What tempermant is Christ?

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May all of you on this thread and on this forum have a very merry, blessed, holy and Christ filled Christmas, so much so that it carries through for the rest of your lives.
Prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Does he have a specific tempermant?

I think there are four, right?
OCE: Character of Christ

Since Jesus is the New Adam as Man and He is Goodness Itself as God, His character would be surpassing, greater than we can ever know. But this dosen’t mean we cannot know something of Him by contemplation and study of the Scriptures, as the OCE article shows.
 
I find it interesting that Christ is never reported to have laughed in the Scriptures.

Significant?

It’s intriguing, I think, to consider this in light of what the Holy Rule of St. Benedict has to say about laughing.
 
I wish you had included what the Holy Rule says in this regard, as I don’t know it, despite my one time intention to enter the seminary.

What I believe is that–as reportage–what is recorded in the Bible may not be significant one way or the other regarding this matter. * I also know that without exception, anyone whom I have personally regarded as spiritually advanced or mature has had a puncturing wit. In fact, in some Eastern traditions, uproarious laughter is often an accompanying sign of enlightenment, sometimes with the statement “I have not been decieved.” Even in many therapies common in our culture, laughter is often taken as a sign that something has shifted for the better in the awareness of the client. Certainly, in my expereince, when I have had an insight about myself, whether with or without the aid of a friend’s (name removed by moderator)ut, I have also had a good laugh. This doesn’t seem to be uncommon. In addition, having a sense of humor sure goes a long way in dealing with the incongruities of our existance. My guess is that Jesus had His wits about Him in many senses of the word.
  • There is a wonderful treatment of the concerns surrounding reportage in a book by Gina Cerminara. It has a very unfortunate and misleading title, but it deals with sanity and religion. It is called Insights for the Age of Aquarius. It is, in fact, a book I would consider to be a foundational book in nearly any study of religion.
 
From Chapter 7 of the Holy Rule:

“The tenth step of humility is that he is not given to ready laughter, for it is written: Only a fool raises his voice in laughter.“

And:

“The eleventh step of humility is that a monk speaks gently and without laughter, seriously and with becoming modesty, briefly and reasonably, but without raising his voice, as it is written: ‘A wise man is known by his few words.’"

Now, I don’t think this is meant to suggest that Christ (nor monks) are without a sense of humor. Having a sense of humor does not necessarily equate into laughter, I don’t think.

On the other hand, I don’t think it means to suggest that all laughter, in itself, is wrong. I think if we contrast a kind of honest, “authentic” laughter stemming from such a puncturing wit, as you say, with all things comedic (coming from a world obsessed with “fun” and “funniness”) that we are bombarded with everyday, we may find a real reason to raise our voice in laughter. In fact, laughter at times seems to be inescapable…

But here is better analysis from an actual Benedictine monk:

"In Robert Heinlein’s science fiction novel Stranger in a Strange Land, the main character, a child raised by aliens who has been returned to earth, makes the observation that human beings laugh because they are actually very sad and need to distract themselves from this fact. He is able to see this because while he is human, he did not grow up with human beings around him and never learned to laugh.

When I read this as an adolescent, I was somewhat offended by the idea. I like a good laugh as much as the next person. As I have aged, I have come to see something of Heinlein’s point, though it is a bit overstated. Infants laugh or at least giggle out of sheer delight at an age where they probably can’t remember whatever existential dread they experienced five minutes ago. Also, St. Benedict does not condemn all laughter. The humble monk can simply be identified by a lack of readiness to laugh. It is important to emphasize that we will not become humble by moping about all day and frowning like a beadle breaking up a card game (that is supposed to be funny).

St. Basil amusingly permits his monks to appreciate funny comments by a slight smile. He notes that Jesus is never said to have laughed, and that in the Old Testament, the only time God laughs is at His enemies.

How does it follow that a monk who is reluctant to laugh is therefore humble? If we reverse the syllogism and say that a monk who simply bursts out laughing at slight provocations is not so humble, we might begin by observing that laughter has a certain effect on others. In fact, any sound we make has an effect on others, and one of the functions of silence is to learn to appreciate things as they are and not to feel compelled to control them by immediately making comments or overwhelming them by eruptions of passion from inside ourselves. When we recognize the jitteriness that often produces laughter, we can begin to ask ourselves some tough questions. Do I laugh because I really think things are funny, or am I merely uncomfortable and want to relive tension by guffawing? I am genuinely paying attention to things, or merely reacting out of my own nervousness? If I am nervous, why? Am I worried about what others are thinking of me? If so, this obviously is not about humility but a type of vainglory.

Again, I don’t believe that monks are meant to be humorless, and there are myriad examples of monastic goofiness. St. Bernard’s meticulous treatise on beards comes to mind, as well as the Master’s burlesque on the gyrovagues. The Desert Fathers surely could mingle dead seriousness with a light-hearted sense of the absurdity of human affairs. In fact, I am convinced that the Bible features all sorts of humor, much of which is lost in a concern to translate it with the solemn cadences of Shakespeare (usually without his genius). But the humor found in, say, the Book of Daniel (such as the sing-song repetition of the names ‘Shadrach! Meshach! Abednago!’) is not the sort to shock us into rolling on the ground in laughter, such as might be the aim of a Lenny Bruce routine. Rather, humor does seem to be related to sadness, perhaps not only as a distraction, but as a more proper response to the limits, contradictions and foibles of human experience.

Laughter, however, can be taken to various extremes. We should not end this step without noting that laughter is often at the expense not of our own weakness or foibles, but someone else’s. When we see a group of adolescent males outside of a school laughing knowingly, most of us would assume that the humor is off-color. Because laughter can wound, senstive personalities will be cautious to understand what is being said before stamping it with the seal of approving laughter. A monk who has seen many struggling souls and who has lived through many hard times in the communal life will, if he does not become cynical, become peaceful and naturally slow to react with passion to anything, except Jesus Christ. Such a peace indicates a quiet acceptance of oneself and of others and an unwillingness to control others by either putting them down or bullying them with loud noise.

This is one of the most problematic verses in all of the Rule. Often, the most difficult verses are the ones that reveal the most about our own cultural blind spots. What does it say about us that we invest millions of dollars in getting laughs from comedians and movies and cannot find Iraq on a map?"
 
Thanks; I learned a new word: “beadle.” I"m glad I looked it up, because I thought you meant “beagle,” but that didn’t make sense.

I’m delighted that you referenced Heinlein, as I have about half of his books on the shelf behind me. I’m familiar with the line and idea you quote, and had a similar reaction when I first read it.

I sense that like much else, laughter itself is neutral as a phenomenon, other thatn being a response to incongruity. It also is an indicator of the state of awareness of the laugher. Some folks find things uproariously funny that to others are painful or pathetic. I myself feel that there are kinds and degrees of laughter, like anything else. And, like morality, dispite the intentions of the Holy Rule, it is not something that can be legislated. But it can be a tool as you say for observation and introspection. Some things, especially some points of self dicovery, are innately funny. For some reason, so are farts. Those two may be on opposite ends of the spectrum, or maybe not. In any case, there are physiological changes that accompany mental activity, and though we don’t understand it, laughing is a way to de-stress, whatever the state of mind of the one experiencing it might be.

I agree that we tend to try to entertain ourselves out of needful considerations. And yes, some folks can’t even find Canada on a map, or they think that chicken is a vegetable. (True story) I think the intention of the rule might have been to be self aware and not given to the disipation of frivolity that defuses effort.

As for Heinlein’s observation through M.V.S., it does hold water in many insances. I’ve had spells where I was laughing and crying at the same time. Pain is useful up to a point, and then it needs to be mitigated or you can’t think or feel straight.

At any rate, it is a complex aura of consideration, existing on many axes. But it heartens me that someone else was and may still be provoked by ideas presented on society and morals by the Dean of science fiction.
 
His apostles were all young men.
Wasn’t Peter slightly older than He was? I recall one year older, but don’t know where that tradition comes from.
We might also remember that though we as persons seem to have a generally catagorizable temperament, it is the nature of a mature person to evoke to some degree whatever temperament is appropriate to a situation. Moreover, very advanced or mature individuals, being informed in their awareness by higher states of understanding, tend, as far as I can gather, to be simply present to what is happening at the moment and act appropriately for the highest good of the situation. I don’t know if that falls into the catagory of a temperament as it is commonly understood.
Especially if we add a total lack of venial sins. Our venial sins are a large part of our temperament. 😛

Our Lord came to everyone and He was perfect, so He couldn’t really just be a this or that, something easy to categorise and “steal” for one group rather than the other. This absolutely doesn’t mean He was any less human. He was more human than any of us.
 
Wasn’t Peter slightly older than He was? I recall one year older, but don’t know where that tradition comes from.
.
Even if Peter was a year older, he was not an old man by our standards. Jesus age range was between 30-36 at the time of the crucifixion. We’re not absolutely sure, becaue of the many changes in the calendar.

Judging from his activity level and the the year that he died, one can assume that he was young when Jesus ascended. John must have been in his teens. He out lives Jesus by approximately 50 to 60 years. He was probably late teens early twenties. when Jesus was crucified.

JR 🙂
 
Even if Peter was a year older, he was not an old man by our standards. Jesus age range was between 30-36 at the time of the crucifixion. We’re not absolutely sure, becaue of the many changes in the calendar.

Judging from his activity level and the the year that he died, one can assume that he was young when Jesus ascended. John must have been in his teens. He out lives Jesus by approximately 50 to 60 years. He was probably late teens early twenties. when Jesus was crucified.

JR 🙂
Yeah, not old by our standards, though not really young by their standards or relative to Jesus’s own age. As for John, my information so far has been 24, naturally probably not as precise in reality, and he was the youngest of them all.
 
Yeah, not old by our standards, though not really young by their standards or relative to Jesus’s own age. As for John, my information so far has been 24, naturally probably not as precise in reality, and he was the youngest of them all.
These were relatively young men. Jesus and Peter were probably considered middle-age in a world where the averagae life expectancy was not older than 60. In today’s measurements, they would have been in their 40s.

John sounds about right. In our theology course on John’s life, times and writings we estimated that he was about college age. There are some hints.
  1. The scripture speak of a young boy who was wearing a “toga” at the time of Jesus’ arrest and that he ran away naked. That was a common garment for young men. It was like a sari.
  2. There are references to the beloved apostle leaning against Jesus’ chest. This was a common gesture of affection toward younger boys. You pulled them close to your heart.
  3. John’s writings are clearly the product of a well educated man and that the author was educated in the Alexandrian schools. This suggests that John may have been sent off to Greece where he was not only an apostle, but also a student. His language and the language constructs that he uses in his Gospel are those commonly used by Greek writers of around the years 70 to 90 AD. He was alive very late into the first century. However, he retains the Jewish metaphors, symbols and theology. Which means that it was either the work of two persons, an older Jew and a younger Greek or one person who spanned the two cultures. This would meen that he was young and lived a long time.
  4. His Gospel was appended by another writer at a later date, but obviously one who knew John. John obviously influenced someone who was much much younger than the original apostles. Either he was very young when Jesus was crucified or he lived almost a century. The former is more likely.
Interesting stuff, but it has nothing to do with Jesus’ temperament other than to show that he attracted the attention of the young people of his time.

JR 🙂
 
Thanks heaps for starting this thread!👍 Recently I have been plagued with thoughts about Jesus being proud and mean etc. Which I know is NOT the case:mad: But I just couldn’t get these thoughts out of my head. This gives me proof, although mostly unneeded, that obviously Jesus was and is completely good and likeable. For some reason I liked this part of the Holy Trinity less than the other two.:confused:

Now I am fine…remember everyone, there’s something for everyone in each thing you do with faith and love for God!
 
Thanks heaps for starting this thread!👍 Recently I have been plagued with thoughts about Jesus being proud and mean etc. Which I know is NOT the case:mad: But I just couldn’t get these thoughts out of my head. This gives me proof, although mostly unneeded, that obviously Jesus was and is completely good and likeable. For some reason I liked this part of the Holy Trinity less than the other two.:confused:

Now I am fine…remember everyone, there’s something for everyone in each thing you do with faith and love for God!
The Trinity does not fit well into this thread and some people may have difficulty enjoying that part as much. Within the Trinity one is looking at Jesus’ divinity, not so much at his humanity.

When we ask a question about his temperament, we’re speaking about his human nature, which is more difficult to perceive in the Trinity. It is there, because we cannot split Jesus apart, but it is more difficult to analyze.

I’m not sure if we have really discussed Jesus’ temperament as much as we have his personality on this thread. But you can often understand a person’s temperament by looking a their personality.

One thing that rings through loudly and clearly in the Gospels is that Jesus must have been a very unassuming young man. The Gospels tell us nothing about him between the ages of 12 and 30. There is an 18-year silence.

When he begins his missionary work, his contemporaries do not believe him because they know him. He is the carpenter’s son and he’s a Nazarene. He’s never stood out for anything. They don’t even say that he was an outstanding carpenter. They just say that he was the carpenter’s son.

Obviously, Jesus was the kind of person who lived his life as he was supposed to live it, without the bells and whistles. Why else would they have been so surprised when he spoke? This was a different persona. He was still doing what he was meant to do. But the shift caught people off guard.

It’s very interesting from a historical and behavioural perspective. I think so anyway. I enjoy analyzing Jesus’ personality. It has helped me to understand what kind of person I need to become.

JR 🙂
 
Thanks heaps for starting this thread!👍 Recently I have been plagued with thoughts about Jesus being proud and mean etc. Which I know is NOT the case:mad: But I just couldn’t get these thoughts out of my head. This gives me proof, although mostly unneeded, that obviously Jesus was and is completely good and likeable. For some reason I liked this part of the Holy Trinity less than the other two.:confused:

Now I am fine…remember everyone, there’s something for everyone in each thing you do with faith and love for God!
i always reckoned that everyone loved Jesus in His time, some people for the wrong reasons perhaps, but that there was a good bit of personal envy over his popularity that must have contributed in some way to the pharisees’ dislike of him.

imagine being someone who was highly regarded in moral theology, people listen to you and look to you for answers. then suddenly here comes this carpenter. not only does he have good answers but people also like him better than you (well yeah duh! the incarnation of our all-loving and merciful God, what’s not to like?). i would guess that this would be rather humiliating for them - a loss of credibility AND popularity and with that, the loss of power. if people didn’t love Jesus so much, they’d have laughed in his face and stuck with the pharisees.
 
i always reckoned that everyone loved Jesus in His time, some people for the wrong reasons perhaps, but that there was a good bit of personal envy over his popularity that must have contributed in some way to the pharisees’ dislike of him.

imagine being someone who was highly regarded in moral theology, people listen to you and look to you for answers. then suddenly here comes this carpenter. not only does he have good answers but people also like him better than you (well yeah duh! the incarnation of our all-loving and merciful God, what’s not to like?). i would guess that this would be rather humiliating for them - a loss of credibility AND popularity and with that, the loss of power. if people didn’t love Jesus so much, they’d have laughed in his face and stuck with the pharisees.
But let’s not forget that not everyone disliked him because he took something from them. Some of the pharisees were genuinely confused by him too.

JR 🙂
 
But let’s not forget that not everyone disliked him because he took something from them. Some of the pharisees were genuinely confused by him too.

JR 🙂
yes… that does make sense. but also, as you say, he was an unassuming man, he didn’t seek popularity from others and yet still got it - in spades… that must have irritated the heck out of them 😉
 
I think Cathy and Michael have made very valid points.

Cathy spoke of jealousy or being threatened. We certainly cannnot rule that out. It’s part of the human condition.

Michael said that we are still confused by Christ. He points out the need to accept him with simplicity.

I can tell you from the story of our own founder, Francis of Assisi, who did take Jesus as a child would, simplicity can often be very complex. I’m just saying this from my own experience with Franciscan theology and Franciscan history. The more we try to simplify the deeper the questions go.

JR 🙂
 
I think Cathy and Michael have made very valid points.

Cathy spoke of jealousy or being threatened. We certainly cannnot rule that out. It’s part of the human condition.

Michael said that we are still confused by Christ. He points out the need to accept him with simplicity.

I can tell you from the story of our own founder, Francis of Assisi, who did take Jesus as a child would, simplicity can often be very complex. I’m just saying this from my own experience with Franciscan theology and Franciscan history. The more we try to simplify the deeper the questions go.

JR 🙂
yes. one of the simplest phrases embodies the most complex of all mysteries: “i am” 😉 i know that’s going a little off topic just musing out loud how your statement applies across the board 😃
 
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