W
wisdomseeker
Guest
So, here you said that the Church becomes visible when believers get together. but then when believers go home, the Church is no longer visible. is it what you are saying here?
- Status
J
jmtosh
Guest
Yes and No.
I first stated that Christ’s kingdom was an invisible spiritual kingdom that cannot be pointed out as per Luke 17. You ignored his and insisted on a scripture where Christ says “the Church is invisible”. I conceded that I could not find that scripture as no such scripture exists and clarified that indeed the Church can be visible in the gathering of local believers as per the scriptures that evidently show this above. I made it perfectly clear that Christ is Head of the Church and that Church consists of those believers in heaven, the spiritual realm of heaven, and belivers on earth. I categorically state that Christ is the Head of this Universal Church both invisible and visible.(HEBREWS 12)
The Church is visible in that professed belivers under many names and divisions based upon differences in Church government or minor not cardinal doctrines, throughout history meet in the name of Jesus Christ. Of that professed congregation God knows His own elect. This visible manifestation of th Church consists of individual members as taught by the Apostles Paul and Peter and is not a building made with hands nor a central institution with branches. It has mystical union through faith in Christ with the Church in heaven. I can take you to see this Church when they are gathered together in Jesus’ name at a certain locale anywhere in the world.
I cannot however discern the spiritual life of the individual members of the Church other than by their profession or the fruit of their lives. I certainly can’t e if one person will be damned and another saved.
To be respectfully direct with you I don’t believe one can say here is the Church and point out St. Peter’s in Rome, or St. Patrick’s in New York or even Westminster Abbey in London!
I believe the scriptures teach the individual salvation of believers by the grace of God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and that by One Spirit they are baptised into Christ.
The visible gathering together of these believers is the local Church (Ecclesia) which together with the Church in heaven forms the Universal Church of Christ.
Can you show me the Church as it is defined in the scriptures?
I first stated that Christ’s kingdom was an invisible spiritual kingdom that cannot be pointed out as per Luke 17. You ignored his and insisted on a scripture where Christ says “the Church is invisible”. I conceded that I could not find that scripture as no such scripture exists and clarified that indeed the Church can be visible in the gathering of local believers as per the scriptures that evidently show this above. I made it perfectly clear that Christ is Head of the Church and that Church consists of those believers in heaven, the spiritual realm of heaven, and belivers on earth. I categorically state that Christ is the Head of this Universal Church both invisible and visible.(HEBREWS 12)
The Church is visible in that professed belivers under many names and divisions based upon differences in Church government or minor not cardinal doctrines, throughout history meet in the name of Jesus Christ. Of that professed congregation God knows His own elect. This visible manifestation of th Church consists of individual members as taught by the Apostles Paul and Peter and is not a building made with hands nor a central institution with branches. It has mystical union through faith in Christ with the Church in heaven. I can take you to see this Church when they are gathered together in Jesus’ name at a certain locale anywhere in the world.
I cannot however discern the spiritual life of the individual members of the Church other than by their profession or the fruit of their lives. I certainly can’t e if one person will be damned and another saved.
To be respectfully direct with you I don’t believe one can say here is the Church and point out St. Peter’s in Rome, or St. Patrick’s in New York or even Westminster Abbey in London!
I believe the scriptures teach the individual salvation of believers by the grace of God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and that by One Spirit they are baptised into Christ.
The visible gathering together of these believers is the local Church (Ecclesia) which together with the Church in heaven forms the Universal Church of Christ.
Can you show me the Church as it is defined in the scriptures?
J
jmtosh
Guest
Yes. Although that believer is still a member of the Church and may manifest God’s glory to another person at home as a member. But the Church vsible is the congregation of God’s people.
A
adstrinity
Guest
“Where two or three are gathered in my name…” The following two links are quoted here in part.
1. Where Two or Three Are Gathered
Christ sends out his apostles in pairs. The fact that the Gospel mentions this detail shows that it is not just an accident. There are some passages in Matthew’s Gospel that can shed some light on this desire of Christ. First, “where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them” (Matthew 18:20). The apostles are first and foremost called to witness to Christ by their example. They are to foster communion and charity among themselves, so that others, seeing how they interact with each other, will be led to exclaim, “See how they love one another!” The apostle-teams exhibited oneness of heart and soul, sharing in common what they were able to procure: lodging, success, failure. With such an attitude, Christ promises that he would be there in their midst.
catholic.net/index.php?option=dedestaca&id=1858&grupo=&canal=Prayers+%26+Devotions
The Lord Jesus is the word made flesh. In this reworking of the rabbinic verse, the Lord Jesus is equating two gathering in His Name with two studying the Torah. The subsequent parallel result is what so strikingly affirms His Divinity. It equates the divine Presence with His own presence. In other words, just as studying the Torah results in the Divine Presence resting on those two, so too does the presence of the Lord Jesus rest on those who gather in His Name. Some scholars see this reworking of the rabbinic text as a deliberate assertion of the Divinity of the Lord Jesus, and not just an ‘indiscriminant’ divinity, but the very Divinity of the God of the Old Testament.
hebrewcatholic.org/HistoryandCulture/Literature/inmyname.html
16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
(From www.drbo.org)
I can’t find the link now, but, basically, Matthew 18:20 cannot be used to support the invisible Church theory because Matthew 18:17 says, “tell the church”. If the church is invisible and holds no authority, this would be a useless saying.
1. Where Two or Three Are Gathered
Christ sends out his apostles in pairs. The fact that the Gospel mentions this detail shows that it is not just an accident. There are some passages in Matthew’s Gospel that can shed some light on this desire of Christ. First, “where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them” (Matthew 18:20). The apostles are first and foremost called to witness to Christ by their example. They are to foster communion and charity among themselves, so that others, seeing how they interact with each other, will be led to exclaim, “See how they love one another!” The apostle-teams exhibited oneness of heart and soul, sharing in common what they were able to procure: lodging, success, failure. With such an attitude, Christ promises that he would be there in their midst.
catholic.net/index.php?option=dedestaca&id=1858&grupo=&canal=Prayers+%26+Devotions
The Lord Jesus is the word made flesh. In this reworking of the rabbinic verse, the Lord Jesus is equating two gathering in His Name with two studying the Torah. The subsequent parallel result is what so strikingly affirms His Divinity. It equates the divine Presence with His own presence. In other words, just as studying the Torah results in the Divine Presence resting on those two, so too does the presence of the Lord Jesus rest on those who gather in His Name. Some scholars see this reworking of the rabbinic text as a deliberate assertion of the Divinity of the Lord Jesus, and not just an ‘indiscriminant’ divinity, but the very Divinity of the God of the Old Testament.
hebrewcatholic.org/HistoryandCulture/Literature/inmyname.html
16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
(From www.drbo.org)
I can’t find the link now, but, basically, Matthew 18:20 cannot be used to support the invisible Church theory because Matthew 18:17 says, “tell the church”. If the church is invisible and holds no authority, this would be a useless saying.
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
there is easy to do. but you will not understand.
you must understand first the Kingdom of David and how the Jews worshipped God.
i can give you some passages and you can read for yourself.
just remember, Jesus Himself said: that they may be One that the world may believe. this is a plea from Jesus because it is important to Him. it is important to Him that the world believe in Him. the CC has been teach the Faith for 2000 yrs. although some have left the Church to follow err, the Church continues to this day proclaiming the Gospel of Truth to the world. the Church does not depend on how many people is in her. she is just here to proclaim the Truth entrusted to her from Jesus and the Apostles.
another thing about the Church. the Church is visible and invisible. the Church always said this. the Church in Heaven and the Church on earth are One. how are they One?
they are One because they agree in all things. they have the same Worship. do you know how they Worship in Heaven?
Use this guideline as a measure…
*It was founded by Jesus Christ Himself in Mt 16:18.
*It would be built on Simon Peter, Mt 16:18.
*It would be defended by GOD Himself, Mt 16:18-19.
*It would have authority given by Jesus Christ, Mt 16:19,18:17-18.
*It would be guided by the Holy Spirit who will dwell within it, Jn 14:15-17, Act 15:28,16:6.
*It would be one and undivided, Mk 3:24-25.
*It would have one fold and one shepherd, Jn 10:16.
*It would have Priests, Bishops, and Deacons, 1Tim 3:1-13.
*It must have the Holy Eucharist celebration, Jn 6:42-70, Act 2:42.
*It must be found in all nations, Mt 28:19.
*It must be found in all centuries, Mt 28:20.
*Jesus Christ said He would be with His Church every day, in every year, until the end of the world, Mt 28:20. This means no gaps in time.
J
jmtosh
Guest
Yes. In this context the Church is a body of believers congregated in a certain place right? So the Church that is told are the other believers not a Council as such or a building.
Here I set forth what Protestants commonly believe as regards the Church as set forth in ScriptThe true Church of Christ is built upon e Rock which is Christ and is composed of th believing faithful who are saved by Christ. - “Holy and wthout blemish which is washed in the blood of the Lamb”.
In the Roman Cathoilic Baltimore Catechism question 115 we read “Q. What is the Church? A. The Church is the congregation of all those who profess the faith of Christ, and are governed by its lawful pastors undr ne visible head (the Pope) .”
The Church of Rome is a visible society, but th Church of Christ is invisible: “The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation… the Kingdom of God is within you.” LUKE 17 : 20,21.
THAT TEACHES THE INVISIBLE CHURCH OF CHRIST.
“God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth>” John 4: 24
Only the invisibe Church of Christ composed of men and women whom the Holy Spirit has called, enlightened and sanctified possess the four marks of the true Church - i.e. that she is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
The Church of Rome cannot call itself Holy because it allows as members in good standing adulterers, drunkards and corrupt politicians. Many leaders of the oman Catholic Church, popes, bishops and priests have been icked men. How can such a Church be called Holy?
The word Catholimeans Universal; The term Catholic Church is first used in the letter of Ignatius to the Smyrneans (110 A.D.) Buhe did not aply the term to Rome or even to Smyrna but to any group believing in Jesus Christ.
"Where the Bishop is , there let the multitude of believer’s be; even as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."AD smy 8:2
St Chrysostom (347-407) in Homilies on Adam and Eve says “that may not be considered Catholic which appears to be contrary to the statements of th scriptures”
St. Augustine (353 -430) sermon 14 De Verbo Apost. writes “Faith in Scriptures is the most Catholic mark of all.”
The Roman Church is without this most Catholic mark of all as it has substituted tradition for the Bible such as the worship of saints, the mass, purgatory., indulgences, forgiveness of sins by a priest, etc all of which are contry to the statements of the Scriptures.
The Roman Church is not Uniersal because it is localised and limited ; its seat is in Rome and itteaches taht only those who are governed by its lawful pastors under one visible head are its members. According to Protestantism the Church of Christ consists of the whole body of the saved in every age, including thredeemed in heaven and all true believers on earth;and they havethe most Cathoilic mark of all i.e.faith in the scriptures!
ure:
Here I set forth what Protestants commonly believe as regards the Church as set forth in ScriptThe true Church of Christ is built upon e Rock which is Christ and is composed of th believing faithful who are saved by Christ. - “Holy and wthout blemish which is washed in the blood of the Lamb”.
In the Roman Cathoilic Baltimore Catechism question 115 we read “Q. What is the Church? A. The Church is the congregation of all those who profess the faith of Christ, and are governed by its lawful pastors undr ne visible head (the Pope) .”
The Church of Rome is a visible society, but th Church of Christ is invisible: “The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation… the Kingdom of God is within you.” LUKE 17 : 20,21.
THAT TEACHES THE INVISIBLE CHURCH OF CHRIST.
“God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth>” John 4: 24
Only the invisibe Church of Christ composed of men and women whom the Holy Spirit has called, enlightened and sanctified possess the four marks of the true Church - i.e. that she is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
The Church of Rome cannot call itself Holy because it allows as members in good standing adulterers, drunkards and corrupt politicians. Many leaders of the oman Catholic Church, popes, bishops and priests have been icked men. How can such a Church be called Holy?
The word Catholimeans Universal; The term Catholic Church is first used in the letter of Ignatius to the Smyrneans (110 A.D.) Buhe did not aply the term to Rome or even to Smyrna but to any group believing in Jesus Christ.
"Where the Bishop is , there let the multitude of believer’s be; even as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."AD smy 8:2
St Chrysostom (347-407) in Homilies on Adam and Eve says “that may not be considered Catholic which appears to be contrary to the statements of th scriptures”
St. Augustine (353 -430) sermon 14 De Verbo Apost. writes “Faith in Scriptures is the most Catholic mark of all.”
The Roman Church is without this most Catholic mark of all as it has substituted tradition for the Bible such as the worship of saints, the mass, purgatory., indulgences, forgiveness of sins by a priest, etc all of which are contry to the statements of the Scriptures.
The Roman Church is not Uniersal because it is localised and limited ; its seat is in Rome and itteaches taht only those who are governed by its lawful pastors under one visible head are its members. According to Protestantism the Church of Christ consists of the whole body of the saved in every age, including thredeemed in heaven and all true believers on earth;and they havethe most Cathoilic mark of all i.e.faith in the scriptures!
ure:
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
you believe in the visible Church but you cannot define the visible Church. interesting.
as Catholics, we can tell you that the visible Church is the Catholic Church. we dont have to go around and around to avoid the Truth trying to explain something that is not true. i know is hard for you to explain the visible Church because you are not in her. you have no history to back your assumption so you try to draw from Scriptures which bring you confusing ideas.
Peace.
J
jmcrae
Guest
How so?
Since the Universal Church is busy throughout Holy Writ writing Epistles and Gospels to the various outlying regions, and holding Councils to discern the will of the Holy Spirit (Acts 15) and issuing edicts (Revelation 1, 2) - not only are they not “invisible” they aren’t even passively observing in the background. They were right up front, in the faces of the early Christians, and very, very visible to them.
J
jmtosh
Guest
Friend,
I think we are cross firing here in that whilst I am yping you are too! LOL!!!
I understand the rock in Holy Scripture to be Christ. 1 Cor 10:3 “…and that Rock was Christ.” It is used of God throughout the Psalms and the prophets.
The Roman Church has not taught the same Gospel through 2000 years! I mentioned above that its teaching was progressive.
Baptism as a savig ordinance - 150 A.D.
Infant Baptism - 225
The Lord’s Supper as an elaborate sacramental sacrifice 250
Prayers for the dead 300
Making the sign of the cross 300
Worship in Latin 600
Temporal Power 754
Worship of Mary & Saints 788
Worshp of cross, images, relics 788
Fasting Fridays & Lent 998
Holy Water 1000
Rosary beads 1090
Money for masses 1100
Celibacy of priests 1123
Inqisition 1184
Sale of Indulgences 1190
Transubstantiation of wafer1215
Auricular Confession 1215
Adoration of the wafer 1220
RCC as only Catholic Church 1303
Cup denied to laymen 1415
Purgatory 1438
Decrees of Trent 1545
Justification by works and not faith alone 1545
Tradition equal in authoity to Bible 1545
Immaculate Conception of Mary 1854
Infallibility of the Pope 1870
Assumption o Mary 1950
Yes it is true it is Christ’s will that we all be one in the Faith. But firstly that faith must be the faith of Christ Jude enjoins us to earnestly contend for the faih that was once delivered to the saints. There cannot be ecumenism at any cost . Although Protestant denominations ay differ on minor matters we generally agree on the major doctrines of Christ such as His Deity, Salvation by Grace through Faith, etc
Nowhere does the NT teach a hierarchial priesthood and a laity of others, celibacy of priests, etc It does teach that all believers are priests and that Christ is the High Priest and only Mediator between God and men.
I think we are cross firing here in that whilst I am yping you are too! LOL!!!
I understand the rock in Holy Scripture to be Christ. 1 Cor 10:3 “…and that Rock was Christ.” It is used of God throughout the Psalms and the prophets.
The Roman Church has not taught the same Gospel through 2000 years! I mentioned above that its teaching was progressive.
Baptism as a savig ordinance - 150 A.D.
Infant Baptism - 225
The Lord’s Supper as an elaborate sacramental sacrifice 250
Prayers for the dead 300
Making the sign of the cross 300
Worship in Latin 600
Temporal Power 754
Worship of Mary & Saints 788
Worshp of cross, images, relics 788
Fasting Fridays & Lent 998
Holy Water 1000
Rosary beads 1090
Money for masses 1100
Celibacy of priests 1123
Inqisition 1184
Sale of Indulgences 1190
Transubstantiation of wafer1215
Auricular Confession 1215
Adoration of the wafer 1220
RCC as only Catholic Church 1303
Cup denied to laymen 1415
Purgatory 1438
Decrees of Trent 1545
Justification by works and not faith alone 1545
Tradition equal in authoity to Bible 1545
Immaculate Conception of Mary 1854
Infallibility of the Pope 1870
Assumption o Mary 1950
Yes it is true it is Christ’s will that we all be one in the Faith. But firstly that faith must be the faith of Christ Jude enjoins us to earnestly contend for the faih that was once delivered to the saints. There cannot be ecumenism at any cost . Although Protestant denominations ay differ on minor matters we generally agree on the major doctrines of Christ such as His Deity, Salvation by Grace through Faith, etc
Nowhere does the NT teach a hierarchial priesthood and a laity of others, celibacy of priests, etc It does teach that all believers are priests and that Christ is the High Priest and only Mediator between God and men.
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
See, i told you, you wouldnt understand.
you keep saying protestants say this, protestants say that. it doesnt matter what protestants say. they dont have authority.
the Roman Church is One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. there is no other. first, she has always been called Catholic Church by the whole world. just because england decided to start calling her roman Church, it doesnt change the Truth. i cant go into to much detail on this.
although, the Church is settled in Roman, she is not just in rome, she is spreaded throughout the world under one authority on earth, the holy father, the Pope. the OT speaks of a Kingdom to come that will last forever. the Jews were waiting for the King to free them from the oppressores. probably the romans. Jesus came at the right time. Jesus did conquered the romans, not the way of the Jews but His way. Jesus took the world by storm, destroy the rome empire and set His Kingdom right in the heart of rome. very excited indeed.
our Faith is not in the Bible, we have Faith in God, our Lord. we are not the people of the Bible, we are the people of God. once you come into the Church, you will understand why we Catholics love hte Church so much. Just like David loved the Temple of God in his time.
J
jmtosh
Guest
There is no scripture saying verbatim “the Universal Church is Invisible” much like there is no scripture saying “God is a Trinity” yet the teaching is apparent in principles and other verbiage used.
Yes the Apostles and disciples who wrote scripture and collected various MSS of the O.T. were there and there was a visible Church when they congregated. Where was it - the temple, in homes at Antioch, in Jerusalem, Rome, Corinth, Alexandria, Crete, Ephesus, etc. Was there a central society organisation called the church Catholic - not at that time. The church consisted of individuals that Christ had saved and professed faith in Him. Tat is what I am at pains to point out - the Church is people of O.T. and New that are redeemed by God in Jsus Christ? Were all the Church that gathered there visibly - No. Think of Alexander the coppersmith, Simon the sorcerer,etc and others that were false brethren. The truth is there was no central church governed by pope. Peter, James and John are described in Acts as pillars of the Church. There was the Apostle Paul and Barnabus, who split for a while over Mark. When Peter and the others had died John and Polycarp, Papias, etc were located in Ephesus. There was no Roman Catholic Church and the term Catholic Church was applied to all of the faith in Jesus Christ.
Nowhere is the lording of authority over the flock by one person endorsed instead it is censured.
f you say that I am not in the Church I tell you you have no right whatsoever to say that. IThe scriptures tell me that Christ knows His sheep. The Holy Scriptures teach faith in Jesus Chrsit in His death , burial and resurrection and of being born of God by His Holy Spirit. That puts a person into the Church.
Yes the Apostles and disciples who wrote scripture and collected various MSS of the O.T. were there and there was a visible Church when they congregated. Where was it - the temple, in homes at Antioch, in Jerusalem, Rome, Corinth, Alexandria, Crete, Ephesus, etc. Was there a central society organisation called the church Catholic - not at that time. The church consisted of individuals that Christ had saved and professed faith in Him. Tat is what I am at pains to point out - the Church is people of O.T. and New that are redeemed by God in Jsus Christ? Were all the Church that gathered there visibly - No. Think of Alexander the coppersmith, Simon the sorcerer,etc and others that were false brethren. The truth is there was no central church governed by pope. Peter, James and John are described in Acts as pillars of the Church. There was the Apostle Paul and Barnabus, who split for a while over Mark. When Peter and the others had died John and Polycarp, Papias, etc were located in Ephesus. There was no Roman Catholic Church and the term Catholic Church was applied to all of the faith in Jesus Christ.
Nowhere is the lording of authority over the flock by one person endorsed instead it is censured.
f you say that I am not in the Church I tell you you have no right whatsoever to say that. IThe scriptures tell me that Christ knows His sheep. The Holy Scriptures teach faith in Jesus Chrsit in His death , burial and resurrection and of being born of God by His Holy Spirit. That puts a person into the Church.
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
Major doctrines. humnnnn…
we can contend for ages about Scriptures. what it says and what doesnt say. we will never agree. i can show Scriptures to you that proves true all that you dissagree with the CC, but it wouldnt profit me nothing. it is better for you to seek the Truth. to have the desire to want to find the Truth. it is not as easy as you think it is.
God stablished one Church. this is very important to understand.
He promised to protect the Church until the end of ages. martin luther decided that the Church protected by Christ wasnt good enough. so, he decide he could do better. did he?
He called the Church the Pillar and Bullwark of the Truth. this is very important to understand. do you understand this? this Church cannot teach err.
J
jmcrae
Guest
Yes, there was - it was Peter and the other Apostles. Read the Book of Acts - they were in charge! The local churches weren’t being left to flounder around and figure things out by themselves - St. Paul was being commissioned by Peter and the other Apostles to go to them, teach them, write them letters, lead them, and guide them.
Who were then excommunicated by St. Peter, in person. Again, no one was left to wonder whether these guys were teaching authentic Christianity.
Yes, there was.
YES, exactly!!
Peter was their leader, and the Apostles followed Peter, and the people followed the Apostles. They were all One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.So, you would identify a unified Christian Church by the mark of “lording of authority”? :whacky:
Then what gave St. Peter the right to tell Simon Magus that he was no Christian? Or to call down the wrath of God on Ananias and Sapphira?
And in John 21:15-19, we see Him setting St. Peter up as chief shepherd over His sheep.
J
jmtosh
Guest
I understand - 1 Tim 3:15 right? This Church is the body of Christ and all those who are His by faith as ribed in Timothy’s epistle.!
What I am saying is yes God has established one Church and that Church is in Christ and is protected by Christ . It is a mystery and a work of God’s Spirit in human hearts. It is not the visible system you claim it is. In fact the scriptures teach that the visible church is an apostate Church, it consists of tares sown by the wicked one and will ultimately manifest the Man of Sin whoever he is and wherever that Church may be .Now I am not saying that is the RCC!
Thank you for the stimulating conversation.
What I am saying is yes God has established one Church and that Church is in Christ and is protected by Christ . It is a mystery and a work of God’s Spirit in human hearts. It is not the visible system you claim it is. In fact the scriptures teach that the visible church is an apostate Church, it consists of tares sown by the wicked one and will ultimately manifest the Man of Sin whoever he is and wherever that Church may be .Now I am not saying that is the RCC!
Thank you for the stimulating conversation.
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
oh dear. when you stop jumping all over Scriptures and listen, maybe, just maybe, you come to understand of the Church.
the Apostles never tought that we must be master of ourselves. they never tought anything different from each other. how can anyone come up with this idea is beyond me.
just because you have the Bible today at your hands, it doesnt mean you dont need the Church Jesus found to teach. Jesus did not send forth the Bible. He did send the Apostles and Apostles sent others, that is how we have Apostolic Succession. protestants dont have Apostolic Succession. they are not sent by the Church. only the Church can send people to teach and preach. only the CC has this authority. only the CC can judge by the Truth of the Scriptures. only the CC can search Scriptures to see if someone is teaching err or the Truth.
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
so, now you say that the Church is not visible. i remember before you said the Church is visible. which is it? make you mind please. oh, now you say that the visible Church is an apostate. but you said you are a part of the visible, so are you part of the apostate Church?
J
jmtosh
Guest
I would just like to say that although we may not reach agreement on this I have really enjoyed this discussion. I understand the claims that the RCC makes and I wish it were that simple. I also wish I could express what I believe more comprehensively.
Please excuse me as it is actually 02:19 a.m here and I 'd better go to bed now!
Thanks & Regards,
Jon
Please excuse me as it is actually 02:19 a.m here and I 'd better go to bed now!
Thanks & Regards,
Jon
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
The Catholic Church is the only one who makes these claims and the only one that can make these claims.I would just like to say that although we may not reach agreement on this I have really enjoyed this discussion. I understand the claims that the RCC makes and I wish it were that simple. I also wish I could express what I believe more comprehensively.
Please excuse me as it is actually 02:19 a.m here and I 'd better go to bed now!
Thanks & Regards,
Jon
like i said before, to understand the Church, you must first understand the Kingdom of David and Judaism.
good night.
P
Padrej
Guest
To what theological contributions: I would say all the differing theories of the rapture, they were not around before the 1830s (pre trib, post trib mid trib , historical etc).
I don’t think the Roman Catholic church can claim revival meetings (tent meetings) as part of their theological contributions to Christianity with the “mourner’s bench” and “sawdust trail.” Yes there were some preacher of the 1840s and 50s America that leaned that way, but they tended to be military chaplains. Fr. Corby of the Irish Brigade comes to mind.
Nor could they claim the great evangelists like Billy Sunday, Charles Spurgeon, Billy Graham. Nor can the claim the Wesley brothers, John and Charles. Nor can they claim the contributions of the blind hymn writer Fanny Crosby who is responsible for over 9,000 hymns known to the Protestant faith.
Don’t think hymn writing is important? think about this, John Wesley said “If you want to change the way a church thinks, change its hymns.” Notice in today’s hymns they have changed “Rise up ye men of God” to “Rise up ye Saints of God.” Subtle gender changes are making their way in.
I don’t see the Christian writer Charles Sheldon amongst Roman Catholic writers or CS Lewis for that matter. Their works have been classics of Christianity for years. My question is: has the Roman Catholic church produced such?
I don’t think the Roman Catholic church can claim revival meetings (tent meetings) as part of their theological contributions to Christianity with the “mourner’s bench” and “sawdust trail.” Yes there were some preacher of the 1840s and 50s America that leaned that way, but they tended to be military chaplains. Fr. Corby of the Irish Brigade comes to mind.
Nor could they claim the great evangelists like Billy Sunday, Charles Spurgeon, Billy Graham. Nor can the claim the Wesley brothers, John and Charles. Nor can they claim the contributions of the blind hymn writer Fanny Crosby who is responsible for over 9,000 hymns known to the Protestant faith.
Don’t think hymn writing is important? think about this, John Wesley said “If you want to change the way a church thinks, change its hymns.” Notice in today’s hymns they have changed “Rise up ye men of God” to “Rise up ye Saints of God.” Subtle gender changes are making their way in.
I don’t see the Christian writer Charles Sheldon amongst Roman Catholic writers or CS Lewis for that matter. Their works have been classics of Christianity for years. My question is: has the Roman Catholic church produced such?
R
RevDrNorth
Guest
I would say that in the English and German speaking world, the greatest modern theologians (say 1800’s to present) are Protestant. Modern biblical scholarship is very heavily dependent on Protestants. Go to a religious book store and you will also discover that the best study bibles by far are Protestant. The NAB is just sad in terms of study notes. Most of the popular spiritual books (solid ones) are Protestant. Most of the good marriage programs and family programs are Protestant (e.g Christian Psychologist James Dobson’s programs that have touched millions of lives for the better).
The Catholic Church is thankfully trying to catch up (eg some of the stuff on EWTN).
I know the Catholic Church does much good in terms of charities but in the disaster stuff I have been to I see the Salvation Army and the Baptist Men’s disaster relief services. Please, I know that the RCC does a great deal of wonderful work but this is another example of practical theology at work.
The Catholic Church is thankfully trying to catch up (eg some of the stuff on EWTN).
I know the Catholic Church does much good in terms of charities but in the disaster stuff I have been to I see the Salvation Army and the Baptist Men’s disaster relief services. Please, I know that the RCC does a great deal of wonderful work but this is another example of practical theology at work.
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