What time on Saturday

[Matthew_Holford]

[A thread on what is the earliest time on Saturday we can fulfill our Sunday Mass obligation.]

To prevent the thread “Holy days of obligation: Must the readings be for the feast for the obligation to be met?” being closed because we’ve gone off topic I’ve started this new thread based on the issue we got talking about.

I think I’m taking us off topic here, but so as not to “avoid the issue” I’ll just say that I’m trying to make a distinction between
a an interpretation of the Church’s laws made by a bishop
b the idea that the bishop is competent to decide for himself whatever time he chooses

It’s the “b” that I encounter sometimes here on CAF. It’s a subtle (in this case) difference between interpreting the law and outright making the law. It is not up to the bishop to “decide” when the Mass can begin, but it is up to the bishop to “interpret” when it can begin.

If the bishop cannot choose then who does? Let’s take a practical example. If I go to a Wedding Mass late on Saturday afternoon how do I know if I’ve fulfilled the obligation for Sunday? I’ve made the question very personal because it’s an issue that could face me. There’s no concept, as far as I’m aware, here in England that if that Mass is at or after 4 p.m. it counts. My own diocesan bishop’s personal office couldn’t even tell me what time counts. So how do I know? Of course I can play safe and always go on Sunday itself.

In the above example I just used a wedding as an example. I’m aware that the actual celebration makes no difference. If you prefer it could have been an Ordination Mass or a Funeral Mass.

Evidently, I can’t ask you to decide directly for my own personal circumstances. But, if you say that a bishop making this decision is legislating where he can’t then who does decide? How can any of us be certain that we’ve fulfilled an holy day of obligation’s precept if we went to Mass on the prior evening?

Here’s a link to the other thread.

 

[jmcrae]

Evidently, I can’t ask you to decide directly for my own personal circumstances. But, if you say that a bishop making this decision is legislating where he can’t then who does decide? How can any of us be certain that we’ve fulfilled an holy day of obligation’s precept if we went to Mass on the prior evening?

While the Vatican certainly sets the norm for this (it would not be possible for you to fulfill your Sunday obligation at a Mass that took place before noon on Saturday, for example) the final decision certainly is the Bishop’s, and what he says, goes (unless he is saying that you could go to Mass on Saturday at 6:00 am and fulfill your obligation, of course).

(I think we also need to be a little more trusting of our Bishops; they do, in fact, take classes to do their job, and they do have to get good grades - it’s not a make-work project for the unemployable.)

 

[Matthew_Holford]

While the Vatican certainly sets the norm for this (it would not be possible for you to fulfill your Sunday obligation at a Mass that took place before noon on Saturday, for example) the final decision certainly is the Bishop’s, and what he says, goes (unless he is saying that you could go to Mass on Saturday at 6:00 am and fulfill your obligation, of course).

(I think we also need to be a little more trusting of our Bishops; they do, in fact, take classes to do their job, and they do have to get good grades - it’s not a make-work project for the unemployable.)

What is the norm set by the Vatican?

I am not saying that the bishops cannot do this. It is a fellow poster who’s making that point.

 

[jmcrae]

What is the norm set by the Vatican?

“Tardes” which can be translated in English as either “afternoon” or “evening,” which definitely rules out the morning. The final details are up to the local Bishops. I think in my Diocese, the earliest Vigil Masses can take place after 4:00 pm (which our priests variously understand to mean anything from one minute after 4:00 pm, to no earlier than 5:00 pm).

The Bishop himself never schedules Mass between 4:00 pm and 5:00 pm.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

“Tardes” which can be translated in English as either “afternoon” or “evening,” which definitely rules out the morning. The final details are up to the local Bishops. I think in my Diocese, the earliest Vigil Masses can take place after 4:00 pm (which our priests variously understand to mean anything from one minute after 4:00 pm, to no earlier than 5:00 pm).

The Bishop himself never schedules Mass between 4:00 pm and 5:00 pm.

It’s interesting to hear where a bishop has done this. It seems logical that if the Holy See hasn’t given a definitive time then it’s up to local bishops. I’m sure the relevant canon uses “vespere” so it definitely has to be evening. As far as I’m aware the Holy See hasn’t said “vespere”/evening begins at … So, it needs local decisions.

 

[FrDavid96]

[A thread on what is the earliest time on Saturday we can fulfill our Sunday Mass obligation.]

To prevent the thread “Holy days of obligation: Must the readings be for the feast for the obligation to be met?” being closed because we’ve gone off topic I’ve started this new thread based on the issue we got talking about.

If the bishop cannot choose then who does? Let’s take a practical example. If I go to a Wedding Mass late on Saturday afternoon how do I know if I’ve fulfilled the obligation for Sunday? I’ve made the question very personal because it’s an issue that could face me. There’s no concept, as far as I’m aware, here in England that if that Mass is at or after 4 p.m. it counts. My own diocesan bishop’s personal office couldn’t even tell me what time counts. So how do I know? Of course I can play safe and always go on Sunday itself.

In the above example I just used a wedding as an example. I’m aware that the actual celebration makes no difference. If you prefer it could have been an Ordination Mass or a Funeral Mass.

Evidently, I can’t ask you to decide directly for my own personal circumstances. But, if you say that a bishop making this decision is legislating where he can’t then who does decide? How can any of us be certain that we’ve fulfilled an holy day of obligation’s precept if we went to Mass on the prior evening?

Here’s a link to the other thread.

Here’s what I meant earlier.

If your own bishop (or his vicar) tells you that he has interpreted the Church’s law to mean a certain time of day, then I say you should trust his interpretation. I’d say the same to any other poster with a similar scenario. Trust the bishop’s interpretation.

What I would like to clarify is that I am not saying that any particular bishop is attempting to legislate the start of Sunday. What I take issue with is when posters here say something to the effect that it is up to the local bishop to do this on his own—in other words, not to interpret but to legislate.

We cannot say “my bishop decides when Sunday begins” because the supreme authority of the Church decides that (ie the pope). Instead, we can say “my bishop interprets what the Holy See says and his interpretation is that it begins at…”

I wanted to give this parallel example in the other thread, but decided not to, to avoid derailing it.

Let’s take altar wine. The Church decides what constitutes valid matter for the Eucharist. If one is operating a winery and wants the wine approved, he would approach the local bishop for a letter of approval. In this case, the bishop is interpreting the Church’s law and applying it. The bishop is not deciding what constitutes valid matter, but he’s interpreting the Church–in other words, he cannot approve cola or tea. He cannot say “I decide that cola is valid matter in my diocese” because if he did that, he wouldn’t be interpreting.

The concern I first posted about is that when I read certain posters here, I come away with the impression that they seem to think “my bishop can decide that the Sunday Mass can be celebrated whenever it pleases him to say it can.” Now, I think it highly unlikely that any bishop would attempt to do such a thing (like say that Saturday evening begins at 8 in the morning on Saturday, or some such) but I do think that the distinction between interpreting and legislating is one that needs to be made.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Here’s what I meant earlier.

If your own bishop (or his vicar) tells you that he has interpreted the Church’s law to mean a certain time of day, then I say you should trust his interpretation. I’d say the same to any other poster with a similar scenario. Trust the bishop’s interpretation.

What I would like to clarify is that I am not saying that any particular bishop is attempting to legislate the start of Sunday. What I take issue with is when posters here say something to the effect that it is up to the local bishop to do this on his own—in other words, not to interpret but to legislate.

We cannot say “my bishop decides when Sunday begins” because the supreme authority of the Church decides that (ie the pope). Instead, we can say “my bishop interprets what the Holy See says and his interpretation is that it begins at…”

I wanted to give this parallel example in the other thread, but decided not to, to avoid derailing it.

Let’s take altar wine. The Church decides what constitutes valid matter for the Eucharist. If one is operating a winery and wants the wine approved, he would approach the local bishop for a letter of approval. In this case, the bishop is interpreting the Church’s law and applying it. The bishop is not deciding what constitutes valid matter, but he’s interpreting the Church–in other words, he cannot approve cola or tea. He cannot say “I decide that cola is valid matter in my diocese” because if he did that, he wouldn’t be interpreting.

The concern I first posted about is that when I read certain posters here, I come away with the impression that they seem to think “my bishop can decide that the Sunday Mass can be celebrated whenever it pleases him to say it can.” Now, I think it highly unlikely that any bishop would attempt to do such a thing (like say that Saturday evening begins at 8 in the morning on Saturday, or some such) but I do think that the distinction between interpreting and legislating is one that needs to be made.

My bishop does not prescribe a time.

The Holy See has not given a definitive time.

If the Holy See has not said I still don’t understand why a bishop can’t set a time in his own diocese. I’m really struggling to see where you see the divide between one bishop’s interpretation and that he’s legislating.

The Holy See says “vespere”. It says “vespere” begins with Evening Prayer (Vespers). The Holy See does not say what time Vespers is to be celebrated. My diocesan bishop has made no decision on this. So, how do I know if a Mass on any evening before a day of precept has met my obligation?

I’m not trying to be obtuse. I’ve seen this discussed so often here on CAF. It’s really nagging at me now. I’m definitely struggling with this.

 

[Vico]

My bishop does not prescribe a time.

The Holy See has not given a definitive time.

If the Holy See has not said I still don’t understand why a bishop can’t set a time in his own diocese. I’m really struggling to see where you see the divide between one bishop’s interpretation and that he’s legislating.

The Holy See says “vespere”. It says “vespere” begins with Evening Prayer (Vespers). The Holy See does not say what time Vespers is to be celebrated. My diocesan bishop has made no decision on this. So, how do I know if a Mass on any evening before a day of precept has met my obligation?

I’m not trying to be obtuse. I’ve seen this discussed so often here on CAF. It’s really nagging at me now. I’m definitely struggling with this.

You participated in a similar thread last January 2011, closed after 79 posts. At that time I posted this:

SinceThe New commentary on the Code of Canon Law by John P. Beal, James A. Coriden, and Thomas J. Green
andThe Canon Law: Letter & Spirit (1995, Sheehy, Morrisey, Canon Law Society of Great Britain and Ireland, Canadian Canon Law Society)
are both respected commentaries on Canon Law, and they do not agree, tolerance may be the answer.

Following are translations on the Vatican website. Notice that the German translation uses “Vorabend” (Eve), rather than “der Nachmittag” (afternoon) or “der Abend” (evening), which seems to be the figurative use which is broader.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=524576&referrerid=116848

I add, from Blessed Pope John Paul II (2003):
"Just as *Lauds *is prayed at daybreak, so *Vespers *is prayed close to sunset, at the hour when, in the temple of Jerusalem, the burnt offering was made with incense. At that hour, after his death on the Cross, Jesus was lying in the tomb, having offered himself to the Father for the salvation of the world.

The various Churches, following their respective traditions, organized the Divine Office in accordance with their own rites."
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/2003/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_20031015_en.html

 

[FrDavid96]

My bishop does not prescribe a time.

The Holy See has not given a definitive time.

If the Holy See has not said I still don’t understand why a bishop can’t set a time in his own diocese. I’m really struggling to see where you see the divide between one bishop’s interpretation and that he’s legislating.

I am not trying to say that any bishop is legislating. What I’m saying is that I want to make a point to readers here that he cannot actually do that. The reason is that I sometimes read posts where people are under the impression that “this is up to the bishop” to decide on whatever time he wants. Some people just don’t understand the difference between a bishop interpreting and a bishop legislating. All bishops do both. I do know that you understand the difference, but of course, these posts are being read by countless people.

I’m likewise not saying that a bishop cannot “set a time in his own diocese”–but I’m saying that he can interpret the Church’s laws and certainly regulate Mass times for his diocese; just that this has to be “interpreting” and not “making” (for lack of a better word) the law.

The Holy See says “vespere”. It says “vespere” begins with Evening Prayer (Vespers). The Holy See does not say what time Vespers is to be celebrated. My diocesan bishop has made no decision on this. So, how do I know if a Mass on any evening before a day of precept has met my obligation?

I’m not trying to be obtuse. I’ve seen this discussed so often here on CAF. It’s really nagging at me now. I’m definitely struggling with this.

I say that it’s 4 o’clock. I know I’ve been posting this many times, so I won’t repeat my reasoning for why I say it. My hesitation here is that I do not want someone else (and remember, this post will be available for years to come for anyone to read) to come away with the impression that I am trying to say “it must be 4 o’clock, so trust me, not your bishop or your pastor.”

Many people, especially scrupulous ones, will misuse what they read on the internet, and I don’t want to contribute to that; while at the same time I do want to participate in our conversation.

I can tell you that what I tell my own parishioners is “4 o’clock.” It’s also what my bishop tells our diocese, so in my own parish I’m simply acting as his representative when I say that.

How do you know? I say that because it was, after all, your closing question. I say follow the interpretation of your bishop. I know that you’ve said he hasn’t actually made a decision on this. I won’t dispute that, but I will say that it’s most likely that he’s regulating this one way or another. If the parishes in your diocese normally have Sunday Mass on Saturday evening starting at a certain time, follow that time.

If you go to a wedding on Saturday evening and it’s within the time-frame of a normal Saturday evening Mass, then I would tell you that it’s safe to say that you can “count” that as fulfilling the Sunday obligation. After all, if it was a regular Mass instead of a wedding Mass, there wouldn’t be the same hesitation.

If you’re attending the Mass and it uses the Sunday texts and readings; I would say that you can do so with a clear conscience that this time has been approved by the bishop (again, one way or another, even if he hasn’t made it a matter of formal policy).

 

[Chatter163]

http://forums.watchuseek.com/attachments/f15/44220d1175547081-beating-dead-horse-beat.gif