What Time of Day was Matins Traditionally Prayed?

[TimothyH]

Help me out here…

When was Matins traditionally prayed? Before dawn? 4:00 AM?

I know that it is now the Office of Readings and can be prayed at any time of the day but my question is specific to the old liturgy, pre 1962.

Thanks!

-Tim-

 

[SonCatcher]

I don’t think Matins are assigned to a specific time but generally would be after Lauds and before Terce. Lauds are similarly not assigned a specific time (other than “before Matins”) but Terce infers 9AM by its name.

 

[OraLabora]

It depends on how “traditional” you want to get. The Rule of St. Benedict states:

In the winter time,
that is from the Calends of November until Easter,
the brothers shall rise
at what is calculated to be the eighth hour of the night,
so that they may sleep somewhat longer than half the night
and rise with their rest completed.
And the time that remains after the Night Office
should be spent in study
by those brothers who need a better knowledge of the Psalter
or the lessons.

From Easter to the aforesaid Calends of November,
the hour of rising should be so arranged that the Morning Office,
which is to be said at daybreak,
will follow the Night Office after a very short interval,
during which they may go out for the necessities of nature.

So there wasn’t really a fixed time as the day was somewhat elastic, depending on the season and number of hours of daylight. If sunset is at 6 pm, the eighth hour would be 2 am.

In current practice in monasteries, locally and in France here are a few examples:

Benedictine men (Solesmes congregation), 5 am and 5:30 am, and anticipated the evening before
Benedictine women in Canada (Solesmes congregation): anticipated evening before
Cistercians (both strict and common observance) 4 am
Carthusians: midnight

I believe for the pre-1962 office, for diocesan clergy, an indult allowed Vigils to be said by anticipation the evening before.

 

[Dpoc41]

taken from The Little Office of Our Lady; a treatise theoretical, practical, and exegetical (1903) download free here

The Eton statutes prescribes that the scholars, after rising
and making their beds, should say the Matins of our Blessed Lady after " Sarum use." Henry VI., the munificent founder of the College, had a special devotion to the Office, which he said every day. Cardinal Fisher, in his funeral sermon on the Countess of Richmond, mother of Henry VII., says: " First in prayer every day at her uprising, which commonly was not long after five of the clock, she began certain devotions ; and so after them with one of her gentlewomen, the Matins of our Lady," besides the greater Office which she said with her
chaplain, and heard four or five masses.

 

[Bookcat]

It varied. And varies still.

Some prayed around I think 4am.

Others like the Carthusians (my favorite Order) pray Matins around Midnight (the Carthusians do so for three hours…)

 

[TimothyH]

OK, thats what I thought.

Three… four… five… O’Clock AM. Early, before Mass, before Lauds, before dawn. That’s what I thought. I figure it is the same sorta deal as Cistercian “Vigils” at 4:00 AM.

“Somewhat longer than half the night” aint gonna cut it for a guy who stays up on CAF till 11:10 PM.

necessities of nature… yes, mustn’t forget that. Gotta love St. Benedict. In another life I would be a Cistercian.

Thanks!

-Tim-

 

[Bookcat]

OK, thats what I thought.

Three… four… five… O’Clock AM. Early, before Mass, before Lauds, before dawn. That’s what I thought. I figure it is the same sorta deal as Cistercian “Vigils” at 4:00 AM.

“Somewhat longer than half the night” aint gonna cut it for a guy who stays up on CAF till 11:10 PM.

necessities of nature… yes, mustn’t forget that. Gotta love St. Benedict. In another life I would be a Cistercian.

Thanks!

-Tim-

Carthusians (my favorite Order) pray Matins around Midnight (the Carthusians do so for three hours…(granted it is not just Matins…)

chartreux.org/en/monks/carthusian-day.php

 

[corsair]

I will immediately, upon rising in the early morning, say Matins followed by Lauds. Then at 6:00am Prime with Terce at 9:00am. Sext at noon, then None at 3:00pm. Vesper, I try to say before 5:00pm finishing around 10:00pm with Compline. (its the prayers for the end of day).

Its getting easier. The tough set of prayers for me is Matins, cause I have trouble getting up that early. I did find that there was permission given to say Matins late at night (11 - 11:30pm).

But hey, I’m just laity. However, I still try to do my best.

 

[TrueLight]

I will immediately, upon rising in the early morning, say Matins followed by Lauds. Then at 6:00am Prime with Terce at 9:00am. Sext at noon, then None at 3:00pm. Vesper, I try to say before 5:00pm finishing around 10:00pm with Compline. (its the prayers for the end of day).

Its getting easier. The tough set of prayers for me is Matins, cause I have trouble getting up that early. I did find that there was permission given to say Matins late at night (11 - 11:30pm).

But hey, I’m just laity. However, I still try to do my best.

Wow Corsair!

What time do you get up for Matins? Do you pray the traditional roman breviary in Latin?

 

[OraLabora]

Wow Corsair!

What time do you get up for Matins? Do you pray the traditional roman breviary in Latin?

I can’t speak for Corsair, but if he does Prime he’s either praying the pre-1962 Roman Breviary (I have trouble calling it “traditional”, because it only dates to 1910), or the traditional Benedictine breviary (that one is “traditional”: it is 1500 years old!).

In my case I get up at 5:45 for Vigils (Matins, in reality, was Vigils followed by Lauds). I get up, get the water boiling for my wife’s tea, empty the dishwasher, and pray Vigils at about 5:55 am, chanted recto-tono. It takes me about 25 min. Then I have a quick breakfast, shower, and pray Lauds at about 6:55. That takes me until about 7:20. At 7:25 I am in my car on my way to work (which takes me typically 1h20). If traffic isn’t too bad, and I get into work about 10 min. before 9 am (I start work at 9), I’ll pray Terce at that point. If not I’ll combine it with Sext at 11:45. At 3:00 pm I’ll pray None. At approx. 6:30 pm (or whenever I get home, depends on traffic), I’ll pray Vespers and Compline I usually pray in bed at 9:15-9:30 pm, though on Sundays (after 1st and 2nd Vespers) I try to chant Compline in my oratory.

I use a post-Vatican II Benedictine breviary (same as my community). I chant the Office in French except: Lauds and Vespers on weeks 1 and 3 in Latin Gregorian chant, and Sunday compline in Latin Gregorian chant. This breviary does the whole psalter in 1 week, though I use one of the licit options to pray Vigils over 2 weeks.

This is my oratory:

 

[Jesus_123]

Help me out here…

When was Matins traditionally prayed? Before dawn? 4:00 AM?

I know that it is now the Office of Readings and can be prayed at any time of the day but my question is specific to the old liturgy, pre 1962.

Thanks!

-Tim-

+**A little history of terminology . . . **

Prior to the Blessed Holy St. Benedict and his Holy Rule of St. Benedict for Monasteries . . . there was a wide and great array of varying methods of daily and night prayers being said both in cathedrals and churches and in monasteries for the religious . . . after St. Constantine the Great’s conversion (fourth century) . . . these prayer times . . . (morning, evening, and the middle of the night) . . . became common in all the cathedrals throughout the empire . . . in the West these services came to be called . . . Matins, Vespers, and Vigils . . .

Eventually the morning service . . . most often called “Matins” . . . in early sources often came to be called “Lauds” instead. For an excellent scholarly history of the Liturgy of the Hours please see the link below:

:compcoff: Link: yale.edu/adhoc/research_resources/liturgy/hours.html

Later the **Blessed St. Benedict of Nursia **(sixth century). . . **the Father *(Patriarch) ***of Western Monasticism . . . Patron Saint of Europe . . . laid out the specific guidelines for the celebration of the "Work of God" or “Opus Dei” . . . which we now know as the Liturgy of the Hours/Divine Office . . . to this day . . . The Holy Rule of St. Benedict is the most common and influential Rule used by monasteries and monks, more than 1500 years after its writing . . . and St. Benedict’s Order of St. Benedict (O.S.B.) . . . the Benedictines . . . are renown as the servants of our **Wonderful Triune God **for the evangelization of Europe . . . and . . . even today those religious following the Holy Rule of St. Benedict comprise the largest order of religious in Western Christianity.

"As the Prophet saith: ‘Seven times a day I have given praise to Thee’ (Psalm 118[119]:164), this sacred sevenfold number will be fulfilled by us in this wise if we perform the duties of our service at the time of Lauds, Prime, Terce, Sext, None, Vespers, and Compline because it was of these day hours that he hath said: “Seven times a day I have given praise to Thee” (Ps 118[119]:164). For the same Prophet saith of the night watches: **“At midnight I arose to confess to Thee” (Ps 118[119]:62)."

​

- The Holy Rule of St. Benedict
Chapter 16 **​

:compcoff: Link: osb.org/

The Holy Rule of St. Benedict in its entirety . . . including its liturgical system of prayers . . . the **Night Office **and the Daytime Office . . . and devout use of the Book of Psalms in Sacred :bible1: Scripture . . . is meant for every class of mind and every degree of learning . . . it is written and framed not only to instruct and bless the educated and for souls advanced in perfection . . . but it organizes and directs a complete life which is adapted for simple folk and for sinners seeking salvation . . . for the observance of the Commandments and for the beginnings of goodness. "We have written this Rule", writes St. Benedict, “that by observing it in monasteries, we may shew ourselves to have some degree of goodness in life and a beginning of holiness.” Below is a link re the Benedictine Order:

:compcoff: Link: newadvent.org/cathen/02443a.htm

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Sweet Jesus our Wonderful Lord+
. . . thank you Blessed Virgin Mary our Mother+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+
. . . thank you Blessed Holy St. Benedict+​

 

[TrueLight]

I can’t speak for Corsair, but if he does Prime he’s either praying the pre-1962 Roman Breviary (I have trouble calling it “traditional”, because it only dates to 1910), or the traditional Benedictine breviary (that one is “traditional”: it is 1500 years old!).

In my case I get up at 5:45 for Vigils (Matins, in reality, was Vigils followed by Lauds). I get up, get the water boiling for my wife’s tea, empty the dishwasher, and pray Vigils at about 5:55 am, chanted recto-tono. It takes me about 25 min. Then I have a quick breakfast, shower, and pray Lauds at about 6:55. That takes me until about 7:20. At 7:25 I am in my car on my way to work (which takes me typically 1h20). If traffic isn’t too bad, and I get into work about 10 min. before 9 am (I start work at 9), I’ll pray Terce at that point. If not I’ll combine it with Sext at 11:45. At 3:00 pm I’ll pray None. At approx. 6:30 pm (or whenever I get home, depends on traffic), I’ll pray Vespers and Compline I usually pray in bed at 9:15-9:30 pm, though on Sundays (after 1st and 2nd Vespers) I try to chant Compline in my oratory.

Wow. I want to be like you when I grow up.

How do you pray None while at work?

Is the traditional Benedictine breviary online? Is the compline in this video from the traditional, pre Vat II Benedictine breviary?

By the way, nice touch with the wife’s tea.

 

[OraLabora]

Wow. I want to be like you when I grow up.

How do you pray None while at work?

Is the traditional Benedictine breviary online? Is the compline in this video from the traditional, pre Vat II Benedictine breviary?

By the way, nice touch with the wife’s tea.

The Divine Office is my sanity. I had to come pretty close to hitting rock bottom for that to be so, so you maybe don’t want to be like me

None? I just quietly open my breviary and read it, but I heard recently there’s a prayer room in our office building so I may check it out.

Yes that appears to be Compline from the Monastic breviary. It hasn’t changed much post-Vatican II for those monasteries still using St. Benedict’s schema, the collects and readings are different, and some monasteries add the Nunc Dimittis and responsory, but some such as St. Wandrille and Solesmes in France do not even though they use the OF Mass and post-Vatican II version of the Monastic Divine Office.

 

[TrueLight]

Corsair and OraLabora, Matins (Mautinum, Trident 1570 in the Traditional Roman Breviary) sure is long.

 

[corsair]

I’ve never really timed it but I start Matins around 4:45 am. Things just sort of flow through Prime and I’m eating breakfast by 6:30am.

It has not been easy getting to this point. I started this with a 1983 version of the Little Office (all english) but got quickly decided that that was not what I was looking for. So next I got the book of Christian Prayer. That didn’t work for me either. Next was a lengthy stop with a 1904 edition of the Little Office of the BVM. (latin by english)

As my latin is weak this seemed a great teaching tool and it is. This book helped me adjust to the hours schedule. Believe me Matins is really tough for me. Praying it at night seems to be making the Hours disjointed for me so I drag my old body out of bed early.
My wife thinks I’m a “nut”. And she may be right.

Once the latin began to “come back” to me, it was a graduation to the Divine Office (with the help of a priest) This priest has helped me with the rituals. I still can’t chant worth a darn. Maybe with time I can learn to do this correctly.

This whole process has been a great spiritual experience for me.

 

[OraLabora]

Corsair and OraLabora, Matins (Mautinum, Trident 1570 in the Traditional Roman Breviary) sure is long.

Monastic Vigils is 12 psalms and two long readings (Biblical and patristic) on weekdays, with responsories after the readings. That’s in the current breviary (and the traditional one too dating back to St. Benedict’s time). On Sundays and feasts, there’s an additional 3 OT canticles, the Gospel reading, the Te Decet Laus, a homily or a second patristic reading, the Te Deum, and the collect and conclusion.

At our abbey we use Monastic Schema B which is two nocturnes of 3 psalms each plus all the readings and canticles above. Chanted, on Sundays, takes just over an hour. Lauds is about 35 min.

In my case, I do Monastic Schema B vigils over two weeks, a licit option. It takes me about 25-30 min on weekdays. Lauds and Vespers are 25 min. each chanted, the minor hours about 10 min. each, and Compline is about 10 min if recited, 15 if chanted.

As I live 60 miles from my office, and have to commute to it 4 days a week, which takes me 1h15-1h30 each way depending on traffic, the traditional Benedictine Office is out of the question for me. I tried it and it’s too long. On the other hand the 4-week LOTH leaves me hungry and of course is not well-grounded in Benedictine tradition. The monks at our abbey seem to have found the right balance with Schema B which still respects the Rule of St. Benedict.

The 1910 and 1970 simplifications of the Divine Office were intended for the benefit of busy diocesan clergy. Those called to singing the Office in choir of course, have the benefit of a regular conventual life.

 

[TimothyH]

In my case I get up at 5:45 for Vigils (Matins, in reality, was Vigils followed by Lauds). I get up, get the water boiling for my wife’s tea, empty the dishwasher, and pray Vigils at about 5:55 am, chanted recto-tono. It takes me about 25 min. Then I have a quick breakfast, shower, and pray Lauds at about 6:55.

I’m on a surprisingly close schedule without the prayers - up at 5:50, boil water for oatmeal, empty the dishwasher (doesn’t everyone do that?), shower and out the door at 6:50 to drive the kids to school, in the adoration chappel at ~8:00 AM.

Lately I have been praying Matins and Lauds from the Little Office of BVM together at 8:00 AM in the adoration chapel. Your schedule gives me some ideas. Thanks.

This is the first time I have done anything with the pre-62 version. This my first foray into anything other than the latest version of LoTH.

-Tim-

 

[TrueLight]

So today, I did an experiment to see if I could in fact pray more than one our in the Divine Office.

This is what I did:

The below are all approximate times:

– around 5:45 AM I prayed Laudes and Prime
– around 9 AM I prayed Terce
– around 12:05 I prayed Sexta
– around 3 while on the train prayed None
– around 7 PM I prayed Vespers while commuting.
– around 9:15 PM I prayed compline

Now, I know I will not always have this time, but what I did learn is that the shorter prayers like None and Sexta, I can totally do during a break at work.

I am also starting to see that I can do Compline regularly.

I can maybe do Laudes if I wake up early.

We shall see.

 

[TheMc]

So today, I did an experiment to see if I could in fact pray more than one our in the Divine Office.

This is what I did:

The below are all approximate times:

– around 5:45 AM I prayed Laudes and Prime
– around 9 AM I prayed Terce
– around 12:05 I prayed Sexta
– around 3 while on the train prayed None
– around 7 PM I prayed Vespers while commuting.
– around 9:15 PM I prayed compline

Now, I know I will not always have this time, but what I did learn is that the shorter prayers like None and Sexta, I can totally do during a break at work.

I am also starting to see that I can do Compline regularly.

I can maybe do Laudes if I wake up early.

We shall see.

OF or EF?

 

[TheMc]

OF or EF?

Duh… I guess it would be hard to pray prime in the OF, considering it doesn’t exist.