What things are contained in natural law?

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Moore:

No. I’m saying that the homosexual sexual act is no different than two heterosexuals having illicit sex before marriage. It is the Catholic position that two very important things must be in place to make sex licit: (1) there must be marriage, and (2) the sexual act must not be for the sole purpose of pleasure, i.e., it must be open to conception. (1) can be accomplished in some States in the US, for homosexuals. But, (2) cannot.

Your conception of what “good” means is, well, a tad juvenile. Let me ask you a question. If I were in a store buying some item or other, and, instead of giving me back the correct change for the ten dollar bill I gave the clerk, he gives me change from a twenty - if I keep the tiny windfall, am I being good? Am I being bad? Am I being a little bad? Am I being superbly good?

God bless,
jd
I didnt catch the Married part in your first answer. It makes more sense with that clarification. But 1 cannot be accomplished in any state in regards to a valid marriage. period. It changes the definition of marriage.

As for the second part I think the phrase “a tad juvenile” is a tad eliteist and rather rude. It is possible that juvenile could just describe something that is not developed but I think you used it as a way to get a reaction. Lets try to keep this charitable!👍

My point is by not defining “natural law” and just leaving it as “be good” we are delving into moral relativism and not understanding what natural law that is written on the hearts of man really is. We are speaking of the salvation of souls here and how that is attained. I find nothing juvenile in wanting to define the “good” the people speak of when defining natural law. What do you define good as? I define it as Holy.
 
Moore:

No. I’m saying that the homosexual sexual act is no different than two heterosexuals having illicit sex before marriage.
JR, with respect, that statement is incorrect. Homosexual sex acts are substantially different from heterosexual sex. One is termed an abomination in the Bible and the Catholic Catechism states they are acts pof grave depravity and are never to be tolerated.

This is what the Catchism says of homosexuality -
2357: Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
Illicit heterosxual sex is not depraved and is not disordered. Illicit heterosexual sex is a missplaced use of the sexual facutly and it is an offence against Chastity, but it is not an act that is contrary to Natural Law. The argument for sex within the confines of marriage is one held by the Catholic Church according to the teachings of Jesus Christ who raised marriage to the dignity of a sacrament. It was Augustine who argued that marriage was a necessary requirement for the proper functioning of a society. The argument for the Natural law argument against sex outside marriage springs from this view, which supports monogamy.

Cont.d
 
Cont.d

The OP wanted to know what is Natural Law. Some have responded with “that which is written on the hearts of men”, but that is really just a aphorism. A few have mentioned “common sense” and that’s not a bad starting place to begin an examination of what Natural Law actually is. As someone else said, there sometimes seems to be a lack of common sense around these days. That doesn’t mean people don’t have it; it just means that perhaps people ar suspending its use. A lot of government rules and red tape seem to fly in the face of common sense at times and if people are suspending their common sense, then perhaps because they are being forced to and bing conditioned to not using common sense. Those rules and regulations, by the way, are examples of Positive, or man made Law and those Laws sometimes conflict with Natural Law and common sense.

One of the defining aspects of Natural Law is that it needs to be discerned, using our rational intellectual faculties. If people don’t think deeply enough about legal and moral issues, then they are not able to discern Natural Law and they probably don’t perfect their use of common sense. The word “common” in common sense is a great clue. It refers to a sense of things that is common to just about all people. Well, common to those who think a bit, anyway.

It has ben said that God gav Moses the Ten Commandments bcause men had come to forget what was written on their hearts and needed a big reminder. The Ten Commandments are Natural Law moral edicts. They pertain to the nature of man and they give moral dirctions that are required if mankind is to flourish in hasrmony.

If we go back to examining the very foundations of Natural Law reasoning, we can ascertain certain objective facts about the nature of man. We know that under normal circumstances every man wishes to live; to preserve his own life. We also know that man is a social creature and likes to live in community and to cooperate. These aspects of man are universal aqnd mind independent, which means the observations hold true for all men, in all societies and can be recognised by anyone. Hence, they are objective facts about the nature of man. Thn we can deduce that if man is to survive and flourish, he ought to do certain things that will nsure that he flourishes and flourishes in society. Man is also acquisitive by nature and necessity. He needs to acquire the tools and skills to live and look after himself. Therefore, he ought to acquire tools, squioment and shelter if he is to look after himself and to flourish.

Now look at the Ten Commandments again. They make it immoral to do those things which will cause man, any man, to be not able to flourish. Don’t steal his stuff. He needs it to survive. Don’t kill him, because he has the same right to live as you do, because wanting to live is a universal desire and the basis of normative behaviour which springs from his desire to live. Don’t try to steal his spouse either, because that upsets the social order of the society he has established and causes harm to society and to individuals. It is a natural desire and inclination of man to form a family and procreate, so don’t wreck it. Love your neighbour as yourself too, because then you afford him the respect you tourself would like and that is what allows societies to flourish.

That is a simplified version of how Natural Law reasoning is done. From universally recognisable aspects of human nature, we are able to discern certain objective facts upon which to base an objective morality. The right to life; the right to property; the right to free speech; the right to free association are objectively based Natural Law rights which spring from objectively discernable aspects of human nature. Because we recognise that people have a desire to live, just as we do, then the moral edict is we ought not to kill. Because people wish to own property, the moral edict is we ought not to steal. Thus, from the universally recognisable aspects of human nature and of how people generally behave, we derive moral oughts.

Some of the rights of man also carry what may appear as quirky aspects to their practice. For instance, your right to life also carries with it a moral edict that you ought to do all that is right and proper to preserve your own life. That, by the way, is why suicide haas been seen as immoral. However, should someone attack you and threaten your life, you are morally obliged to take whatever action is necessary to preserve your own life. If that means killing the attacker, so be it. So the Natural Law moral edict is we ought not to murder someone else, but if we have to kill them to preserve our own life, then it is not murder and is not an offence against Natural Law morality. Now most people would say, well hey, that’s common sense.

Ntural Law moral reasoning gets a whole lot more complicated when issues such as abortion and contraception are being discussed. Well, it does for those who suspend their common sense, or who have not developed the ability to discern the moral rightness and moral wrongness of an action using Natural Law reasoning. The Catholic Church bases all its teachings on Natural Law moral reasoning and tha answers to the more complex moral problems are in the Catechism. Sometimes one has to delve a little deeper to understand the reasoning behind the moral teachings, but if one does do that delving, a very cogent and coherent line of reasoning becomes apparent, which is based on a true and proper objective understanding of human nature.
 
hu·man·i·ty   [hyoo-man-i-tee or, often, yoo-] Show IPA
noun, plural -ties.
1.
all human beings collectively; the human race; humankind.
2.
the quality or condition of being human; human nature.
3.
the quality of being humane; kindness; benevolence.

Should do? by what standard. Do you see why your answer is too broad? What we are in effect saying is that God judges non believers by natural law that is written on their hearts and then to define natural law you say that it is humanity then you say that humanity is doing what you should do. yet you do not define what people “should do”
I speciified “treat others** as members of our family **because we are all ultimately related by birth”.
 
I speciified “treat others** as members of our family **because we are all ultimately related by birth”.
Look, dont you see how terribly vague that is? When discussing the methods of salvation and how that could possibly be attained outside of the Church through natural law “treat others as family” is hardly an answer to a question. So, in short if you arent Christian and you have any hope of salvation you must treat others as family? What the heck does that mean?
Since no one will give an answer I will post a list and you can all decide if these things are against natural law.
Murder
adultery
stealing
homosexuality
lying
worshiping false gods
 
Cont.d

The OP wanted to know what is Natural Law. Some have responded with “that which is written on the hearts of men”, but that is really just a aphorism. A few have mentioned “common sense” and that’s not a bad starting place to begin an examination of what Natural Law actually is. As someone else said, there sometimes seems to be a lack of common sense around these days. That doesn’t mean people don’t have it; it just means that perhaps people ar suspending its use. A lot of government rules and red tape seem to fly in the face of common sense at times and if people are suspending their common sense, then perhaps because they are being forced to and bing conditioned to not using common sense. Those rules and regulations, by the way, are examples of Positive, or man made Law and those Laws sometimes conflict with Natural Law and common sense.

One of the defining aspects of Natural Law is that it needs to be discerned, using our rational intellectual faculties. If people don’t think deeply enough about legal and moral issues, then they are not able to discern Natural Law and they probably don’t perfect their use of common sense. The word “common” in common sense is a great clue. It refers to a sense of things that is common to just about all people. Well, common to those who think a bit, anyway.

It has ben said that God gav Moses the Ten Commandments bcause men had come to forget what was written on their hearts and needed a big reminder. The Ten Commandments are Natural Law moral edicts. They pertain to the nature of man and they give moral dirctions that are required if mankind is to flourish in hasrmony.

If we go back to examining the very foundations of Natural Law reasoning, we can ascertain certain objective facts about the nature of man. We know that under normal circumstances every man wishes to live; to preserve his own life. We also know that man is a social creature and likes to live in community and to cooperate. These aspects of man are universal aqnd mind independent, which means the observations hold true for all men, in all societies and can be recognised by anyone. Hence, they are objective facts about the nature of man. Thn we can deduce that if man is to survive and flourish, he ought to do certain things that will nsure that he flourishes and flourishes in society. Man is also acquisitive by nature and necessity. He needs to acquire the tools and skills to live and look after himself. Therefore, he ought to acquire tools, squioment and shelter if he is to look after himself and to flourish.

Now look at the Ten Commandments again. They make it immoral to do those things which will cause man, any man, to be not able to flourish. Don’t steal his stuff. He needs it to survive. Don’t kill him, because he has the same right to live as you do, because wanting to live is a universal desire and the basis of normative behaviour which springs from his desire to live. Don’t try to steal his spouse either, because that upsets the social order of the society he has established and causes harm to society and to individuals. It is a natural desire and inclination of man to form a family and procreate, so don’t wreck it. Love your neighbour as yourself too, because then you afford him the respect you tourself would like and that is what allows societies to flourish.

That is a simplified version of how Natural Law reasoning is done. From universally recognisable aspects of human nature, we are able to discern certain objective facts upon which to base an objective morality. The right to life; the right to property; the right to free speech; the right to free association are objectively based Natural Law rights which spring from objectively discernable aspects of human nature. Because we recognise that people have a desire to live, just as we do, then the moral edict is we ought not to kill. Because people wish to own property, the moral edict is we ought not to steal. Thus, from the universally recognisable aspects of human nature and of how people generally behave, we derive moral oughts.

Some of the rights of man also carry what may appear as quirky aspects to their practice. For instance, your right to life also carries with it a moral edict that you ought to do all that is right and proper to preserve your own life. That, by the way, is why suicide haas been seen as immoral. However, should someone attack you and threaten your life, you are morally obliged to take whatever action is necessary to preserve your own life. If that means killing the attacker, so be it. So the Natural Law moral edict is we ought not to murder someone else, but if we have to kill them to preserve our own life, then it is not murder and is not an offence against Natural Law morality. Now most people would say, well hey, that’s common sense.

Ntural Law moral reasoning gets a whole lot more complicated when issues such as abortion and contraception are being discussed. Well, it does for those who suspend their common sense, or who have not developed the ability to discern the moral rightness and moral wrongness of an action using Natural Law reasoning. The Catholic Church bases all its teachings on Natural Law moral reasoning and tha answers to the more complex moral problems are in the Catechism. Sometimes one has to delve a little deeper to understand the reasoning behind the moral teachings, but if one does do that delving, a very cogent and coherent line of reasoning becomes apparent, which is based on a true and proper objective understanding of human nature.
This is good info but I guess I just am not understanding why natural law could get complicated. If it is written on our hearts and EVERY person will be judged on it why could it be something that people could decipher differently. You either follow natural law or break it. Right?
 
I totally agree with this and would even take it one step further. Since God has written moral law onto the hearts of men then not even the uneducated non free world could rightly claim invincible ignorance. If it is written on the human heart that murder and stealing is wrong then sacrificing a virgin to a false god would violate natural law. If stealing is wrong then stealing a spear from a fellow tribesman would also be a violation of natural law. Ultimately I find it very hard to be saved WITH Jesus (narrow gate, wide gate) I cant imagine the enormity of being saved without recourse to the sacraments or the Gospel. One would almost have to be as sinless as Mary.
Moore:

Not really. Love God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit with your heart, mind, and soul - and, love your neighbor as yourself. Figure out a way to accomplish these little things for one puny week. Then come back and tell us how hard it is to be saved.

This takes a bit of concentration. It takes a separation from everyday distraction. It gets easier each day. You have a thing going for you, though, you have already been chosen. Now, it’s a matter of obtaining more grace.

Do this: commit to saying two Our Fathers, Two Hail Marys, and two Glory Be’s, each day. Commit to it for one week, besides going to Church and trying to be a really decent person. You may find that you’ll want to renew your commitment. Then talk to us further. You have an entire community behind you.

God bless,
jd
 
I didnt catch the Married part in your first answer. It makes more sense with that clarification. But 1 cannot be accomplished in any state in regards to a valid marriage. period. It changes the definition of marriage.
Moore:

Agreed.
As for the second part I think the phrase “a tad juvenile” is a tad eliteist and rather rude. It is possible that juvenile could just describe something that is not developed but I think you used it as a way to get a reaction. Lets try to keep this charitable!👍
It did get you to think - for yourself. Now, everyone can tell that you have your thinking cap firmly on your head. Bravo! 👍 (No disparagement of any kind intended.)
My point is by not defining “natural law” and just leaving it as “be good” we are delving into moral relativism and not understanding what natural law that is written on the hearts of man really is.
A definition for “natural law” may seem as though it should be easy. But, it’s not. In order to properly enunciate “natural law” one must go through its history; our knowledge of it; the content of it; levels of knowledge of it; apparent exceptions; and whether it is absolute or relative, among other things. That’s all very difficult to do in a forum with limitations (as it must).

Your questions are really the best way to go about knowing the natural law through such a methodology.
We are speaking of the salvation of souls here and how that is attained. I find nothing juvenile in wanting to define the “good” the people speak of when defining natural law. What do you define good as? I define it as Holy.
Pretty good! 👍

But, do you really believe that God wants us to forsake all else for the sole sake of holiness? Do you think He’d want us to forsake the practice of “loving our neighbor?” Do you think He’d want us to forsake our responsibilities to family and livelihood? It is important to remember that there is nothing that we do that is not caused by God - except for sin. Otherwise, nothing. Feel yourself being directed by God. Throw off any arrogance you might have that thinks it is you that is doing whatever you find yourself doing. If God is First Cause, and we are merely second causes, wouldn’t that be the way it would work?

God bless,
jd
 
JR, with respect, that statement is incorrect. Homosexual sex acts are substantially different from heterosexual sex. One is termed an abomination in the Bible and the Catholic Catechism states they are acts pof grave depravity and are never to be tolerated.
John:

But here, we are being “technical.” What you say is true, but, one must not think that the Catechism is speaking directly to the “act,” in and of itself. We must also remember all that is associated with it. It is the entirety of it that makes it an “abomination.” Do you think that the sin of homosexual fornication is that muich graver a sin than the act of heterosexual fornication? Do you think that its confession to a Priest and a perfect act of contrition can absolve one but not the other? One might require a bit more satisfaction to lessen temporal punishment after the sin(s) is/are forgiven, but there are grades in all categories of sin.
This is what the Catchism says of homosexuality -
Illicit heterosxual sex is not depraved and is not disordered. Illicit heterosexual sex is a missplaced use of the sexual facutly and it is an offence against Chastity, but it is not an act that is contrary to Natural Law. The argument for sex within the confines of marriage is one held by the Catholic Church according to the teachings of Jesus Christ who raised marriage to the dignity of a sacrament. It was Augustine who argued that marriage was a necessary requirement for the proper functioning of a society. The argument for the Natural law argument against sex outside marriage springs from this view, which supports monogamy.
Do you think that homosexual sexual behavior is outside of the constrictions of the natural law? It is excellent that St. Augustine argued for marriage. but, do you think that everyone else was oblivious to its necessity to the proper functioning of society - until St. Augustine mentioned it?

God bless,
jd
 
Cont.d

The OP wanted to know what is Natural Law. Some have responded with “that which is written on the hearts of men”, but that is really just a aphorism. A few have mentioned “common sense” and that’s not a bad starting place to begin an examination of what Natural Law actually is. As someone else said, there sometimes seems to be a lack of common sense around these days. That doesn’t mean people don’t have it; it just means that perhaps people are suspending its use. A lot of government rules and red tape seem to fly in the face of common sense at times and if people are suspending their common sense, then perhaps because they are being forced to and bing conditioned to not using common sense. Those rules and regulations, by the way, are examples of Positive, or man made Law and those Laws sometimes conflict with Natural Law and common sense.

One of the defining aspects of Natural Law is that it needs to be discerned, using our rational intellectual faculties. If people don’t think deeply enough about legal and moral issues, then they are not able to discern Natural Law and they probably don’t perfect their use of common sense. The word “common” in common sense is a great clue. It refers to a sense of things that is common to just about all people. Well, common to those who think a bit, anyway.

It has been said that God gave Moses the Ten Commandments because men had come to forget what was written on their hearts and needed a big reminder. The Ten Commandments are Natural Law moral edicts. They pertain to the nature of man and they give moral directions that are required if mankind is to flourish in harmony.

If we go back to examining the very foundations of Natural Law reasoning, we can ascertain certain objective facts about the nature of man. We know that under normal circumstances every man wishes to live; to preserve his own life. We also know that man is a social creature and likes to live in community and to cooperate. These aspects of man are universal and mind independent, which means the observations hold true for all men, in all societies and can be recognised by anyone. Hence, they are objective facts about the nature of man. Then we can deduce that if man is to survive and flourish, he ought to do certain things that will insure that he flourishes and flourishes in society. Man is also acquisitive by nature and necessity. He needs to acquire the tools and skills to live and look after himself. Therefore, he ought to acquire tools, squioment and shelter if he is to look after himself and to flourish.

Now look at the Ten Commandments again. They make it immoral to do those things which will cause man, any man, to be not able to flourish. Don’t steal his stuff. He needs it to survive. Don’t kill him, because he has the same right to live as you do, because wanting to live is a universal desire and the basis of normative behaviour which springs from his desire to live. Don’t try to steal his spouse either, because that upsets the social order of the society he has established and causes harm to society and to individuals. It is a natural desire and inclination of man to form a family and procreate, so don’t wreck it. Love your neighbour as yourself too, because then you afford him the respect you yourself would like and that is what allows societies to flourish.

That is a simplified version of how Natural Law reasoning is done. From universally recognisable aspects of human nature, we are able to discern certain objective facts upon which to base an objective morality. The right to life; the right to property; the right to free speech; the right to free association are objectively based Natural Law rights which spring from objectively discernible aspects of human nature. Because we recognise that people have a desire to live, just as we do, then the moral edict is we ought not to kill. Because people wish to own property, the moral edict is we ought not to steal. Thus, from the universally recognisable aspects of human nature and of how people generally behave, we derive moral oughts.

Some of the rights of man also carry what may appear as quirky aspects to their practice. For instance, your right to life also carries with it a moral edict that you ought to do all that is right and proper to preserve your own life. That, by the way, is why suicide has been seen as immoral. However, should someone attack you and threaten your life, you are morally obliged to take whatever action is necessary to preserve your own life. If that means killing the attacker, so be it. So the Natural Law moral edict is we ought not to murder someone else, but if we have to kill them to preserve our own life, then it is not murder and is not an offense against Natural Law morality. Now most people would say, well hey, that’s common sense.

Natural Law moral reasoning gets a whole lot more complicated when issues such as abortion and contraception are being discussed. Well, it does for those who suspend their common sense, or who have not developed the ability to discern the moral rightness and moral wrongness of an action using Natural Law reasoning. The Catholic Church bases all its teachings on Natural Law moral reasoning and the answers to the more complex moral problems are in the Catechism. Sometimes one has to delve a little deeper to understand the reasoning behind the moral teachings, but if one does do that delving, a very cogent and coherent line of reasoning becomes apparent, which is based on a true and proper objective understanding of human nature.
John:

Well said. I thank you for putting it together succinctly. I hoped that someone would undertake the task! 👍

Moore, what questions do you have, for now we can get into the details.

God bless John,
jd
 
Moore:

Agreed.

It did get you to think - for yourself. Now, everyone can tell that you have your thinking cap firmly on your head. Bravo! 👍 (No disparagement of any kind intended.)

A definition for “natural law” may seem as though it should be easy. But, it’s not. In order to properly enunciate “natural law” one must go through its history; our knowledge of it; the content of it; levels of knowledge of it; apparent exceptions; and whether it is absolute or relative, among other things. That’s all very difficult to do in a forum with limitations (as it must).

Your questions are really the best way to go about knowing the natural law through such a methodology.

Pretty good! 👍

But, do you really believe that God wants us to forsake all else for the sole sake of holiness? Do you think He’d want us to forsake the practice of “loving our neighbor?” Do you think He’d want us to forsake our responsibilities to family and livelihood? It is important to remember that there is nothing that we do that is not caused by God - except for sin. Otherwise, nothing. Feel yourself being directed by God. Throw off any arrogance you might have that thinks it is you that is doing whatever you find yourself doing. If God is First Cause, and we are merely second causes, wouldn’t that be the way it would work?

God bless,
jd
I honestly think you are misunderstanding my entire question and your answers are getting increasingly odd. I must not have been clear enough in my posts. I apologize. If you go back and re- read what I am asking and still need clarification I would be happy to provide.
Basically I am having trouble with the idea of salvation OUTSIDE the normative of Christian faith in regards to natural law. How can one be saved by natural law if we cannot even have an absolute definition of what that law is?
 
JR, with respect, that statement is incorrect. Homosexual sex acts are substantially different from heterosexual sex. One is termed an abomination in the Bible and the Catholic Catechism states they are acts pof grave depravity and are never to be tolerated.

This is what the Catchism says of homosexuality -
Illicit heterosxual sex is not depraved and is not disordered. Illicit heterosexual sex is a missplaced use of the sexual facutly and it is an offence against Chastity, but it is not an act that is contrary to Natural Law. The argument for sex within the confines of marriage is one held by the Catholic Church according to the teachings of Jesus Christ who raised marriage to the dignity of a sacrament. It was Augustine who argued that marriage was a necessary requirement for the proper functioning of a society. The argument for the Natural law argument against sex outside marriage springs from this view, which supports monogamy.

Cont.d
I remember a cartoon once where a teenage boy was asking his grandpa what he and grandma used to practice safe sex. Grandpa’s answer: “A Marriage License!”🙂
 
Look, dont you see how terribly vague that is? When discussing the methods of salvation and how that could possibly be attained outside of the Church through natural law “treat others as family” is hardly an answer to a question. So, in short if you arent Christian and you have any hope of salvation you must treat others as family? What the heck does that mean?
There is nothing about vague about living as a family unless you regard the activities you list as a part of **normal, happy **family life:
Since no one will give an answer I will post a list and you can all decide if these things are against natural law.
Murder
adultery
stealing
homosexuality
lying
I omit worshipping false gods because it would confuse the issue - although the worship of self, money, sex and power do destroy families…
 
There is nothing about vague about living as a family unless you regard the activities you list as a part of **normal, happy **family life:

I omit worshipping false gods because it would confuse the issue - although the worship of self, money, sex and power do destroy families…
The problem is that there is no more “normal”
What may be normal for you has been perverted by our society.
And being happy has absolutely nothing to do with holiness.

So one has to follow natural law to be saved outside of Christianity. But we cannot pin down what that law consists of or how one could follow it. Basically what I am saying is that it appears to me that the law of the old and new covenants ARE natural law. So one who was in ignorance of Christianity would still have to live by the bounds of the written law to be saved and only Mary and a few other saints have even been said to have done that. So while I can accept that God can save however he wants and I accept that the Church is correct in the teaching of invincible ignorance I do not understand how that it is possible that one could ever be saved outside of the sacraments. I think that when we blurr the lines of what natural law is and how one is saved and even if God WILL save anyone outside of the normative way then we do others a HUGE disservice and hollowly excuse away our culpability or own need to evangelize.
 
The problem is that there is no more “normal”
“perverted” implies a norm and proper state of affairs!
And being happy has absolutely nothing to do with holiness.
It has everything to do with holiness if we are to judge by the teachings of religion, the Greek concept of Nemesis, the Indian doctrine of Karma and the logical implications of egoism and criminality.
So one has to follow natural law to be saved outside of Christianity. But we cannot pin down what that law consists of or how one could follow it. Basically what I am saying is that it appears to me that the law of the old and new covenants ARE natural law. So one who was in ignorance of Christianity would still have to live by the bounds of the written law to be saved and only Mary and a few other saints have even been said to have done that. So while I can accept that God can save however he wants and I accept that the Church is correct in the teaching of invincible ignorance I do not understand how that it is possible that one could ever be saved outside of the sacraments. I think that when we blurr the lines of what natural law is and how one is saved and even if God WILL save anyone outside of the normative way then we do others a HUGE disservice and hollowly excuse away our culpability or own need to evangelize.
I don’t believe God is ruled by any rules or laws we have been given or thought to have been given…
 
“perverted” implies a norm and proper state of affairs!
of course. From our perspective norm is norm. Truth is Truth but some want to water it down.
It has everything to do with holiness if we are to judge by the teachings of religion, the Greek concept of Nemesis, the Indian doctrine of Karma and the logical implications of egoism and criminality.
But we arent talking about those things. Why would they even enter into the conversation? We are talking about holiness that we are called to by the one true God.
I don’t believe God is ruled by any rules or laws we have been given or thought to have been given…
That is a nice little credo but it has nothing to do with anything I said. Of course God is not ruled by laws. What do you mean by laws we have thought to have been given? Which laws do you question we have been given?
 
I think many people want to go off on tangents that are not relevant.

If we accept the Church’s teaching on salvation based on ignorance and natural law that we are told is written on the hearts of men then we should probably understand what natural law is. Just “be nice” isnt an intellectually solid answer.

So, again…
What is natural law? What is contained in it? If it is broken outside the bounds of Christianity how is it reconciled to God?
 
But we arent talking about those things. Why would they even enter into the conversation? We are talking about holiness that we are called to by the one true God.
This is a Philosophy forum. You are presupposing the existence of God - and one particular interpretation of God.
That is a nice little credo but it has nothing to do with anything I said. Of course God is not ruled by laws. What do you mean by laws we have thought to have been given? Which laws do you question we have been given?
How do you determine which laws have been given by God?
 
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