What the hook-up culture has done to women.

[ThePCWife]

I guess where you and I differ is on the idea that hooking up and eventually getting married are mutually exclusive. I was told over and over that people who hook up hurt their chances of marriage. But, I looked around and the people closest to me who had wild pasts were often the most happily married. As an adult, I know what I did and I know what my friends did, and we are all very happily married now. The past has never caused a single problem in my marriage.

The on/off switch, the tape analogy, and other theories built around scaring people into believing that contact with another’s genitals will forever change them just don’t resonate with me. Sure, you can find examples like college poets, and so can I. People are all different and very complex. Chalking up all of these massive social changes to premarital sex is a serious oversimplification if not outright dishonest.

Are they, or you, happily married with 3+ children? Because I know tons of people with wild pasts who have nothing but wreckage to show for it. I find that people with wild pasts where it turns out okay tend to ostentatiously not notice the bad outcomes for those with wild pasts where it didn’t turn out ok. Based on my circles, it works out sometimes, but sadly not anywhere near a majority of the time.

Which is why I won’t be teaching my kids that an optimal marriage strategy is to sleep with a couple dozen people and then marry at 37-42 and maybe at best have one child. This works for some people in that they do find someone to marry them and are happy together, but I want my kids to have better options than that.

 

[EasterJoy]

Are they, or you, happily married with 3+ children? Because I know tons of people with wild pasts who have nothing but wreckage to show for it. I find that people with wild pasts where it turns out okay tend to ostentatiously not notice the bad outcomes for those with wild pasts where it didn’t turn out ok. Based on my circles, it works out sometimes, but sadly not anywhere near a majority of the time.

Which is why I won’t be teaching my kids that an optimal marriage strategy is to sleep with a couple dozen people and then marry at 37-42 and maybe at best have one child. This works for some people in that they do find someone to marry them and are happy together, but I want my kids to have better options than that.

It is kind of like habitual alcohol abuse. I know a lot of people who did it when we were in college. Now many have jobs, don’t do that any more, “too old for that kind of thing,” and so on. That doesn’t mean they weren’t driving drunk at the time or don’t have drinking buddies who have a case of alcoholism to show for their “wild” stage in life. I’m sure some of them will look back and say, “it didn’t kill us, look we’re OK now,” but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t foolish or harmful to have done that.

The “hook-up” culture is abuse of the sexual faculty just as surely as binge drinking is abuse of alcohol. It is telling, by the way, how often the two go hand-in-hand. I don’t think it needs to be said how often acquaintance rape is associated with a “hook-up” mentality, too. If the prevalence of binge drinking does not show that black-out drunkenness is not just “what normal college students do,” rather than evidence that responsible use of alcohol is the norm even when it isn’t the average, why does a habit of premarital sex with near-strangers get written off as “what normal college students do,” too? This is not a healthy thing, let alone an inevitable aspect of human development or some rot like that.

Again: we are talking about the extreme that is the hook-up culture, the “I’m-gonna-get-me-some” attitude, not the mere willingness to engage in sex before marriage with the person one has already agreed to marry.

 

[PRmerger]

Let’s just limit the discussion to our culture.

Oh, and also not to legal concerns.

So no need to say, “Well, sex on a commuter train is illegal so…”

Answer in philosophical mode, MJJean, not legal mode.

 

[Javan]

Are they, or you, happily married with 3+ children?

I would rephrase that question to “happily married and open to having children”.

Not all couples are able to have children, even if both spouses were virgins until marriage.

 

[starshiptrooper]

You are likely right on the point I emphasized in bold. Women are fortunate - there are a lot of thirsty men out there who will still marry them when they decide to hang up their diaphragm…

Excellent point! As men, we could end the hook-up culture by simply refusing to marry used-up party girls. Incidentally, this would enable us to avoid and eventually dismantle just about every aspect of family law in the West that is discriminatory against men including, alimony, child custody, child support, abortion, and domestic violence laws.

 

[LethalMouse]

I don’t have stats, but I’ve seen it happen. It’s a risk people take. Relationships not heading toward marriage end and usually one or both partners feel hurt and grief when that happens.

Doesn’t this basically lend to suggest it is not playing out as a particularly good thing?

 

[LethalMouse]

Excellent point! As men, we could end the hook-up culture by simply refusing to marry used-up party girls. Incidentally, this would enable us to avoid and eventually dismantle just about every aspect of family law in the West that is discriminatory against men including, alimony, child custody, child support, abortion, and domestic violence laws.

Sounds great in theory, but the numbers are against you.

Plus if you are being all believing “I had sex with a couple long term guys and now I found religion”

More often than not she is lying lol…

But seriously even if she is telling the truth maybe her mentality lasts for a few months or years and then party time again!

Plus the numbers she claims would have to be assumed true… LOL good luck with that…

But seriously if it weren’t for online dating your chances would be -5 lol. Before this internet I never happened upon a woman seeming to have any morals which is why I eventually broke down and joined them

 

[starshiptrooper]

Sounds great in theory, but the numbers are against you.

Plus if you are being all believing “I had sex with a couple long term guys and now I found religion”

More often than not she is lying lol…

But seriously even if she is telling the truth maybe her mentality lasts for a few months or years and then party time again!

Plus the numbers she claims would have to be assumed true… LOL good luck with that…

But seriously if it weren’t for online dating your chances would be -5 lol. Before this internet I never happened upon a woman seeming to have any morals which is why I eventually broke down and joined them

There was a rather funny hashtag circulating on social media awhile back, #nohymennodiamond. Perhaps it needs to be taken more seriously. :newidea:

 

[LethalMouse]

There was a rather funny hashtag circulating on social media awhile back, #nohymennodiamond. Perhaps it needs to be taken more seriously. :newidea:

I am starting to lean that way with the internet giving options lol. I am talking to a on paper quality lady atm. Hopefully the rest falls into place

 

[Xantippe]

There was a rather funny hashtag circulating on social media awhile back, #nohymennodiamond. Perhaps it needs to be taken more seriously. :newidea:

How are you planning on checking in advance?

Lots of luck with that.

Most actual Christian virgin women would be totally grossed out by the prospect of virginity checks.

Furthermore, most actual chaste Christian mothers would also be grossed out by that.

Actual chaste Christian women are like this when hearing manosphere guys talk on Christian forums. It’s like having a locker room discussion break out in the middle of church.

Ewwww.

You have no idea how repellent this is, even (or especially) to the women that you want to attract.

 

[starshiptrooper]

How are you planning on checking in advance?

Lots of luck with that.

Most actual Christian virgin women would be totally grossed out by the prospect of virginity checks.

Furthermore, most actual chaste Christian mothers would also be grossed out by that.

Deuteronomy had a rather interesting solution to this conundrum.
On a more serious note, who said anything about checking anybody? The point of the hashtag was that marrying women who slept around is an unfulfilling and stupid idea.

Actual chaste Christian women are like this when hearing manosphere guys talk on Christian forums. It’s like having a locker room discussion break out in the middle of church.

Ewwww.

You have no idea how repellent this is, even (or especially) to the women that you want to attract.

I know, hearing a blunt outside perspective that completely contradicts your narrative is shocking.

 

[Xantippe]

Deuteronomy had a rather interesting solution to this conundrum.
On a more serious note, who said anything about checking anybody? The point of the hashtag was that marrying women who slept around is an unfulfilling and stupid idea.I know, hearing a blunt outside perspective that completely contradicts your narrative is shocking.

Just in case you didn’t realize this, the stuff about virgins always bleeding at first intercourse is medically not the case–hence the traditional “bloody sheet” test is not very informative (and pretty easy to game with a little bit of prep). Also, there’s a lot of variation in the appearance of the hymen–and in fact some baby girls do not have it at all.

teens.webmd.com/teens-virginity

pamf.org/teen/health/femalehealth/hymen.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen

So, over the centuries, there have probably been a lot of girls and women who were unjustly and cruelly punished just because of a physiological accident.

You did say “nohymennodiamond.” Taken literally, that means no physiological virginity, no marriage. I don’t know how else to understand that phrase…Kind of a bummer for any girl who has been sexually abused or any woman who has been the victim of rape. Also kind of a bummer for widows.

Again, this is really gross.

I also think it’s really entitled of men who have sowed their wild oats to believe that they deserve a virgin bride.

 

[Xantippe]

Deuteronomy had a rather interesting solution to this conundrum.
On a more serious note, who said anything about checking anybody? The point of the hashtag was that marrying women who slept around is an unfulfilling and stupid idea.I know, hearing a blunt outside perspective that completely contradicts your narrative is shocking.

Look, at least 9 out 10 chaste women will be grossed out by your remarks and run hard and run fast if you say them in real life, and if they are mothers, 99 out of 100. The moms will put down the portcullis and fill the moat with alligators when they/we hear this stuff.

So, if you actually want to date and marry a chaste woman, you’re shooting yourself in the foot.

That’s just the facts.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Just in case you didn’t realize this, the stuff about virgins always bleeding at first intercourse is medically not the case–hence the traditional “bloody sheet” test is not very informative (and pretty easy to game with a little bit of prep). Also, there’s a lot of variation in the appearance of the hymen–and in fact some baby girls do not have it at all.

Apparently you missed the part of my post where I had typed, “On a more serious note,” immediately after the Deuteronomy reference. In other words, I was not taking that seriously.

So, over the centuries, there have probably been a lot of girls and women who were unjustly and cruelly punished just because of a physiological accident.

There have also been lots of guys hung over bogus rape accusations.

You did say “nohymennodiamond.” Taken literally, that means no physiological virginity, no marriage. I don’t know how else to understand that phrase…Kind of a bummer for any girl who has been sexually abused or any woman who has been the victim of rape. Also kind of a bummer for widows.

First, I called it a rather funny hashtag. Part of the reason it is funny is because of the outrage it provokes from you and the other members of the “Girls just wanna have fun” Club. Second, I said men should not marry women who have slept around. Neither widows nor women who have been sexually assaulted (not your affirmative consent malarkey) belong in that category.

I also think it’s really entitled of men who have sowed their wild oats to believe that they deserve a virgin bride.

First, I do not have the level of game necessary to be in that category. I also think it’s really entitled of women to sleep around in their teens and twenties, and then wonder where the good men are when they hit their 30’s.

Look, at least 9 out 10 chaste women will be grossed out by your remarks and run hard and run fast if you say them in real life, and if they are mothers, 99 out of 100. The moms will put down the portcullis and fill the moat with alligators when they/we hear this stuff.

So, if you actually want to date and marry a chaste woman, you’re shooting yourself in the foot.

That’s just the facts.

There is a slight difference between discussing this on a online forum behind a pseudonym, a burner email address and a vpn and discussing this in real life.
Besides, why get married when family law is written for masochistic men?

 

[Xantippe]

**Apparently you missed the part of my post where I had typed, “On a more serious note,” immediately after the Deuteronomy reference. ** In other words, I was not taking that seriously.There have also been lots of guys hung over bogus rape accusations.First, I called it a rather funny hashtag. Part of the reason it is funny is because of the outrage it provokes from you and the other members of the “Girls just wanna have fun” Club. Second, I said men should not marry women who have slept around. Neither widows nor women who have been sexually assaulted (not your affirmative consent malarkey) belong in that category.First, I do not have the level of game necessary to be in that category. I also think it’s really entitled of women to sleep around in their teens and twenties, and then wonder where the good men are when they hit their 30’s.There is a slight difference between discussing this on a online forum behind a pseudonym, a burner email address and a vpn and discussing this in real life.
Besides, why get married when family law is written for masochistic men?

Ha ha! Women get killed for not being virgins when they actually are! Hilarious!

If you don’t agree with “nohymennodiamond” then don’t quote it approvingly.

“First, I do not have the level of game necessary to be in that category. I also think it’s really entitled of women to sleep around in their teens and twenties, and then wonder where the good men are when they hit their 30’s.”

Aren’t you doing the same thing? You’re wondering where all the good women are while hanging out with the “bad” ones?

Bear in mind, the median US first-time bride marries at 27, and a lot earlier than that in a lot of states.

livescience.com/27974-women-media-age-marriage-states.html

The median Idahoan bride is 23.3 and the median Utahan bride is 23.3. Those are the lowest medians in the US, but there are 28 (!!!) states where the median bride is under 26 years of age.

I know you’ve seen a lot of woe-is-me stories by desperately single late 30-something female writers, but that’s just not representative of marriage in the US. But it makes excellent clickbait.

“Besides, why get married when family law is written for masochistic men?”

Wait? Which is it, “nohymennodiamond” or no marriage at all?

Because (at least from a purely self-interested point of view) there’s not a lot of point in carefully saving oneself for marriage if nobody is going to marry you anyway.

You’re making the argument for the “party girls.”

 

[Xantippe]

There are lots of perfectly happy husbands and fathers.

They don’t hang out in the manosphere.

 

[EasterJoy]

There was a rather funny hashtag circulating on social media awhile back, #nohymennodiamond. Perhaps it needs to be taken more seriously. :newidea:

Perhaps that needs to be brought up on a first date, to save the woman from wasting time on a jerk who expects to negotiate with her father over how many cattle the transaction is going to cost. What proposal do you, the man, not get from her if…oh, wait! She just has to take your word for it when you say you’re a virgin, doesn’t she? And you’re too ignorant to know all the ways a hymen can be broken that don’t include intercourse!!

I would not introduce someone with that attitude to any woman I know, I’ll just say that. I don’t care if it were my brother.

 

[Javan]

I also think it’s really entitled of men who have sowed their wild oats to believe that they deserve a virgin bride.

Yes.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Ha ha! Women get killed for not being virgins when they actually are! Hilarious!

I said the hashtag was funny. I said nothing about the hilarity of the God’s instructions to the Israelites. Try reading what I actually wrote.

If you don’t agree with “nohymennodiamond” then don’t quote it approvingly.

I as stated before, the point of the hashtag was that men should not marry women who sleep around. That is definitely something I agree with and will quote approvingly.

Aren’t you doing the same thing? You’re wondering where all the good women are while hanging out with the “bad” ones?

How do you know where I am hanging out, or are you putting your own spin (again) on things?

Bear in mind, the median US first-time bride marries at 27, and a lot earlier than that in a lot of states.

The average age of virginity loss for women is 17. 10 years is plenty of time to party.

Wait? Which is it, “nohymennodiamond” or no marriage at all?

Because (at least from a purely self-interested point of view) there’s not a lot of point in carefully saving oneself for marriage if nobody is going to marry you anyway.

I still have plenty of time to decide my goals and then achieve them. Besides, time is on my side. In about 10-15 years, the artificial uterus, virtual reality sex, and gynoids will be coming. If the current misandrist family laws do not change, even June Cleaver will have trouble getting married even with a pre-nup.

There are lots of perfectly happy husbands and fathers.

They don’t hang out in the manosphere.

Well, ignorance is bliss.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Perhaps that needs to be brought up on a first date, to save the woman from wasting time on a jerk who expects to negotiate with her father over how many cattle the transaction is going to cost.

I do not negotiate. I send my trusty manservant who only deals in bitcoin, gold, or cash to arrange all of my business transactions.

What proposal do you, the man, not get from her if…oh, wait! She just has to take your word for it when you say you’re a virgin, doesn’t she? And you’re too ignorant to know all the ways a hymen can be broken that don’t include intercourse!!

Actually, that was an assumption made by Xantippe. I have a proposal (not marriage before you assume that as well), if you agree to exercise a modicum of reading comprehension, I agree to simplify future posts to your level.