What the heck was wrong with Mr. Luther?

[CindyGia]

DavidB:

That is heresy, but I don’t think Joyce Meyer has ever taught that. Could you please reference your source for that claim? I’d be interested to know if it was true.

David

For DavidB:

Since I’m at work and can’t spend time trying to search out the pages I read months ago that told of these heresies. I did manage to quickly go onto "Google: and find these sites for Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, and also Benny Hinn.

I didn’t have time to read them to see which page claims their belief of a 9 person Trinity - but I know that it’s out there because I read it in black and white. But here are a few sites that say alot more than just that about the heresies they all believe in:

Joyce Meyer:

pfo.org/wan-star.htm

afcministry.com/Joyce_Meyers.htm

rickross.com/reference/meyer/meyer21.html

Creflo Dollar:

biblelight.net/Creflo-Dollar.htm

letusreason.org/Wf45.htm

biblelight.net/Creflo-Dollar-3.html

Benny Hinn:

rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/hinn/

rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/hinn/

 

[quasimodo]

to answer the question posed in the tile of the thread … two words:

Scrupulosity
nominalism

remember: heresy begins in the pants

 

[CindyGia]

DavidB:

That is heresy, but I don’t think Joyce Meyer has ever taught that. Could you please reference your source for that claim? I’d be interested to know if it was true.

David

For DavidB:

I just found this quickly on-line regarding the “9” person Trinity. But it was found on a Benny Hinn site. I know I saw it on other sites concerning what Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, Charles Stanley, etc. teach as well. But here is something for you now:

Teachings Of Benny Hinn

Let’s examine his actual words and then look at the Scripture for the Biblical facts on each subject. May I ask that you be very careful in reading his words so there is no misunderstanding.

The Subject Of God…: “God, the Father is a person, God the Son is a person, God the Holy Ghost is a person, but each one of them is a triune being by himself. If I can shock you and maybe I should, there are nine of them… God the Father is a person with his own personal spirit, with his own personal soul, and his own personal spirit body. You say, “I never heard of that.” Well, do you think you’re in this church to hear things you’ve heard for the last fifty years? You can’t argue with the Word can you? It’s all in the Word.” (Benny Hinn)

pawcreek.org/articles/endtimes/CultOfBennyHinn.htm

 

[roadrunner570]

CindyGia:

Charles Stanley, Creflo Dollar, and other famous television evangelist believe this very same heresy.

Incredible.

I don’t like Joyce Meyer’s teachings as they are false. I don’t know much about Creflo Dollar, but this is from Charles Stanley’s website:

The Triune Godhead

We believe in the one true and living God, the Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer, and Ruler of all things. He is infinite, eternal, and unchangeable, and is revealed to us as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

God the Father: God, as Father, reigns over all of His universe with providential care. He is all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing, and all-wise. He is fatherly in attitude toward all men but is Father, indeed, to those who have become children of God through Jesus Christ, who will deliver them into the Father’s hands. (Genesis 1:1; 1 Chronicles 29:10; Jeremiah 10:10; Matthew 6:9; Acts 1:7; Romans 8:14-15; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 1 Corinthians15: 24; Ephesians 4:6)

God the Son: We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, became man without ceasing to be God, having been conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin, in order that He might reveal God and redeem sinful man. He accomplished this redemption by voluntarily giving Himself as a sinless, substitutionary sacrifice on the cross, thereby satisfying God’s righteous judgment against sin. After substantiating the accomplishment of that redemption and justification by His bodily resurrection from the grave, He ascended to the right hand of His Father, where He intercedes on behalf of those who trust Him. (Luke 1:34-35; John 1:1, 2, 14, 18; Romans 3:24-26, Romans 8:34)

God the Holy Spirit: We believe that the Holy Spirit is the Divine Person who convicts the world of sin (righteousness and judgment); that He alone brings new life to those who are spiritually dead; that He baptizes (or places) all believers into the one true Church, which is the Body of Christ; that He indwells them permanently, seals them unto the day of final redemption, bestows spiritual gifts upon them, and fills (controls) those who are yielding to Him. Every believer is called to live in the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit so that he will not fulfill the lust of the flesh but will bear fruit to the glory of God. (John 3:3-8; 14:16-17; 16:7-11; 1 Corinthians 12:7-11, 13; Ephesians 4:30; 5:18)

intouch.org/inside/about_us/statement_76838.html

So can we please make sure we verify information before we slander a brother in Christ?

 

[johnpaullover]

Paris Blues:

I just don’t understand why Martin Luther dude had to start the Deformation…excuse me, Reformation.

He really didn’t have the authority to do so! I can’t help but think that he was not focused right to see what he was doing or - and I really hate to say it but going to say it anyway to make a point - he had a demon?

Haha, I sound like a ProtestCatholic…a Catholic protesting against Protestantism!

JUST KIDDING!

Martin Luther had a Walter Mitty complex.

 

[CindyGia]

roadrunner570:

So can we please make sure we verify information before we slander a brother in Christ?

Whose slandering? This is information I read on-line. I was very shocked to have read it. If and when I can find the source again, I will post it to prove it.

I personally love Charles Stanley - it was his television broadcast speaking of the “Prodigal Son” that brought me home to God in the first place…

 

[roadrunner570]

CindyGia:

Whose slandering? This is information I read on-line. I was very shocked to have read it. If and when I can find the source again, I will post it to prove it.

I personally love Charles Stanley - it was his television broadcast speaking of the “Prodigal Son” that brought me home to God in the first place…

Okay, well, just because something is online, doesn’t mean its true. Anyone can have any webpage where they say anything about anyone. To make such a harsh accusation without a verifiable, reputable source to back it up, well yes, that is a form of slander.

I mean, you wouldn’t like it if I went around the web and said “CindyGia thinks God is a woman!!!” and said I heard it somewhere but dont’ remember where. The info I posted above was directly from Charles Stanley’s website, info and link posted. I’ve read books by him and watched his show many times and have never heard him even hint at such nonsense.

The others, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, etc…they are part of this “Word of Faith” movement that most Evangelicals DO NOT go for at all.

 

[CindyGia]

roadrunner570:

The others, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, etc…they are part of this “Word of Faith” movement that most Evangelicals DO NOT go for at all.

My friend - Mr. Stanley supports those “other” evangelists which means that he also supports all they teach and believe.

Here are two sites for you: The first being an “open letter” to Mr. Stanley.

moriel.org/articles/discernment/church_issues/important_information_for_dr_charles_stanley.htm

The second emphasizes all his erroneous teachings. And there are many more “slanderous” sites out there. If people have done extensive research to find this stuff out - then there is something definitely wrong with Mr. Stanley’s teachings. Yes, he is a brother in Christ - and sometimes I am truly inspired by him, but if what is said here is true - he is also a heretic, like all the others.

atruechurch.info/stanley.html

 

[roadrunner570]

CindyGia:

My friend - Mr. Stanley supports those “other” evangelists which means that he also supports all they teach and believe.

Here are two sites for you: The first being an “open letter” to Mr. Stanley.

moriel.org/articles/discernment/church_issues/important_information_for_dr_charles_stanley.htm

The second emphasizes all his erroneous teachings. And there are many more “slanderous” sites out there. If people have done extensive research to find this stuff out - then there is something definitely wrong with Mr. Stanley’s teachings. Yes, he is a brother in Christ - and sometimes I am truly inspired by him, but if what is said here is true - he is also a heretic, like all the others.

atruechurch.info/stanley.html

Okay, so an letter to Charles Stanely proves nothing. THey throw a fit because he has a link to TBN and another station. WHile those stations do have a lot of false teachers on there, Mr. Stanley’s show also airs on there as well. So what is the problem with him having his show on there? he’s not endorsing false teachers, his show is one of the only true lights on that network. We are supposed to be a light in the darkness.

Secondly, you can sit and try to pick apart ANYONE’s teachings because there will always be differences. While he teaches eternal security, (something I’m not sold on myself) I dont’ find this a heresy or an issue of division, because anyone who has listened to him or read his books, he in no way encourages using salvation as a liscense to sin, but exactly the opposite.

On that other site I read through it and like I said, you can take any pastor’s teachings and pick them to pieces if you want. I don’t see anything edifying in doing this. However one thing on that site really distrubed me. Where he was calling Stanely’s stance on suicide heresy. Well, besides the fact that no where in the Bible does it say you are automatically condemned for committing suicide. If so, then Samson must be in hell too because he killed himself.

Also, I work with the mentally ill, and I have known former patients who have commited suicide, and first off, from my reading of Stanely’s teachings, he in no way endorses suicide as a way out. Second, the vast majority of people who attempt or commit suicide are suffer from severe depression or other forms of mental illness. Is God going to send a child of his to hell who is ill and not in their right mind? You have no idea how many patients I’ve had who told me that their church told them they wer going to hell because they tried to kill themselves and that God will never forgive them. Thats just great, lets just take a person who is already beaten down and then just drive them into the ground.

Sorry if I sound angry, but this is a very sore spot with me. People who are in their right minds DO NOT try to kill themselves.

 

[CindyGia]

I just happened to look at your profile and saw that you are Protestant. In essence, you will defend the Protestant faith and teachers of this faith no matter what type of research has been done on these evangelist.

I will not get into a theological debate with you over these “people of God”. All of these sites on the internet are there for a reason - posted by people who have researched the beliefs of these ministers. They are heretics - clear cut. End of story.

You can continue arguing until you are blue in the face.
I’m done with it. The proof is there in black and white.

 

[roadrunner570]

CindyGia:

I just happened to look at your profile and saw that you are Protestant. In essence, you will defend the Protestant faith and teachers of this faith no matter what type of research has been done on these evangelist.

I will not get into a theological debate with you over these “people of God”. All of these sites on the internet are there for a reason - posted by people who have researched the beliefs of these ministers. They are heretics - clear cut. End of story.

You can continue arguing until you are blue in the face.
I’m done with it. The proof is there in black and white.

Okay, so my (name removed by moderator)ut is dismissed out of hand simply becasue I’m protestant? That makes a lot of sense. Especially when I have made it clear that I do not support all of these teachers. Of the ones on TV, there are only very few who I agree with actually. For the ones I do listen to, I have researched their beliefs very thouroughly. I don’t just listen to whoever happens to be on TV, but I look into who they are, what they believe and why. Its called discernment.

Personal commentaries and editorials on the web prove nothing. You believe everything everyone else said, and ignore Charles Stanley’s own words from his own site. That doesn’t make a lot of sense.

And if you want to get into an internet article contest, I could find just as many if not more that say awful things about the Catholic church, but that doesn’t make it true does it?

 

[CindyGia]

roadrunner570:

And if you want to get into an internet article contest, I could find just as many if not more that say awful things about the Catholic church, but that doesn’t make it true does it?

Be my guest. Join the rest of the world who pit themselves against the one true Church of Christ. In my own opinion, it has no real significance. No doubt there is multitudes of information speaking out “against” the Catholic Church. But no matter what is said or done, let us not forget what our Master said (Matthew 16 18 “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”
Christ also said: “he who persecutes me, will also persecute you” (John 15:20). The Catholic Church is founded by Christ Himself, not a mere man, as is the Protestant Church. The Catholic Church is 2000 years old. The Protestant Church 500.

People who write “awful” things about the Catholic Church are “heretics” and mostly Protestant anyway.

But I give you alot of credit for defending your faith. I wouldn’t expect less. I still enjoy Mr. Stanley’s broadcast. I try to catch him on the nighly radio station as often as possible. He does inspire. I have to admit that.
God Bless.

P.S. I believe that if “many” people have taken the time to research the beliefs and teachings of some evangelists, and that what they teach is heretical, thank goodness these same people also take the time to make use of the internet to prove the errors of these teachings.

 

[roadrunner570]

CindyGia:

Be my guest. Join the rest of the world who pit themselves against the one true Church of Christ. In my own opinion, it has no real significance. No doubt there is multitudes of information speaking out “against” the Catholic Church. But no matter what is said or done, let us not forget what our Master said (Matthew 16 18 “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”
Christ also said: “he who persecutes me, will also persecute you” (John 15:20). The Catholic Church is founded by Christ Himself, not a mere man, as is the Protestant Church. The Catholic Church is 2000 years old. The Protestant Church 500.

People who write “awful” things about the Catholic Church are “heretics” and mostly Protestant anyway.

But I give you alot of credit for defending your faith. I wouldn’t expect less. I still enjoy Mr. Stanley’s broadcast. I try to catch him on the nighly radio station as often as possible. He does inspire. I have to admit that.
God Bless.

P.S. I believe that if “many” people have taken the time to research the beliefs and teachings of some evangelists, and that what they teach is heretical, thank goodness these same people also take the time to make use of the internet to prove the errors of these teachings.

Well, whatever. I am just as much part of the Body of Christ as anyone else who has Jesus as their savior, Catholic, Protestant, Messianic Jew, whatever. So I am not going to become divisive over such an issue.

And to say that most who write bad things are Protestants is a generalization. I’ve read horrible articles about Catholics by Jews, athiests, Muslims, you name it. I’ve read bad articles about Protestants by the same groups. We live in a world filled with hate for Jesus and both Protestants and Catholics are fair game for them. (Not saying ALL Jews, Muslims or athiests do this, saying that there isn’t any ONE group who attacks Catholics)

And as far as people researching these evangalists, the conclusions they draw are only their opinions. You or I could do the same thing about any priest or evangalist put it on the web. Once again, that doesn’t make it law.

Just like the reason I came to this site. I wanted to learn first hand from Catholics what Catholics believe. NOT listen to what other Protestants say Catholics believe.

I think it goes the same when researching any teacher. Go to their website, read their articles and read their statements of faith and draw a conclusion based on that. Not on what someone else says this person believes.

 

[wabrams]

CindyGia,

I can appreciate how you feel, but roadrunner isn’t attacking our faith. But I will say this: if every Catholic approached me the way you are approaching her, I highly doubt I would be in RCIA right now. SO show a little charity and don’t wear your feelings on your sleeve. Cowgirl up!

 

[mark_a]

roadrunner570:

Also, I work with the mentally ill, and I have known former patients who have commited suicide, and first off, from my reading of Stanely’s teachings, he in no way endorses suicide as a way out. Second, the vast majority of people who attempt or commit suicide are suffer from severe depression or other forms of mental illness. Is God going to send a child of his to hell who is ill and not in their right mind? You have no idea how many patients I’ve had who told me that their church told them they wer going to hell because they tried to kill themselves and that God will never forgive them. Thats just great, lets just take a person who is already beaten down and then just drive them into the ground.

I’m not sure of the Catholic Church’s stand on all points of the suicide issue, but I like your reasoning.

 

[roadrunner570]

mark a:

I’m not sure of the Catholic Church’s stand on all points of the suicide issue, but I like your reasoning.

Well, the hospital I work at is owned by the Mennonite church, which is a protestant denomination, an hanging up in our staff room is an article by Pope JP II about mental illness.

I found it online here:

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP96N30.htm

 

[roadrunner570]

wabrams:

CindyGia,

I can appreciate how you feel, but roadrunner isn’t attacking our faith. But I will say this: if every Catholic approached me the way you are approaching her, I highly doubt I would be in RCIA right now. SO show a little charity and don’t wear your feelings on your sleeve. Cowgirl up!

Thank you…but I’m a guy

 

[estesbob]

mark a:

I’m not sure of the Catholic Church’s stand on all points of the suicide issue, but I like your reasoning.

The Church would not condemn a mentally ill person who commited suicide. You can not commit a motal sin without knowing it.

 

[DavidB]

CindyGia:

For DavidB:

I just found this quickly on-line regarding the “9” person Trinity. But it was found on a Benny Hinn site. I know I saw it on other sites concerning what Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, Charles Stanley, etc. teach as well. But here is something for you now:

Teachings Of Benny Hinn

Let’s examine his actual words and then look at the Scripture for the Biblical facts on each subject. May I ask that you be very careful in reading his words so there is no misunderstanding.

The Subject Of God…: “God, the Father is a person, God the Son is a person, God the Holy Ghost is a person, but each one of them is a triune being by himself. If I can shock you and maybe I should, there are nine of them… God the Father is a person with his own personal spirit, with his own personal soul, and his own personal spirit body. You say, “I never heard of that.” Well, do you think you’re in this church to hear things you’ve heard for the last fifty years? You can’t argue with the Word can you? It’s all in the Word.” (Benny Hinn)

pawcreek.org/articles/endtimes/CultOfBennyHinn.htm

Hi Cindy,

I’m not in the habit of defending Hinn’s theology, mostly because I don’t pay much attention to him, but also because I know for a fact that he’s made many statements over the past 20 years or so that are theologically wrong. He’s also been clocked on them by others and he’s been humble enough to confess his error and change his teachings even to the point of pulling books off the shelf due to some errors. I say that to point out that if you find quotes from him, it’s important to find out whether or not they represent his current stances, since it may have been something he recognized as wrong and repented of already.

With respect to Joyce, I went to her website to find out what she teaches on the Trinity. Here it is:

joycemeyer.org/cgi-bin/doctrine.plx?page=about&subpage=doctrine&page_ref=Nav&section_id=NA&info=doc_Godhead

*Our God is One, but manifested in three persons • the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (Philippians 2:6; John 14:21-26)

God the Father is greater than all • the Source of the Word (Logos) and the Begetter. (John 14:28; John 16:28; John 1:14)

The Son is the Word flesh-covered, the One Begotten, and has existed with the Father from the beginning. (John 1:14; John 1:18; John 1:1)

The Holy Spirit, Who is eternal, proceeds forth from both the Father and the Son.
(John 15:26)*
**
Just as others have pointed out here, Cindy, you need to go to the source to find out the truth before condemning people. Anyone can post anything, in or out of context, without impunity on the web. Protestants trash each other as much as Catholics trash each other, it’s our fallen nature. I could quote lots of Catholic priest teachings from Sunday morning pulpits that differ with official Catholic doctrines if I were inclined to do such research (I was a Catholic for 21 years, so I’m familiar with the many different flavors in the Church, priests who teach that homosexuality is OK, or that birth control is OK, etc). Or I could get into the arguments between new order mass and traditionalists. If you want to hunt down some heresies, there are plenty in your own backyard. Shouldn’t it suffice for a Catholic forum that these ministers are Protestant? That alone, in your view, makes them and me heretics.

David

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Paris Blues:

Would this

be agood site to view too ?]

Why not ? The page is a decent outline of what happened, and why, to bring about the Reformation, until 1648 and the end of the Thirty Years’ War. It doesn’t try to cover everything - how could it ? It’s preferable to the sort of semi-history which represents members of this or that group as unoffending lamb-like martyrs, and those who oppose them, as God-hating monsters of corruption and cruelty - a sort of writing of history of which there has been more than enough, on all sides. Life is not that simple.​