doctrine, just as Jesus’ N.T. church was…just as His bride was for 1500 years? How is it that we are all members of the same undivided church, yet, in the protestant milieu, the following commands from the Holy Bible are utterly ignored: **

**Jesus’ church was to be one: John 10:16; ** there shall be one fold **
**and one shepherd Eph 4:36; ** one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one **
**God and Father Rom 16:17; ** avoid those who create dissensions 1 **
**Cor 1:10; ** I urge that there be no divisions among you Phil 2:2; ** be **
**of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing Rom 15:5; ** God **
**grant you to think in harmony with one another Jn 17:1723; ** I pray **
**that they may be one, as we are one Jn 17: 23; ** that they may be **
**brought to perfection as one 1 Cor 12:13; ** in one spirit we were **
**baptized into one body Rom 12:5; ** we, though many, are one body in **
**Christ Eph 4:4; ** one body, one Spirit, called to one hope Col 3:15; ** **
the peace into which you were called in one body.

If all the powers of hell at some point in history did in fact conquer Jesus established Church to which He is suppose to be the Head and Savior, as per sacred scripture, why in the world would I continue to be a Christian?

If you truly believe Jesus’ promise, you must believe that the powers of hell will never conquer the church.

**All churches, even my hypothetical church of the future??? Remember, if protestant churches can remove 5 sacraments, there is no reason why I can’t remove the remaining 2, and still consider my new church part of Jesus’ Body to which he is the head and savior! **

It’s not even a theoretical possibility. Again, the promise of final victory does not mean that there will not be ferocious struggles against those powers.

Exactly…so why did Martin Luther not understand that the anti-Christ is a ferocious beast constantly trying to sift the members of Jesus’ church like wheat, and stick to his guns, and stay with the one church built by Christ? After all, even Peter was almost a victim as Judas was:

"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren." And he said, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.” He said, "I tell you, Peter, the cock will not crow this day, until you three times deny that you know me."

---

God bless, Joe370…

P.s…what was your response to my response vis-a-vis my post on Mary as a model of faith and obedience?

WOW! Excellent post as usual!!!:clapping:

 

[Cinette]

But Christ established only ONE Church and that IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Christ did not establish the Lutheran, Anglican, Pentecostal etc. History very readily testifies as to the men who established these churches.

The only reason to join/remain in these churches would be if one posits that the gates of hell has prevailed against the historical Church of Christ. Which means that Christ is not able to keep his promise.

But even then the proposition becomes tenous because who determines when the gates of hell prevailed? They could already be branches of the this church over whom the gates of hell has prevailed which then totally demolishes the claim to being a Christian church.

Some claim they are Catholics with a small “c” but as Fr Neuhaus has discovered, everything authentically and truly Catholic gravitates towards the Roman Catholic Church.

Is the 33,000 fragmented denominations what Christ had envisioned for His Church?

I have heard people say “My family has been Anglican for several generations - so I will keep the home fires burning and remain Anglican.” That is quite a statement to make. I know that the Anglican church has much beauty. I remember when I was visiting England in 1976 (I was stil outside the Church at that stage) I would think to myself when I visited Anglican churches that they had once belonged to the Catholic Church…

As for Lutherans I have known few of them - the one couple I mentioned whereby the husband cheated on his wife (they had no children as it was decided it would spoil their fun and he had a vasectomy - which invalidated their marriage don’t you think?) - they were fundamentalists and hated the CC. I then heard a black Lutheran minister speak at a workshop and I was most impressed with him - he was more like us.

Gosh why can’t we be one as Jesus wished!

I believe people remain in their denominations mainly because of comfort and friends. Then there is also the prejudice against the CC.

When we were children we were often very selfish, not sharing our sweets and biscuits and keeping things for ourselves. When we began to open to the Lord and realise the treasure of our Faith we want to share this with everyone. We would go out of our way and even give up our comfort to share with others the splendour of our Catholic Faith.

I again invite Protestants to attend the Easter celebrations - Good Friday stations of the Cross, Adoration of the Cross, the Saturday Easter Vigil (which is a piece of heaven) and then Easter Sunday with the Alleluiah! the glorious happiness in our celebrations. Come and enjoy these marvellous events with us. One week to go… You will be elevated! Then come back on this forum and tell us of your experience. By the way when you walk into a Catholic Church noone will know you are Protestant. We all have heads, bodies, eyes, arms - we look alike! (LOL!

Love, love changes everything!

 

[benedictus2]

I believe people remain in their denominations mainly because of comfort and friends. Then there is also the prejudice against the CC.

Which brings us back to WILL. Which will is operative in this case, CHRIST’S OR OURS?

I was just listening to an interview with Kimberly Hahn and it was quite an admission for her to say that she stopped praying the prayer that her father taught her, i.e. TO FOLLOW WHERE EVER JESUS LED HER because she was afraid it might mean the Catholic Church. She even had to pray to be able to pray that prayer.
And when she was able to pray that prayer, freedoom and joy came over her and she finally started to study.

And studying finally led her home.

Once one has realized the truth that the Church of Pentecost subsists in the Catholic Church of today, why ever would onenot follow Christ’s will and be a member of His Church? Christ did not WILL into being all the other churches.

But I can understand that this is a frightening thing. Most of the conversion stories I have read spoke of this fear. But in the end the Lord won them over and showed them that there is nothing to fear. Joy waits at Home.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Joe370,

Thank you for sharing these excellent insights. Your post was both a pleasure to read and an enrichment to my understanding of the Catholic Faith.

Original questions: These are 2 questions I could not answer as a former Lutheran: If all the powers of hell can not conquer Jesus’ established church, built circa 33 AD, which, as per sacred scripture was/is guided by the Holy Spirit in perpetuity, WHY WOULD I WANT TO BELONG TO ANY OTHER CHURCH? If all the powers of hell at some point in history did in fact conquer Jesus established Church to which He is suppose to be the Head and Savior, as per sacred scripture, why in the world would I continue to be a Christian?

God bless

 

[Cinette]

Hi, Joe370,

Thank you for sharing these excellent insights. Your post was both a pleasure to read and an enrichment to my understanding of the Catholic Faith.

God bless

I love Joe also - he is a great teacher.

and Benedictus and you Tom and Guanophore and all you others whose names I do not remember but you know who you are.

 

[gcnuss]

OK…let me put my Lutheran myopic glasses back on! LOL…The Lutheran church was built by a man named Martin Luther in the 16th century, as all protestant churches were, or stemmed from said reformation; the C.C. was built by Jesus in the 1st century, as per all protestant scholars!

The Lutheran church was NOT built by Luther. Had it sprung up ex nihilo through Luther’s efforts, I might agree with you. However, that is not the case. Had it been so, we most likely would would not believe in the Holy Trinity, the creeds, and much else that we hold as the true faith.

Which church in the world today existed when Jesus spoke the words of Matthew 16:18 and Matthew 18:17?

If you speak of the church as an ecclesiastical organization, none existed when Jesus spoke those words.

Did Martin Luther remain a part of the one church built by Jesus circa 33 AD…

Yes.

If the Lutheran church and the Catholic church are one, why am I not allowed to go to my former Lutheran church with my new belief system? After all, if we are supposedly one and united, as you say; why is this a big deal!

Why is it a big deal?? I would welcome you in the church I serve. It isn’t we Lutherans – at least not all of us – who shut the door.

So, it doesn’t matter if say, I start a church tomorrow, call it Joe’s kingdom of ministries, drop baptism, 5 of the 10 commandments and sola scriptura via the bible as my sole authority; I will be, as much as any 16th century church or the 1st century church, a member of the church established by Christ circa 33 AD --right or wrong???

That argument is a reductio ad absurdum. Are you saying that Lutherans have dropped baptism, eliminated any of the commandments, etc.? If you did what you suggested above, I would say that – just on the basis of your comment on baptism – you would cease to be part of the church.

I think, too, that your reference to sola scriptura shows an ignorance of good Lutheran teaching. That’s not to say that you haven’t heard Lutherans express a poor understanding of it as well. Sola scriptura simply means that scripture is the ultimate authority, the norm that norms all other norms. It is not a denial that any other authorities exist, only that they are subject to, and subordinate to, scripture. Otherwise, we Lutherans would contradict ourselves when we proclaim the Lutheran Confessions to be true explications of the Gospel.

Joe, thanks for your comments. I truly appreciate your zeal for our Lord and his church.

 

[SteveGC]

Sola scriptura simply means that scripture is the ultimate authority, the norm that norms all other norms. It is not a denial that any other authorities exist, only that they are subject to, and subordinate to, scripture. Otherwise, we Lutherans would contradict ourselves when we proclaim the Lutheran Confessions to be true explications of the Gospel.

Pastor Gary, can you expound on this idea here for me? Specifically the Lutheran Confessions and the other authority Lutherans acknowledge and subscribe to. Are these authorities authentically apostolic? Traceable in lineage in some manner?

Also, if these other authorities exist, how is it that all of them are ‘subject to’ Scripture, when a human authoritative interpretation of said Scripture is incipient to Scripture itself being capable of testing other doctrine? In other words (because what I just wrote there is confusing to me too ), how is Scripture by itself capable of being a litmus test for any other authority, when it first has to be correctly interpreted itself?

Thanks. Peace be with you.

 

[joe370]

Hello Pastor…

You said:

gcnuss;5033217The Lutheran church was NOT built by Luther. Had it sprung up ex nihilo through Luther’s efforts, I might agree with you. However, that is not the case. Had it been so, we most likely would would not believe in the Holy Trinity, the creeds, and much else that we hold as the true faith.

Do you believe that the Lutheran church and the C.C. are one and the same?? Would you agree that Protestantism is one of the major movements within Christianity, stemming from the 16th century? Was Martin Luther a German monk, theologian, university professor, priest, and church reformer whose ideas started the Protestant Reformation and changed the course of Western civilization?

If you speak of the church as an ecclesiastical organization, none existed when Jesus spoke those words.

Yes.

You are referring to Matthew 16 and 18? If so, then I agree with you!!! However, Jesus’ One Church, as an ecclesiastical organization, was eventually established; when did this occur?

Why is it a big deal?? I would welcome you in the church I serve. It isn’t we Lutherans – at least not all of us – who shut the door.

As a practicing catholic, you would welcome me into your church? Wow, that sure is refreshing, and I’m not surprised based on your other posts; you are a good man and no doubt a wonderful Pastor!!!

That argument is a reductio ad absurdum. Are you saying that Lutherans have dropped baptism, eliminated any of the commandments, etc.? If you did what you suggested above, I would say that – just on the basis of your comment on baptism – you would cease to be part of the church.

Absurd in what way? I never said Christians belonging to the Lutheran church dropped baptism; where did you get that idea from? The C.C. and the E.O.C. has 7 sacraments; the multifarious protestant churches have 2 sacraments; is that a correct assessment? If the protestant churches can drop the Eucharist, which was believed by everyone since Pentecost, as baptism was, then I should be able to drop baptism, and still believe that my new church is a part of Jesus’ Body; is that an equitable assessment?

I think, too, that your reference to sola scriptura shows an ignorance of good Lutheran teaching. That’s not to say that you haven’t heard Lutherans express a poor understanding of it as well.

Perhaps you are right!

Sola scriptura simply means that scripture is the ultimate authority, the norm that norms all other norms.

Scripture as the ultimate authority…the final benchmark for Christianity has divided Jesus’ One church; If it didn’t then why all the division, segregation and estrangement within the non-Catholic world? I simply cannot agree with your supposition, I’m afraid, but that’s cool; to each their own! Viewing scripture as the ultimate authority is the very reason why I came back to the C.C.; I was never really gone in spirit!

If that were the case, then why did Jesus confer authority/power onto His One church, AND NOT THE HOLY BIBLE? –which was infused with said authority/power on Pentecost by the Holy Spirit, in perpetuity to teach everything Jesus commanded? I’m not saying that the Holy Bible isn’t an infallible, supernatural, authoritative treasure trove; I’m saying that the Holy Bible is an infallible, supernatural, authoritative treasure trove, thanks to the C.C.! When people were arguing over which scrolls were apostolic and which scrolls were not, what did they do? They took this unresolvable issue to Jesus’ One church! The C.C. via the power of the Holy Spirit settled the matter once and for all in 393 AD; why should things be any different today? No C.C…no Holy Bible!

Jesus built a church, and, incontrovertibly, selected and charged certain individuals to be His witnesses in His stead, starting in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth, upon receiving “power” from the Holy Spirit, circa 33 AD, not circa 1500 AD… to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that Jesus commanded… to be authoritative minister of the good news, 300 years before the good news was codified/canonized; the U.S. isn’t even 300 years old; that is a very long time! He gave His church sinful, fallible delegates the authority to do the preceding and we can trust His established church to teach and properly interpret the Holy Bible because she codified/canonized the Holy Bible, and is being guided by God! If we cannot trust the bride to properly interpret the Bible then we cannot trust the Bible; is that a fair assessment?

Do you believe that the Constitution of the U.S. is the ultimate authority, the norm that norms all other norms? I do! However, the body of people at the various conventions/councils that codified the US Constitution, the national framework of government, is the benchmark, not the constitution. By itself, it’s just a collection of decrees which would surely be violated if left in the hands of just anyone, and the same applies to the Bible! People with authority breath life, order and structure into these documents; remove this authoritative body and chaos, anarchy and division would ensue, sadly, just as it has in the protestant world. Jesus’ established church is no different; that is why Jesus gave us a teaching Institution as per the bible, and not the Holy Bible. Once Jesus’ Bible was finally codified/canonized by the C.C., It became a written teaching tool, just as high school/college books are, just as long as there is a teacher to correctly impart the knowledge! However, unlike today, very few people owned this written teaching tool; they relied on Jesus’ One church for pastoral guidance and teaching, and this was the case for 1500 years, and still is in the C.C.; that is the very reason why she is still one and united, and has been for 2000 years! We take it to the church as per Matthew 18:17, not the Bible to resolve our issues vis-a-vis faith and morals!!!

It is not a denial that any other authorities exist, only that they are subject to, and subordinate to, scripture. Otherwise, we Lutherans would contradict ourselves when we proclaim the Lutheran Confessions to be true explications of the Gospel.

Continued…

 

[joe370]

Which church in the world today, did Jesus confer authority —on Pentecost? According to our Bibles, we are subject to, and subordinate to Jesus’ established church; Jesus said, take it to the church to resolve unresolvable issues; Jesus said His church cannot fail; Jesus said, the Holy Spirit is “teaching” and “guiding” His church in perpetuity; Jesus said that He is the Head and Savior of His church; Paul tells us that Jesus’ One church is the pillar and foundation of truth! The reason we can trust the bible as truth, is because we can trust its codifier, for she is the pillar and foundation of truth, thanks to the guidance of the H.S.!!!

Do you believe that the following is a derivative/product of the Bible?

The Lutheran confessions:

• The Ecumenical Creeds
• The Augsburg Confession
• The Defense of the Augsburg Confession
• The Smalcald Articles
• The Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope
• The Small Catechism
• The Large Catechism
• The Epitome of the Formula of Concord
• The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord

• Catalog of Testimonies
• About the translation
• Abbreviations / Citations

• German Book of Concord

Joe, thanks for your comments. I truly appreciate your zeal for our Lord and his church.

Thank you too… God bless my friend!

 

[gcnuss]

Hi Joe,

Wow!!! So much territory to cover.

I’ll try to address some of your comments and questions.

Do you believe that the Lutheran church and the C.C. are one and the same??

I believe that we are both included in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church and are earthly manifestations of that church – the church that exists outside of time and space.

Would you agree that Protestantism is one of the major movements within Christianity, stemming from the 16th century?

It would be disingenuous to argue with the first part of your question, that Protestantism is a major movement within Christianity. However, at least from a Lutheran perspective, I believe we have the same roots in the apostolic faith as the Catholic Church.

Was Martin Luther a German monk, theologian, university professor, priest, and church reformer whose ideas started the Protestant Reformation and changed the course of Western civilization?

That’s generally correct, except that Luther was hardly the force that made the Reformation successful. Had he stood alone, he might well have met the same fate as Savanarola and Hus, among others. A primary reason that the Reformation persisted was that it was used by secular leaders to implement social and political changes that they desired. Certainly, however it happened, the Reformation has had an indelible impact on western civilization.

Absurd in what way? I never said Christians belonging to the Lutheran church dropped baptism; where did you get that idea from? The C.C. and the E.O.C. has 7 sacraments; the multifarious protestant churches have 2 sacraments; is that a correct assessment? If the protestant churches can drop the Eucharist, which was believed by everyone since Pentecost, as baptism was, then I should be able to drop baptism, and still believe that my new church is a part of Jesus’ Body; is that an equitable assessment?

Sorry, I guess I was being a bit flippant in addressing your comments. I would argue, though, that we Lutherans have not dropped the Eucharist and the belief that in it we receive the body and blood of our Lord. That’s one of the difficulties in speaking of “what Protestants do.” Again, from the Lutheran perspective as laid out in the Augsburg Confession, we have not departed from the historic teaching of the church that our Lord is truly present in the sacrament.

Scripture as the ultimate authority…the final benchmark for Christianity has divided Jesus’ One church; If it didn’t then why all the division, segregation and estrangement within the non-Catholic world?

Sin hasn’t taken a holiday. It still exists and it still leads people astray. Sadly, true unity among Christians may have to wait for the eschaton.

If that were the case, then why did Jesus confer authority/power onto His One church, AND NOT THE HOLY BIBLE? –which was infused with said authority/power on Pentecost by the Holy Spirit, in perpetuity to teach everything Jesus commanded? I’m not saying that the Holy Bible isn’t an infallible, supernatural, authoritative treasure trove; I’m saying that the Holy Bible is an infallible, supernatural, authoritative treasure trove, thanks to the C.C.! When people were arguing over which scrolls were apostolic and which scrolls were not, what did they do? They took this unresolvable issue to Jesus’ One church! The C.C. via the power of the Holy Spirit settled the matter once and for all in 393 AD; why should things be any different today? No C.C…no Holy Bible!

Luther would agree with you.

I’ve got to head off to other things – I’ll try to get back later on. The busy-ness of preparing for Holy Week is calling to me.

 

[guanophore]

Had it been so, we most likely would would not believe in the Holy Trinity, the creeds, and much else that we hold as the true faith.

Do you think that Luther did not believe these things?

If you speak of the church as an ecclesiastical organization, none existed when Jesus spoke those words.

Well, yes and no. Jesus was already in the process of laying the foundation of His Church, which is built upon the foundation of the Apostles. He had called them out of the world, and sanctified them for His work.

  It isn't we Lutherans -- at least not all of us -- who shut the door.

Do you perceive that Catholics do this?

  *Sola scriptura* simply means that scripture is the ultimate authority, the norm that norms all other norms.  It is not a denial that any other authorities exist, only that they are subject to, and subordinate to, scripture.

This is well said, and give clarity to the reason that it is an erroneous doctrine. In addition to the fact that it cannot be found in those same Scriptures, (it is an extrabiblical doctrine), the Scripture, Holy Writing though it is, cannot wield “authority”, which requires persons. The Scripture does not have intellect, will, discernment and the ability to take responsibility, all requirements of authority. This is why Jesus gave His authority to persons.

 

[SHW]

For me to ever even consider becoming catholic again after being there for 23 years (baptized, confirmed and through school education) the church would have to go through radical changes…

Abolition of the following:

1. Veneration of the saints, especially Mary
2. Praying to saints (addressing someone else than God in a prayer is praying to that person… e.g “Hail Mary”… They cannot hear these prayers anyway… it is far better to ask a brother or sister in Christ who is among the living to pray)
3. Current definition of “saint” as every member of the true church is a saint already and we are justified through Him… Paul talks to and about the members of the churches as saints.
4. Transubstantiation…
5. Adoration of the eucharist (blasphemy) instead of focusing on the Word of God
6. Perpetual adoration
7. Special priesthood…
8. Only the church and especially the pope can interpret scripture
9. Infallibility of the pope when he is speaking ex cathedra
10. Sacraments as a means of salvation (works do follow once we are saved because we are already saved)
11. Infant baptism
12. Confession to a priest (though I think that general spiritual guidance and help is appropriate when sought… confessions however are to be made to God)
13. Forgiveness of sins through the church
14. Prayer for the deceased (if they are in hell it is too late… if they are in heaven there is no need)
15. Purgatory (It is either heaven or hell… either a full atonement through the sacrifice of the Lord or none)
16. Classification of sins (the wages of sin is death)
17. Salvation as a graduate process
18. Apocrypha
19. Teachings about Mary, including her staying a virgin after Jesus was born, the assumption that she was without sin and the she ascended into heaven with her body and soul
20. Excluding women from the clergy
21. Forced celibacy of the clergy
22. The church as the Church of Christ instead of realizing that the Church are truly all Christians that are saved and atoned for by the blood of Christ
23. Not accepting other Christian churches are equally valid and right while declaring that somebody who was raised in a totally different religion can obtain salvation if he was truly seeking after God… (Jesus said “I AM THE WAY” and He meant it)
24. Not opposing the evolution theory
25. Traditions as equally important as God’s Word in the Bible
26. Not acknowledging that salvation is only by the pure grace of God
27. Not acknowledging the absolute inerrant Word of God as manifested in the Bible

Well those would be some…
I would turn back to the church if these things weren’t there… These were the reasons for me turning away in the first place… Without these I could reconcile with the church without conflicting with my conscience…
Thanks you for asking and reading through this…

In Him,
Janet

Hi Janet

You have a misunderstanding of “faith.”

True faith is also obedience to those who rule over us. Jesus set up a Church hierarchy for us to obey. They speak in His name. They transmit God’s teachings to man through Sacred Tradition which includes both oral and written traditions. (Luke 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:15)

Hebrews 13:17 “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”

Jesus is our role model.
John 5:30 “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.”

Philippians 2:5-11 “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

We must be obedient to the Church and not rely on our own judgments. Jesus started a Church to represent Him on earth and to speak for Him. (Matthew 16:18, 1 Timothy 3:15, 1 Peter 4:17, Hebrews 10:21, 1 Timothy 3:1-6)

Satan fell from grace because he was not obedient to God when given the “test.” If persons decide to become their own authorities instead of obeying His Church’s representatives (the Pope and Magisterium), then they also displease God. If they do this willingly and knowingly, then they cannot be saved.

Protestants can be saved and many are saved because God judges their hearts and He knows their intentions. Many Protestants are not willingly and are not knowingly disobeying God. He saves all persons who “fear (obey) Him and work righteousness” and this includes non-Catholics. (Acts 10:34-35)

Your “list” is your “protest” against both your perceived ideas of Jesus’ teachings and His actual teachings through His Church which is His representative on earth. This is why you are called a “Protestant.”

Pax,
SHW