What to do about inculturation?

[palmas85]

I don’t think that is a comparable issue. For Muslims the Quran is the word of allah and throguhout it references to allah speaking: “we sent this” or “we did this”. Since it was revealed in Arabic and allah is directly speaking, this makes Arabic practically the language of allah for a Muslim- which is why reading the Quran can only be done in Arabic. Even with the highest esteem, we do not assign Latin or any other language to the same pedestal that they exalt Arabic.

As for the chants they are different. The same wording is used- allahuakbar, haya alasalah, haya alafalah, etc., etc. - but it depends where the muezzin is from. The Arabs I feel chant it the most lyrically.

I think that while what you say is true, the point is still valid. You don’t approach a religion and say that if you only change these things I’ll accept it. That in essence is what many people seem to want the Catholic Church to do. Change what She does in order to appease more people and become more relevant. Well, they tried that and what did we get? Barney and Clowns and women wanting to be priests and hip hop masses and everything else in between.

My own personal take on things is that people will, left to their own devices take religion and totally transform it into something it was never meant to be. Either that or they will drift into heretical practices and create new and improved faiths and rituals that better serve their purported needs.

At least that seems to be what is happening and has been happening.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

OK. What are some of the differences in these examples you pointed out? Please, let us know. We all know that a High Mass would be different than a Low Mass, but I want to know specifically which areas in the Mass were changed, omitted or modified due to an **inculturation **process. Saying Latin for one and posting quotes that Masses might look different in different places doesn’t really say a lot and in fact sems kind of a cop out…

As far as the use of Latin goes, I would imagine that Latin was among the first languages used for the Mass, along with Greek and Aramaic. I would go so far as to say that some of the first Masses celebrated may very well have been in Latin. At least I have never seen any definitive documentation that states otherwise.

Did you not read the first quote?

It would appear that in Africa they perform a procession that appears to be a Liturgical Dance. That’s inculturation, that’s why there are about 7 different Rites in the 22 different Churches of the global Catholic Church.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Latin for one.

I just remembered, the Scriptures were all in Greek, the Vulgate is an inculturation.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

OK. What are some of the differences in these examples you pointed out? Please, let us know. We all know that a High Mass would be different than a Low Mass, but I want to know specifically which areas in the Mass were changed, omitted or modified due to an **inculturation **process. Saying Latin for one and posting quotes that Masses might look different in different places doesn’t really say a lot and in fact sems kind of a cop out…

As far as the use of Latin goes, I would imagine that Latin was among the first languages used for the Mass, along with Greek and Aramaic. I would go so far as to say that some of the first Masses celebrated may very well have been in Latin. At least I have never seen any definitive documentation that states otherwise.

The epiclesis is a modification, the words of consecration are a modification (the Anaphora of Addai and Mari has no reference to the words “This is my Body… This is the Cup of my Blood.”

Mandatory clerical celibacy is an inculturation.

Etc…

 

[lucybeebee]

Did you not read the first quote?

It would appear that in Africa they perform a procession that appears to be a Liturgical Dance. That’s inculturation, that’s why there are about 7 different Rites in the 22 different Churches of the global Catholic Church.

I wouldn’t call the procession in the Ethiopian Rite inculturation in the sense that we are using, since it has been in existence since about the 4th century. I was thinking it means taking an existing rite (the Latin Rite in this case) and adapting various elements of it to supposedly reflect a particular culture. Another problem with inculturation is that after you’re done adapting the mass, it looses the details that made it distinctive in the first place. Does anyone else find it strange that there is no actual Latin in most parishes that belong to the Latin Rite?

 

[AJV]

I wouldn’t call the procession in the Ethiopian Rite inculturation in the sense that we are using, since it has been in existence since about the 4th century.

It is not the necessarily the procession of the Ethiopian Rite. One of the most advanced approved incultrations is the Order of the Mass for the Dioceses of Zaire. It opens with a litany of saints, for example (during which there is the processional dancing) and relocates the penitential rite and the sign of peace in between the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. It also includes other texts for these parts, the readers are blessed before the read, etc.

 

[stmaria]

QUOTE=palmas85;3134708]I think that while what you say is true, the point is still valid. You don’t approach a religion and say that if you only change these things I’ll accept it. **That in essence is what many people seem to want the Catholic Church to do. Change what She does in order to appease more people and become more relevant. **

Pope Leo addresses this very idea in an encyclical. Thomas Heckler was an American Catholic convert and founder of the Paulist fathers. According to Hecker, Americam Catholics were enriched spiritually through exposure to American democracy and its tolerance for diversity of faiths.

Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13teste.htm

Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII promulgated on January 22, 1899.
“It is known to you, beloved son, that the biography of Isaac Thomas Hecker, especially through the action of those who under took to translate or interpret it in a foreign language, has excited not a little controversy, on account of certain opinions brought forward concerning the way of leading Christian life.
We, therefore, on account of our apostolic office, having to guard the integrity of the faith and the security of the faithful, are desirous of writing to you more at length concerning this whole matter.

The underlying principle of these new opinions is that, in order to more easily attract those who differ from her, the Church should shape her teachings more in accord with the spirit of the age and relax some of her ancient severity and make some concessions to new opinions. Many think that these concessions should be made not only in regard to ways of living, but even in regard to doctrines which belong to the deposit of the faith. They contend that it would be opportune,** in order to gain those who differ from us, to omit certain points of her teaching which are of lesser importance, and to tone down the meaning which the Church has always attached to them.** It does not need many words, beloved son, **to prove the falsity of these ideas **if the nature and origin of the doctrine which the Church proposes are recalled to mind. The Vatican Council says concerning this point: "For the doctrine of faith which God has revealed has not been proposed, like a philosophical invention to be perfected by human ingenuity, but has been delivered as a divine deposit to the Spouse of Christ to be faithfully kept and infallibly declared. Hence that meaning of the sacred dogmas is perpetually to be retained which our Holy Mother, the Church, has once declared, nor is that meaning ever to be departed from under the pretense or pretext of a deeper comprehension of them."

 

[palmas85]

It is not the necessarily the procession of the Ethiopian Rite. One of the most advanced approved incultrations is the Order of the Mass for the Dioceses of Zaire. It opens with a litany of saints, for example (during which there is the processional dancing) and relocates the penitential rite and the sign of peace in between the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. It also includes other texts for these parts, the readers are blessed before the read, etc.

I really fail to comprehend how moving parts of the Mass around to different places in the Mass could in any way shape or form be construed as inculturation.

 

[AJV]

I really fail to comprehend how moving parts of the Mass around to different places in the Mass could in any way shape or form be construed as inculturation.

Oh that’s not the only thing they do. Many texts are also different. And there are texts which are not found in the NO. For example, the penitential rite makes references to mosquitoes (O Lord our God, evil has come upon us like the insect that sticks into our skin adn sucks blood…) When presenting the gifts they say “O priest of God, behold our gifts, receive them as a sign of sharing and solidarity that we love one another as the Lord loves us”. Then there is also an inculturated Eucharistic prayer with more congregational acclamations and incorporating images like the “sun not gazed at directly” orwhen speaking of creation, the savannas.

 

[mystified]

Today, as almost always, I attended Mass in Spanish. Fewer abuses of the liturgy seem to show up in these celebrations. Today among the music in Spanish, our cantor led us in several Latin songs. I noticed that even the toddler to under-forty group joined in these traditional hymns and strophs. After Communion we joined in the Austrian-bred Christmas song “Silent Night” in Spanish. Oh, the priest-celebrant normally speaks English with a decided Irish brough, but his Spanish was more than just passible.
What is inculturation?

 

[Volodymyr_988]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inculturation

 

[palmas85]

Oh that’s not the only thing they do. Many texts are also different. And there are texts which are not found in the NO. For example, the penitential rite makes references to mosquitoes (O Lord our God, evil has come upon us like the insect that sticks into our skin adn sucks blood…) When presenting the gifts they say “O priest of God, behold our gifts, receive them as a sign of sharing and solidarity that we love one another as the Lord loves us”. Then there is also an inculturated Eucharistic prayer with more congregational acclamations and incorporating images like the “sun not gazed at directly” orwhen speaking of creation, the savannas.

Those particular things really don’t seem to be changes in the Mass due to inculturation. In fact they really don’t seem to be changes to the substance of the Mass at all. I have seen much bigger changes to the Mass here in the US than anything put forth as an inculturated change mentioned here… Maybe what some see an a change due to inculturation is merely a different way of saying the same thing.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Check my post before yours.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I strongly support the widespread use of the TLM, and moreover maintain that learning the Latin of the TLM is not at all difficult, so maybe I can be forgiven in a “Traditional Catholicism” thread for saying the following.

I also appreciate the NO. I actually like a lot of the old gospel songs. At least they’re singable, which is more than I can say for “On Eagles Wings”, “Yahweh I know you are near” and some of those songs that only Kathleen Battle and the Irish Tenors can sing (if even they can). Oh yes, and those old gospel songs have actual melodies one can follow and remember.

At one Mass in my parish, the music is played on a hammered dulcimer by the converted, now very devoutly Catholic daughter of a Missionary Baptist preacher.

I grew up here in the Bible Belt, and about all that was on the radio back when I was a kid were gospel songs. I listened to Red Foley and some of the old country music greats sing those old songs on the “Ozark Jubilee” and, (I’m not kidding) even Perry Como sang some of them. Listening to them didn’t make a protestant of me.

In my parish of about 400 families or so, somewhere around 20 adult converts enter the Church every year. Virtually every one is from some evangelical church or other. That isn’t too bad! I am going to guess that something like 1/3 of my parish consists in converts, mostly from evangelical backgrounds.

I don’t have any compaints about the reverence shown. I could appreciate people dressing up a bit more, but this is a country parish, and I don’t know how many men actually own suits around here anymore. I have never seen a clown Mass, and I have a feeling that’s largely a city thing. Part of the problem with alleged “inculturated” Masses in the U.S. is that they really aren’t “inculturated” at all. In much of the U.S., the only “culture” is modernity, and what passes for “inculturation” is just something believed trendy that they made up. But in some places, like here, there really is an underlying culture. It might be thought backward and primitive by many, but at least it’s real.

I don’t think people who are thinking of converting are going to be put off by the TLM. But I also like to think praying together in the vernacular; singing those old gospel songs now and then, and the hammered dulcimer music makes some of those evangelicals who are thinking about converting feel a bit more at home than they otherwise might. “Coming to Jesus” is what they are there for, in a way they could never find in the Churches they left. And when they approach the Eucharist, I think they really mean it. That’s what’s important from my perspective. And when the lady plays an old gospel song on the hammered dulcimer when people go up for Communion, there’s a reverence in it that’s very, very strong.

So, I guess I will have to say I would love to see the TLM return to my parish. But I will also have to say that I would hate to see the “inculturated” N.O. go. I truly would. I don’t see why there can’t be room for both.

 

[palmas85]

Check my post before yours.

OK I read it.

 

[Cat]

I strongly support the widespread use of the TLM, and moreover maintain that learning the Latin of the TLM is not at all difficult, so maybe I can be forgiven in a “Traditional Catholicism” thread for saying the following.

I also appreciate the NO. I actually like a lot of the old gospel songs. At least they’re singable, which is more than I can say for “On Eagles Wings”, “Yahweh I know you are near” and some of those songs that only Kathleen Battle and the Irish Tenors can sing (if even they can). Oh yes, and those old gospel songs have actual melodies one can follow and remember.

At one Mass in my parish, the music is played on a hammered dulcimer by the converted, now very devoutly Catholic daughter of a Missionary Baptist preacher.

I grew up here in the Bible Belt, and about all that was on the radio back when I was a kid were gospel songs. I listened to Red Foley and some of the old country music greats sing those old songs on the “Ozark Jubilee” and, (I’m not kidding) even Perry Como sang some of them. Listening to them didn’t make a protestant of me.

In my parish of about 400 families or so, somewhere around 20 adult converts enter the Church every year. Virtually every one is from some evangelical church or other. That isn’t too bad! I am going to guess that something like 1/3 of my parish consists in converts, mostly from evangelical backgrounds.

I don’t have any compaints about the reverence shown. I could appreciate people dressing up a bit more, but this is a country parish, and I don’t know how many men actually own suits around here anymore. I have never seen a clown Mass, and I have a feeling that’s largely a city thing. Part of the problem with alleged “inculturated” Masses in the U.S. is that they really aren’t “inculturated” at all. In much of the U.S., the only “culture” is modernity, and what passes for “inculturation” is just something believed trendy that they made up. But in some places, like here, there really is an underlying culture. It might be thought backward and primitive by many, but at least it’s real.

I don’t think people who are thinking of converting are going to be put off by the TLM. But I also like to think praying together in the vernacular; singing those old gospel songs now and then, and the hammered dulcimer music makes some of those evangelicals who are thinking about converting feel a bit more at home than they otherwise might. “Coming to Jesus” is what they are there for, in a way they could never find in the Churches they left. And when they approach the Eucharist, I think they really mean it. That’s what’s important from my perspective. And when the lady plays an old gospel song on the hammered dulcimer when people go up for Communion, there’s a reverence in it that’s very, very strong.

So, I guess I will have to say I would love to see the TLM return to my parish. But I will also have to say that I would hate to see the “inculturated” N.O. go. I truly would. I don’t see why there can’t be room for both.

This is a lovely post. Thank you so much. A lot of people in our parish have the same loving, charitable attitude that you have.

As one of those evangelical converts, I can tell you with certainty that the “Protestant feeling” in the NO mass was a huge help to me and my husband. We would have been terrified and very put-off by a Latin Mass and chants and probably wouldn’t have returned week after week. To us, that kind of “ritual” would have looked…sorry…pagan.

For those of you who don’t have an evangelical Protestant background, you won’t be able to understand what I am saying, so please just try to realize that not everyone is trained from childhood to find ancient tradition “reverent.” Evangelicals are brought up very differently from you. It’s a whole different culture.

I’m not saying that you have to change everything just to win over the evangelicals. But I think that the NO Mass is a very nice “draw” for evangelicals.

And remember, St. Paul talks about being all things to all people in order to win some to the Lord. Also, the Holy Spirit did give the apostles the gift of speaking in the tongues of the people in the street, implying that using vernacular is important when it comes to bringing in converts.

 

[Kielbasi]

I strongly support the widespread use of the TLM, and moreover maintain that learning the Latin of the TLM is not at all difficult, so maybe I can be forgiven in a “Traditional Catholicism” thread for saying the following.

Well, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion about how easy Latin is to learn. But the many generations of school kids had quite a different opinion.

“Latin is a language as dead as dead can be. It killed the ancient Romans–and now it’s killing me”

 

[lucybeebee]

I can only speak for my own experiences about inculturation. Prior to my joining a TLM parish, I went to a majority black parish near my house. The liturgy consisted primarily of Protestant Gospel songs. As an RCIA candidate, this confused me greatly; why is there Protestant music in a Catholic Church (before becoming Catholic, I thought that the mass was still in Latin)? I mean, if I wanted that I could have stayed Protestant. Plus, in comparison to the Protestant gospel choirs of Atlanta, it seemed to be lacking something. I was essentially “unchurched” before becoming. I always wondered (and still do) what relationship black Catholics would have had with Gospel music before Vatican II. Would it have been sung in non-liturgical religious settings or was it a thing that only Protestants did? To me, it seems like inserting an artificial tradition in the mass by saying, “some black people sing Gospel so all black people sing Gospel.” I was told that the hymnal used in majority black parishes was created by a committee of some kind, which seems to be the exact opposite of organic tradition.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

I can only speak for my own experiences about inculturation. Prior to my joining a TLM parish, I went to a majority black parish near my house. The liturgy consisted primarily of Protestant Gospel songs. As an RCIA candidate, this confused me greatly; why is there Protestant music in a Catholic Church (before becoming Catholic, I thought that the mass was still in Latin)? I mean, if I wanted that I could have stayed Protestant. Plus, in comparison to the Protestant gospel choirs of Atlanta, it seemed to be lacking something. I was essentially “unchurched” before becoming. I always wondered (and still do) what relationship black Catholics would have had with Gospel music before Vatican II. Would it have been sung in non-liturgical religious settings or was it a thing that only Protestants did? To me, it seems like inserting an artificial tradition in the mass by saying, “some black people sing Gospel so all black people sing Gospel.” I was told that the hymnal used in majority black parishes was created by a committee of some kind, which seems to be the exact opposite of organic tradition.

You’d better check your Hymnal. Most of the traditional songs we sing were written by Protestants, and most of them by Charles Wesley.

 

[Bro_Joshua]

My question is how do you approach someone and explain to them in a charitable way why African drumming during mass is inferior to Gregorian chant without being called racist? I guess it’s the same problem with altar girls in a way, another practice that many people have become attatched to that doesn’t go with the TLM.

I do not know any charitable way to say that the cultural norms of one group is superior or inferior to the cultural norms of another. It may help to concider the perseption of the recieving party you might be speakign with. Then give a moment to think if the same wording was used in reverse, how would you (or I) recieve the suggestion that you are inferior, or that Gegorian Chant is inferior. Then consider selecting words that might appear less abrasive.

Another approach is to avoid comparative or competative terms and sentences. Concentrate on presenting what you like about Gregorian Chant. I happen to love Gregorian Chant. It is spiritualy lifting, allows my spirit to drift in peace, pulls out emotion in a worshiping way for me. Ojibweg dancing does this for me also. It is not often I do this - but I have come down the aisle or circled the Church lightly in step with some traditional spiritual music (druming or singing). Its not the sort of thing I would enjoy to enforce on non-Natives - but I enjoy it. Gregorian does the same for me. I agree that Gregorian is a strong cultural norm for the Roman Church and I wish more of it was used. The more common, easy chants are picked up on so fast and more people respond to actice participation in Gregorian chant than the averag so-called complicated folk melody that needs words and music score to follow. A “folk” melody is folky only to a given cultural group - not to the whole Church. I would hardly expect most Non-Natives to be able to comfortably and with right heart set to get “into” the Anishinabe Chants and musical worship traditions I so love. In the right setting, I should not be denied this opportunity in the spirit of the Teaching of the Church on inculturation. But I fully agree the Irish or German music, such as Mozart and Morning has broken is not for the whole church. It is, however, for those of those cultures.

I’m all for Gregorian chant. It, as with any tried and true cultural tradtition is not superior or inferior as far as I can tell. Avoiding such measurments and just sticking to telling who you are and what you like or prefer will probably go over better. The hardnose neo-liturgist who plans the weekly sunday morning show won’t listen to you or me no matter what method you use. But plenty of other good people will.