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PiousTemplar
Guest
I don’t know what to say. I have no idea where to start.
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PiousTemplar
Guest
WOW - Thankyou so very much!
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Dorothy
Guest
The rites of the Church bring us, the Body of Christ, together in reverence to celebrate the Holy Mass, our central act of worship. Jesus gives himself to us in the Eucharist; the greatest of mysteries! In the Sacraments, which Christ instituted, we encounter Him!
We have festivals to come together in joy to celebrate our faith! We have processions to honor our Glorious God!
We have statues to remind us of the saints who have gone before us and give us an example of what God can do when we cooperate with His grace!
We have images and statues of Our Lord Jesus Christ, because he is Wisdom Incarnate, 100% God, and 100% Man!
We have festivals to come together in joy to celebrate our faith! We have processions to honor our Glorious God!
We have statues to remind us of the saints who have gone before us and give us an example of what God can do when we cooperate with His grace!
We have images and statues of Our Lord Jesus Christ, because he is Wisdom Incarnate, 100% God, and 100% Man!
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Joe_5859
Guest
There’s no need to create false dichotomies and push people towards picking sides.
Our faith in Christ is what leads us to put our trust in the Church and Her teachings. And the teachings of the Church (and her rites and sacraments) lead us to greater faith in Christ.
It’s not an either/or scenario.
Our faith in Christ is what leads us to put our trust in the Church and Her teachings. And the teachings of the Church (and her rites and sacraments) lead us to greater faith in Christ.
It’s not an either/or scenario.
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anruari
Guest
Ditto, & I just read the 1st couple of paragraphs!
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TimothyH
Guest
You are probably not going to get anywhere with the guy, but if you want to argue anyway, start with the fact that Christ was given by God to** the Church** as head over all things.
And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body (Ephesians 1:22-23)
Christ was not given to us individually as the head over all things, but to the Church. You have to be part of the Church to have Christ as your head. To be a member of Christ’s body is to be a member of the Church.
Personally, I would then go straight to Mary. You can’t go wrong with Mary. It is going to infuriate him though. Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ. Christ body is the Church. We are members of Christs body. Mary is the mother of all of Christ’s body, including it’s members, and so she is our mother. At this point he will either walk away and think you are a lunatic or he will insult you in the worst way. But the truth will be told and it will be told in a way that he has never heard anyone dare tell him before. And who knows, maybe years later, God will add something to it.
Sometimes I just bypass it all and go straight to Mary, Mother of Jesus, Mother of God.
If they accept that, they can accept anything the Church teaches.
-Tim-
And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body (Ephesians 1:22-23)
Christ was not given to us individually as the head over all things, but to the Church. You have to be part of the Church to have Christ as your head. To be a member of Christ’s body is to be a member of the Church.
Personally, I would then go straight to Mary. You can’t go wrong with Mary. It is going to infuriate him though. Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ. Christ body is the Church. We are members of Christs body. Mary is the mother of all of Christ’s body, including it’s members, and so she is our mother. At this point he will either walk away and think you are a lunatic or he will insult you in the worst way. But the truth will be told and it will be told in a way that he has never heard anyone dare tell him before. And who knows, maybe years later, God will add something to it.
Sometimes I just bypass it all and go straight to Mary, Mother of Jesus, Mother of God.
If they accept that, they can accept anything the Church teaches.-Tim-
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Waiting
Guest
The Church embodies everything that Jesus came to give us as a means to salvation. If you reject the Church which has the legacy from Jesus, you are in fact rejecting Jesus. You can’t love Jesus and reject His legacy.
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fhansen
Guest
Our faith is in God our Father-Jesus leads us to Him. Jesus established a Church to do His work of proclaiming the gospel which is how we come to know about God and His plan of salvation.
Is Jesus here in so immediate a way now that we can appeal to Him directly to know how to live out the gospel? No, our Church, with all her rites, sacraments, festivals, altars, statutes, processions, miracles and God-made-bread was established for that purpose.
We’re physical, finite beings-we relate to physical acts; the sacraments, for example, are visible signs of Gods working in us, to put it one way. In this manner we can concretely live out and dynamically experience His grace operating in our lives, rather than just pay verbal reference to it at best.
In the end it gets down to a question of authority. Many Protestants think that the bible is the authority which reveals Gods will-interpreted, of course, according to their own understanding- whereas Catholics believe the Church has that role.
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inkaneer
Guest
Quote:
My faith is in Christ and not in His Church and her rites, sacraments, festivals, altars, statutes, processions, miracles and God-made-bread. Yours is in the Roman Catholic Church. She will not save you.
My faith is in Christ and not in His Church and her rites, sacraments, festivals, altars, statutes, processions, miracles and God-made-bread. Yours is in the Roman Catholic Church. She will not save you.
Whoever said the quoted phrase obviously thinks that The Catholic Church is not the Church established by Jesus. If it were the phrase would be nonsensical as Christ is the head of the Mystical Body and the Church is the Body. The body would be therefore headless. So the obvious answer is to deny the basic premise that the Catholic Church is not the Body of Christ. By first denying the basic premise that the Catholic Church was the church established by Christ then you can ask the person to consider the alternative. If the Catholic Church was indeed the Church established by Christ, the one that Christ claimed would be guided into all truth then all those sacraments, rites, festivals, altars, do have meaning or Jesus was lying about the “guiding into all truth” bit. Then add that by denigrating those sacraments, rites, altars, etc. as the person is doing amounts to blasphemy. Then tell him that for 2,000 years people have believed that the Catholic Church is the church established by Jesus and it has been only in the last 500 years that that blasphemy as spewed from his mouth has replaced true belief.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
“Okey-dokey”
Then you shake the dust from your feet.
Or, you give an explanation for the hope within you. You explain your faith in Christ, including that you believe Him when He says “This is my body.” You explain that Jesus wanted a church, or He would not have mentioned it.
Then you shake the… nevermind…
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TimothyH
Guest
This has been my response more and more.“Okey-dokey”
Then you shake the dust from your feet.
Or, you give an explanation for the hope within you. You explain your faith in Christ, including that you believe Him when He says “This is my body.” You explain that Jesus wanted a church, or He would not have mentioned it.
Then you shake the… nevermind…
I hate to dismiss people and know that we are all called to spread the message of Christ, but I just see it as a waste to spend hours and hours arguing with someone who is just not receptive and with people who are often belligerent.
You are absolutely right Julia. State the reason why you believe Christ established a Church, the basis for the authority of that Church, and what it has meant to you personally and then stand ready. If they take an aggressive position and want to argue, then just shake the dust off and move on. If they want to have a conversation or a dialog, then engage peacefully.
Too many are unwilling to let an argument end without a clear winner. But arguing for argument’s sake, or arguing to win, to me, is a waste of time. It’s better not to ague and pray for them instead.
When he entered the house, his disciples asked him in private, “Why could we not drive it out?” He said to them, “This kind can only come out through prayer.” (Mark 9:28-29)
It’s important to be able to discern which demons we can drive out with our little faith, and and which demons require much prayer and fasting to drive out. Sometimes prayer is the only way and we have to leave the heavy work up to Jesus.
-Tim-
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bmonk
Guest
Where to start?
- My faith is in Christ. I meet Christ and learn to know Him through the Church, the community he founded precisely to keep alive the memory of Him on earth. The Church will not save me–only Christ can do that. But the Church does lead me to Christ.
- Where do (did) you come to know Christ to put your faith in him?
Though another person, or a church?
Through the New Testament?
Neither would exist without the Catholic Church. So your faith, also, comes through the Church. - I trust the rites and sacraments because Christ told us to do them. Matthew 28:19-20 (baptism), 1 Cor 11:23-29, Luke 22:14-20 (Eucharist), John 20:21-23, Mt 16:17-19 and 18:18-20 (forgiveness).
- To reject the authority of the Church is to insist that my judgment is better than that of billions of people over 2000 years, not to mention Jesus own teaching. I’m not sure that I’m willing to bet my life (literally) on my judgment being that good.
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PJM
Guest
Here is the right reply… to be done with a smile and charity
SORRY friend BUT God does not permit US to seperate the two. The Church is Gods, is Gods teachings and Gods commands. No where in the bible does God ever permit anything other than 1. Beleive in One God [Him/ Triune], or 2. more than His ONE set of Faith beliefs [Mt. 16:18-19… ONLY Peter holds the key to heavely access BECAUSE that is Gods OWN choice] or 3. The ONLY CHurch that He persoanlly founded and protects and warrants Her truths… His RCC.
God Bless,
Pat
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fred_conty
Guest
The Bible says that Jesus made a church in several places. Ask the question, “then why
did Jesus make a church?” Put the monkey on his back.
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EricFilmer
Guest
Well, let’s examine what this person told you in more detail:
Church: According to the gospels, Jesus often went to the Temple and the synagogues. So if Jesus spent a lot of time in the Jewish churches of his day, what is wrong with Christians gathering in church buildings in united worship? And, of course, Christ is the head of his Church, so having faith in Christ and having faith in Christ’s Church is the same thing.
And if this person believes that the translation of his Bible is an authentic representation of what was originally written in Scripture then he does, indeed, have faith in the Church. For example, the original copy of the Gospel of Mark was lost during ancient times (as is the same with all the other books of the Bible). It is the Church that tells us that the Gospel of Mark in the Bibles on our shelves are authentic reproductions of what Mark actually wrote in the first century.
Rites, festivals, altars, processions: What other ancient religion had rites, festivals, altars, processions? Judaism! And was Jesus a practicing Jew? Yes, and the New Testament clearly shows that he, himself, participated in all such things. Then he established his own church. So why wouldn’t a person want to participate in the rites, festivals, altars, and processions of Jesus’ Church? If Jesus associated such things with his own life, why should there be a problem with a Christian doing it?
Sacraments: If Jesus gave us sacraments then we are supposed to use them. The sacrament of baptism is actually part of the Great Commission! (for example, see Matthew 28:16-20). How can baptism be part of the Great Commission and be something that a Christian should not have faith in?
Miracles: So we shouldn’t have faith in miracles? Usually God used miracles in the Bible as an invitation for people to believe. An invitation to believe is likewise an invitation to exercise the virtue of faith. How does believing in miracles jeopardize a Christian’s faith journey?
Statues: So this person criticizes Catholics for having faith in statues. Well, before I refute that criticism, I have to know exactly what it means. I have statues, I use states as a focus of prayer and to remind me of spiritual things, but I wouldn’t say I have “faith in statues.”
God-made bread: If God “makes bread”, why on earth would someone not want to eat it? And if the “bread” we are talking about is the Eucharist, then from the Catholic perspective the only difference between the presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the presence of Christ when he arrives at his Second Coming to judge all of creation is that in the Eucharist he is veiled under the appearance of bread and wine. Therefore, to a Catholic, having faith in Christ means having faith in the Eucharist because the Eucharist is Christ.
Moreover, in the 6th chapter of John, Jesus said that if we eat his flesh and drink his blood, we will have eternal life, and if we do not then we will not have life within us. That certainly sounds like something worth putting ones faith into!
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Heuchler
Guest
Don’t tell them this but it really is a cop out for someone who wants to believe only what they believe. Christ set up a church, and Catholicism seems to be the church he set up.
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Crumpy
Guest
If you’re at a loss to explain this, then I am more concerned about you – for starters.
For decades now, priests have been saying that we Catholics have not been catechized well – taught about our faith – since the Second Vatican Council.
This is because – I think – because we have lost thousands of nuns – women who left their vocation, and women who have been too discouraged to enter the vocation, etc.
If you are inclined to read a book, then get Msgr George Agius’s book Tradition and the Church. It’s hard to summarize that book, but basically it tears down the Protestant rants against the Catholic Church and exposes them as lacking logical validity.
The upshot of this book is, the Church is the agent of salvation in the world – you’d better be in it and listen to it. Surely, there’s a lot of “noise” in the church now, with scandals in every western country over priestly sex scandals. This is discouraging a lot of people. But, that’s a separate subject.
You can’t possibly have “faith in Jesus Christ” — and not in His Church. That’s impossible. What is your friend going to say to Jesus, who is the Head of the Church?
uhhhhhhh…oh, darn!
Jesus told His disciples – He who hears YOU, hears ME. THIS is in the Bible. your friend better pay attention to the Catholic Church.
For decades now, priests have been saying that we Catholics have not been catechized well – taught about our faith – since the Second Vatican Council.
This is because – I think – because we have lost thousands of nuns – women who left their vocation, and women who have been too discouraged to enter the vocation, etc.
If you are inclined to read a book, then get Msgr George Agius’s book Tradition and the Church. It’s hard to summarize that book, but basically it tears down the Protestant rants against the Catholic Church and exposes them as lacking logical validity.
The upshot of this book is, the Church is the agent of salvation in the world – you’d better be in it and listen to it. Surely, there’s a lot of “noise” in the church now, with scandals in every western country over priestly sex scandals. This is discouraging a lot of people. But, that’s a separate subject.
You can’t possibly have “faith in Jesus Christ” — and not in His Church. That’s impossible. What is your friend going to say to Jesus, who is the Head of the Church?
uhhhhhhh…oh, darn!
Jesus told His disciples – He who hears YOU, hears ME. THIS is in the Bible. your friend better pay attention to the Catholic Church.
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Benadam
Guest
Jesus entrusted His earthly ministry to the community that surrounded Him. He taught that the community that surrounded Him that they would remain on earth untill He returned. No one can even know who Jesus was let alone have faith in Him apart from that community.
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