What to do about inculturation?

[lucybeebee]

It seems to me that one of the biggest obstacles facing both the spread of the TLM and the reform of the NO is the issue of inculturation. A generation of Catholics have become accustomed to Protestant Gospel music, Native American dancing, mariachi bands, polkas, etc. in the mass, all being justified by “inculturation.” To object to any of these practices brands one as being “culturally insensitive.” This becomes particularly tricky when one takes into account the political movements of the past 40+ years in which local cultural expression is celebrated and “Eurocentric” modes of worship (ie. the TLM) are frowned upon. Given this, how will the TLM movement handle inculturation?

 

[kikyo]

It seems to me that one of the biggest obstacles facing both the spread of the TLM and the reform of the NO is the issue of inculturation. A generation of Catholics have become accustomed to Protestant Gospel music, Native American dancing, mariachi bands, polkas, etc. in the mass, all being justified by “inculturation.” To object to any of these practices brands one as being “culturally insensitive.” This becomes particularly tricky when one takes into account the political movements of the past 40+ years in which local cultural expression is celebrated and “Eurocentric” modes of worship (ie. the TLM) are frowned upon. Given this, how will the TLM movement handle inculturation?

The “ignorant and foolish youth” will be the “salvation” of the Church (so to speak). More youth are turning toward Holy Tradition…it’s only a matter of time. Until then, we pray and continue to teach our children the truth.

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

The “ignorant and foolish youth” will be the “salvation” of the Church (so to speak). More youth are turning toward Holy Tradition…it’s only a matter of time. Until then, we pray and continue to teach our children the truth.

Then a generation or two later will pull up the Barney and Clown masses.

 

[stmaria]

Then a generation or two later will pull up the Barney and Clown masses.

The Tradtional Mass will never have a Barney or Clown Mass if that is what you are implying.

 

[lucybeebee]

Then a generation or two later will pull up the Barney and Clown masses.

The difference is that even the Clown mass crowd people understand what an abberation it is, whereas the inculturation supporters think that what they are doing is “traditional” to some extent and that it reflects their deepest cultural expressions. Hopefully, there is no tribal culture based on clowns or Barney…

 

[Dempsey1919]

The future is bright for the Church. Summorum Pontificum will bring an end to the many abuses that have plagued the liturgy. I am hoping that an increase in the amount of EF masses will positively affect the OF; maybe the increase in Tridentine Masses will cause many priests to begin celebrating reverent NO Masses.

The seminaries will soon have to begin teaching our future priests how to celebrate both Masses. The fact that they will be taught to celebrate the Tridentine Mass will mean that far more will have a working knowledge of the Latin language. This is definitely a good thing because latin was on the verge of extinction.

The venerable traditions of the Church are making a come back. Did you see the recent pictures of the Pope in that beautiful cope? It was reminiscent of the vestures worn by Pope Pius XII. Things are definitely getting better. The liberals are now on the back foot because we have a great Pope who is restoring the Church.

In this thread, we are discussing the problem of “inculturation.” From my viewpoint, I can see that the youth of tomorrow are going to experience an “inculturation” because they will be exposed to traditional catholicism. The next generation of Catholics will become accustomed to hearing “Judica me Deus…” and “Introibo ad Altare Dei.” They will sing “Ave Maria” and get used to traditional Catholic hymns. I think that the Church will embrace the culture of the Roman rite with it’s latin and gregorian chant.

I’m 21 years old and I only experienced the Pauline Mass when growing up. I didn’t know a single word of latin. I didn’t have any knowledge of the Tridentine Mass. Nowadays, I attend the Tridentine Mass every week and I know a fair bit of latin. I know that there are other younger Catholics like me. We want to worship like the Saints of old did. I want to worship in the same way as my forefathers.

The Tridentine Mass will be succsessful. The future is bright…

 

[palmas85]

It seems to me that one of the biggest obstacles facing both the spread of the TLM and the reform of the NO is the issue of inculturation. A generation of Catholics have become accustomed to Protestant Gospel music, Native American dancing, mariachi bands, polkas, etc. in the mass, all being justified by “inculturation.” To object to any of these practices brands one as being “culturally insensitive.” This becomes particularly tricky when one takes into account the political movements of the past 40+ years in which local cultural expression is celebrated and “Eurocentric” modes of worship (ie. the TLM) are frowned upon. Given this, how will the TLM movement handle inculturation?

The same way it did before and the same way in which it has survived despite attempts to thwart it, denigrate it and destroy it. There must be a reason that it has survived and that reason is a whole lot more than mere nostalgia. There is a power, a mystery a grace and splendor to the Traditional Mass that transcends popular movements and traditions. Many if not most people yearn for orthodoxy and truth in their worship. They may be fascinated and intrigued by attempts to make religion more relevant and accommodating. They’ll love it and swear fidelity to it. For a while that is. Then they will slowly begin to realize that something is missing, Something that cannot be precisely defined. That is what is happening now.

It has been a tough road. The progressives tried their literal best to wipe away the Traditional Mass and it didn’t work. There must be a reason for that.

 

[lucybeebee]

The same way it did before and the same way in which it has survived despite attempts to thwart it, denigrate it and destroy it. There must be a reason that it has survived and that reason is a whole lot more than mere nostalgia. There is a power, a mystery a grace and splendor to the Traditional Mass that transcends popular movements and traditions. Many if not most people yearn for orthodoxy and truth in their worship. They may be fascinated and intrigued by attempts to make religion more relevant and accommodating. They’ll love it and swear fidelity to it. For a while that is. Then they will slowly begin to realize that something is missing, Something that cannot be precisely defined. That is what is happening now.

My question is how do you approach someone and explain to them in a charitable way why African drumming during mass is inferior to Gregorian chant without being called racist? I guess it’s the same problem with altar girls in a way, another practice that many people have become attatched to that doesn’t go with the TLM.

 

[Cat]

My question is how do you approach someone and explain to them in a charitable way why African drumming during mass is inferior to Gregorian chant without being called racist? I guess it’s the same problem with altar girls in a way, another practice that many people have become attatched to that doesn’t go with the TLM.

I think you’re going to have a very difficult time with this, lucybeebee.

I realize that various popes have lauded the spirituality of Gregorian chant. I don’t know if this has ever been proclaimed “from the chair” as Catholic dogma. I think (?) that it has just been offered as personal opinion from various pontiffs.

Please, someone, correct me if I am wrong about this. I repeat, to my knowledge, no “official” dogma about specific musical styles or instruments in Mass has ever been issued from the Vatican. Generalities, yes (e.g., no instruments that are solely “secular” may be used in Mass–very vague). But no “specifics” like “only Gregorian chant in Mass”.

I personally cannot see why African drumming is inferior to Gregorian chant. I am a classically-trained pianist. I simply can’t see a difference. I think they’re both glorious, inspiring, and reverent. I personally would find African drumming more conducive to worship than Gregorian chant, and frankly (JMO), I think African drumming is more “dignified” and majestic than chant.

I think that it is the heart and motives of the musicians/congregation that God looks at, not their musical style choice. Various Psalms (especially 150) make it clear that many different types of music and instruments (including drums) glorify God. I don’t believe that these Psalms are speaking of music outside of the Holy Mass.

 

[Kielbasi]

The seminaries will soon have to begin teaching our future priests how to celebrate both Masses. The fact that they will be taught to celebrate the Tridentine Mass will mean that far more will have a working knowledge of the Latin language. This is definitely a good thing because latin was on the verge of extinction.

I haven’t heard of this, do you know when seminaries are going to be required to teach the Latin language as well as the old Latin liturgy?

It would seem to be a tall order as many of the professors would also need to be taught (before they can teach it themselves). Considering the fact that most high school graduates don’t know Latin in 2007, taking someone from that point to being able to celebrate the complex Latin liturgy is a long trip.

 

[marymol]

I think you’re going to have a very difficult time with this, lucybeebee.

I realize that various popes have lauded the spirituality of Gregorian chant. I don’t know if this has ever been proclaimed “from the chair” as Catholic dogma. I think (?) that it has just been offered as personal opinion from various pontiffs.

Please, someone, correct me if I am wrong about this. I repeat, to my knowledge, no “official” dogma about specific musical styles or instruments in Mass has ever been issued from the Vatican. Generalities, yes (e.g., no instruments that are solely “secular” may be used in Mass–very vague). But no “specifics” like “only Gregorian chant in Mass”.

I personally cannot see why African drumming is inferior to Gregorian chant. I am a classically-trained pianist. I simply can’t see a difference. I think they’re both glorious, inspiring, and reverent. I personally would find African drumming more conducive to worship than Gregorian chant, and frankly (JMO), I think African drumming is more “dignified” and majestic than chant.

I think that it is the heart and motives of the musicians/congregation that God looks at, not their musical style choice. Various Psalms (especially 150) make it clear that many different types of music and instruments (including drums) glorify God. I don’t believe that these Psalms are speaking of music outside of the Holy Mass.

Thank you for this perspective of experience …as we are about to sing the last notes of this year …a good year in many ways …( esp. the joy of all those who have been yearning for the deeper sense of tradition and continuity ;ironically , what is fueling this thirst might be the loss or hiddenness of the 'old traditions ’ in a world that had become fearful… of the hold of false doctrines…now no longer being so afraid … and has gladly embraced this rebirth - His mysterious and merciful ways ! )

Happened to read at a site that supports the scientific evidence for creationism , how there are ’ musical notes ’ or vibrations in the stars …and mountains … that are audible and measurable …and that Gregorain chant and such are in perfect harmony with these God authored notes …and they avoid some notes that are discordant with this music of God’s universe !

May be one of these days , with the advance in Godly wisdom , there will be some way of figuring this out better… … as to what are in true harmony …

Peace !

 

[palmas85]

My question is how do you approach someone and explain to them in a charitable way why African drumming during mass is inferior to Gregorian chant without being called racist? I guess it’s the same problem with altar girls in a way, another practice that many people have become attatched to that doesn’t go with the TLM.

Why would you have to approach and tell them anything? Present the faith and the Mass the way it is. I sincerely doubt that someone considering converting to Islam for example would go up to the local Imam and say, Hey, this religion is really cool, but you guys should have a little singing instead of these dreary old Arabian chants. Lets go for the vernacular and have a little music in it. Uh uh, it isn’t going to happen.

Allow the Mass to be presented as it is. People will either accept it or not. If they don’t and they need all of the extra little things to make it more palatable to them, then in all honesty, they are more than likely not seriously interested anyway.

This whole idea about attempting to make religion more relevant and socially acceptable really concerns me because what you end up with is a hopeless hodgepodge of feel good platitudes and worse with very little substance in it at all.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Please remember that most of the customs and rituals we have are the result of inculturation.

 

[stmaria]

Isn’t adapting the liturgy to different cultures addressed by Pope Pius X as a doctrine of the modernists?

ON THE DOCTRINE OF THE MODERNISTS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X, SEPTEMBER 8, 1907

“ To conclude this whole question of faith and its various branches, we have still to consider, Venerable Brethren, what the Modernists have to say about the development of the one and the other. First of all they lay down the general principle that in a living religion everything is subject to change, and must in fact be changed. In this way they pass to what is practically their principal doctrine, namely, evolution. To the laws of evolution everything is subject under penalty of death – dogma, Church, worship, the Books we revere as sacred, even faith itself…… The chief stimulus of the evolution of worship consists in the need of accommodation to the manners and customs of peoples, as well as the need of availing itself of the value which certain acts have acquired by usage. Finally, evolution in the Church itself is fed by the need of adapting itself to historical conditions and of harmonizing itself with existing forms of society.”

 

[palmas85]

Please remember that most of the customs and rituals we have are the result of inculturation.

Which ones and from whom were they adapted?

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Latin for one.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

“What people call dancing in the Ethiopian Rite or Zairean form of the Roman liturgy is in fact a rhythmically ordered procession, very much in keeping with the dignity of the occasion…Popular piety has a special importance as a bridge between the faith and each culture”

The Spirit of the Liturgy
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
page 199

“A liturgy in an Upper Bavarian village looks very different from High Mass in a French cathedral, which in turn seems quite unlike Mass in a southern Italian parish, and again that looks different from what you would find in a mountain village in the Andes, and so on.”

The Spirit of the Liturgy
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
page 202

 

[AJV]

Why would you have to approach and tell them anything? Present the faith and the Mass the way it is. I sincerely doubt that someone considering converting to Islam for example would go up to the local Imam and say, Hey, this religion is really cool, but you guys should have a little singing instead of these dreary old Arabian chants. Lets go for the vernacular and have a little music in it. Uh uh, it isn’t going to happen.

I don’t think that is a comparable issue. For Muslims the Quran is the word of allah and throguhout it references to allah speaking: “we sent this” or “we did this”. Since it was revealed in Arabic and allah is directly speaking, this makes Arabic practically the language of allah for a Muslim- which is why reading the Quran can only be done in Arabic. Even with the highest esteem, we do not assign Latin or any other language to the same pedestal that they exalt Arabic.

As for the chants they are different. The same wording is used- allahuakbar, haya alasalah, haya alafalah, etc., etc. - but it depends where the muezzin is from. The Arabs I feel chant it the most lyrically.

 

[AJV]

Isn’t adapting the liturgy to different cultures addressed by Pope Pius X as a doctrine of the modernists?

ON THE DOCTRINE OF THE MODERNISTS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X, SEPTEMBER 8, 1907

“ To conclude this whole question of faith and its various branches, we have still to consider, Venerable Brethren, what the Modernists have to say about the development of the one and the other. First of all they lay down the general principle that in a living religion everything is subject to change, and must in fact be changed. In this way they pass to what is practically their principal doctrine, namely, evolution. To the laws of evolution everything is subject under penalty of death – dogma, Church, worship, the Books we revere as sacred, even faith itself…… The chief stimulus of the evolution of worship consists in the need of accommodation to the manners and customs of peoples, as well as the need of availing itself of the value which certain acts have acquired by usage. Finally, evolution in the Church itself is fed by the need of adapting itself to historical conditions and of harmonizing itself with existing forms of society.”

I disagree. The citations are really to lengthy to post in the forum because the whole chapter is important- but to get an idea of the problem being addressed in the encyclical and the was “adaptation”/“accomodation” is understood, you can refer to Loisy’s book “l’Evangile et l’Eglise”/“The Gospel and theChurch”, Cahpter III on worship. There he speaks about the sacraments and so forth as adaptations to the culture (Greek from Jewish) not instituted by Christ. This is altogether different from what legitimate inculturation proposes.

 

[palmas85]

“What people call dancing in the Ethiopian Rite or Zairean form of the Roman liturgy is in fact a rhythmically ordered procession, very much in keeping with the dignity of the occasion…Popular piety has a special importance as a bridge between the faith and each culture”

The Spirit of the Liturgy
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
page 199

“A liturgy in an Upper Bavarian village looks very different from High Mass in a French cathedral, which in turn seems quite unlike Mass in a southern Italian parish, and again that looks different from what you would find in a mountain village in the Andes, and so on.”

The Spirit of the Liturgy
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
page 202

OK. What are some of the differences in these examples you pointed out? Please, let us know. We all know that a High Mass would be different than a Low Mass, but I want to know specifically which areas in the Mass were changed, omitted or modified due to an **inculturation **process. Saying Latin for one and posting quotes that Masses might look different in different places doesn’t really say a lot and in fact sems kind of a cop out…

As far as the use of Latin goes, I would imagine that Latin was among the first languages used for the Mass, along with Greek and Aramaic. I would go so far as to say that some of the first Masses celebrated may very well have been in Latin. At least I have never seen any definitive documentation that states otherwise.