What to do about liturgical abuses?

[MSSheBear]

Kneelers are simply a convenience. I attended Mass at San Marco in Venice and there were no kneelers. We still knelt.

Catholic churches didn’t use to have pews, let alone kneelers, and for a while in the last couple of decades it was ‘fashionable’ to not have kneelers in new churches based on canon 20 from the Council of Nicea. That canon is followed by our Eastern brothers and sisters but not by Latin Rite Catholics.

In our parish we have enough elderly that a large group cannot kneel without kneelers. Um, it is actually kind of hard for me to get up.

 

[RoseMary131]

I recently found out that the parish that I go to does quite a bit of liturgical abuse like holding hands during the Our Father and standing for the consecration.I didn’t know that these were against Church law until this weekend because I’m a neophyte and I’ve only gone to mass in two different places, and they both do the same things. Nothing invalidates the mass (from what I’ve observed) but it would be nice if we could follow the rules…

Anyway I doubt that by myself I’ll be able to change how things are done in the parish, but what do you guys suggest I do while I attend Mass there? As of right now switching parishes is not an option really, and I honestly do love the people there but the fact that we’re breaking the rules bothers me.

Any advice?
Thank you!

Welcome to the Church.

Please be at peace.

How wonderful as a college student that you are able to attend Mass. So many young people step away from any Faith during college. I am so happy you are strong in your faith.

Do not be worried. Be at Peace.

I say this because you do not have to try to tackle problems with the priest. Many people will disagree, but I find it can be over whelming for someone to be worried about the priest possibly doing things that are incorrect and trying to get the priest to correct it.

For holding hands during Mass, it is okay to do so or not. It is your choice. You will find many good and holy Catholics do this while other good and holy Catholics do not.

For kneeling during the consecration, if you feel more comfortable kneeling and you are not in the way of others - maybe you would like to kneel. If you feel more comfortable keeping the posture of the parish, please do so.

You may want to speak to the priests at the parish you attend and at the Newman Center parish and simply ask why this is done.

Many people will encourage you to only kneel - even though it puts you differently than the parish or Newman Center parish as a whole. Many people will encourage you to take more action to get this corrected.

God does not call each of us to be the one to address this with the priest or bishop. Pray about what God is calling you to do, which may be not to speak to the priest or write the Bishop.

Pray about being at Peace. May God lead you to be at Peace at Mass.

 

[triumphguy]

You should talk to the parish priest first, then he will not correct liturgical abuses, start writing, first to your bishop, and then if this does not solve the problem, then to Rome. Here are some guidelines about writing to them.
wdtprs.com/blog/tips-for-writing-to-bishops-and-to-the-pc-ecclesia-dei
While standing during the Eucharistic Prayer is a liturgical abuse, holding hands then is not, unless the priest tells the people to hold hands during the Our Father, which is out-of-line.
However, if you do write, it would be better to speak of other liturgical abuses as well, especially of more serious ones, if there are some.
If you are not sure if something is a liturgical abuse, you could ask on this thread.
Liturgical abuses do not make a mass invalid, but you have a right to be upset over liturgical abuses. The Vatican has said very definitely and more than once that liturgical abuses violate the rights of the people there. It also in fact disturbs the worship of the people there who realize that something wrong is occurring during the mass. The Second Vatican Council insisted that priests have no right to alter the liturgy in such a way
(As another poster mentioned, the Church’s GIRM(General Instruction on the Roman Missal) instructs that the people are to kneel during the Eucharistic prayer. No priest has the right to change this. [Nor in fact can even the local bishop change this, since it is a Church norm and not a diocesan prerogative].)

She’s brand new to the church for crying out loud.

 

[clem456]

I recently found out that the parish that I go to does quite a bit of liturgical abuse like holding hands during the Our Father and standing for the consecration.I didn’t know that these were against Church law until this weekend because I’m a neophyte and I’ve only gone to mass in two different places, and they both do the same things. Nothing invalidates the mass (from what I’ve observed) but it would be nice if we could follow the rules…

Anyway I doubt that by myself I’ll be able to change how things are done in the parish, but what do you guys suggest I do while I attend Mass there? As of right now switching parishes is not an option really, and I honestly do love the people there but the fact that we’re breaking the rules bothers me.

Any advice?
Thank you!

Since, as you say, there is nothing productive you can do, attend Mass and offer up your preferences and annoyance. If there are injustices being committed (doesn’t sound like it), God will take care of it.

 

[triumphguy]

Also just because you read something here on CAF it doesn’t make it Gospel.

It’s probably more abusive to a new person to set up barriers to their growing faith.

 

[catholictiger]

A couple of notes

1, the GIRM has no instruction for what the people do during the our father so holding hands is not an abuse

1. What you explain with the kneeling is a breaking of a norm in the United States. It is actually not stated in the GIRM I believe that people kneel during the EP this is a norm approved by Rome that the United States does.

But when it comes to an abuse ALWAYS talk to the priest first

 

[FAB]

Just Ask.
Ask the priest. “Father I have aways kneeled in mass, I thought that was the norm, is there a reason we stand here” He will most likely give you a straight answer.

A clue to those of you who always want to shoot a letter off to Bishop, unless it is a severe abuse and neither one of these practices is an abuse, They send the letter back to the priest to resolve.

Deacon Frank

 

[MSSheBear]

It would be far better to annoy the priest than offend the Lord. The Priest is human and I am sure has his off days like all of us. That is why we have to keep Priests in our Prayers, to remain Holy and Obedient to the Church.:harp:

Now I am not sure that I would be correct given what FAB has posted. Our priest has publicly stated that we all stand. He most likely publicly correct me. So the prudent thing for me to do if not kneeling is an abuse would be to go to another parish.

 

[FAB]

Now I am not sure that I would be correct given what FAB has posted. Our priest has publicly stated that we all stand. He most likely publicly correct me. So the prudent thing for me to do if not kneeling is an abuse would be to go to another parish.

Kneeling is not a universal posture for the Eucharistic prayer. It is prescribed by our bishops of the USCCB, however for various reason the pastor may choose the posture of standing.
For most of it history, standing was the norm and is still recognized as a suitable posture.

It is prudent to observe the practice of the parish. Trust in the reasons that the priest may have. Ask him why the practice in a polite way if you wish.
A pastor would much rather answer a question in person as opposed , through a letter of complaint. In truth, having to answer questions of complaint were them out. Trust in his decisions and be obedient to them, he didn’t get the collar he wears out of a cracker jack box.

Dcn. Frank

 

[Phemie]

Kneeling is not a universal posture for the Eucharistic prayer. It is prescribed by our bishops of the USCCB, however for various reason the pastor may choose the posture of standing.
For most of it history, standing was the norm and is still recognized as a suitable posture.

It is prudent to observe the practice of the parish. Trust in the reasons that the priest may have. Ask him why the practice in a polite way if you wish.
A pastor would much rather answer a question in person as opposed , through a letter of complaint. In truth, having to answer questions of complaint were them out. Trust in his decisions and be obedient to them, he didn’t get the collar he wears out of a cracker jack box.

Dcn. Frank

Kneeling for the Consecration is the universal norm.

Kneeling for the entire EP is the norm for the US as is kneeling after the “Ecce Agnus Dei” unless the diocesan bishop has opted for standing for his diocese.

 

[FAB]

Kneeling for the Consecration is the universal norm.

Kneeling for the entire EP is the norm for the US as is kneeling after the “Ecce Agnus Dei” unless the diocesan bishop has opted for standing for his diocese.

I would suggest that it is more a a practice in the United States were we have money for pews and kneelers. You will find that people from third world countries are more likely to stand when they attend a mass here because it is the norm in many countries.
In any case, it is still not a liturgical abuse to stand.

 

[MSSheBear]

I would suggest that it is more a a practice in the United States were we have money for pews and kneelers. You will find that people from third world countries are more likely to stand when they attend a mass here because it is the norm in many countries.
In any case, it is still not a liturgical abuse to stand.

Unfortunately, I believed it was wrong for him to insist we stand. Our priest doesn’t like people coming to him with complaints.

 

[robwar]

Also just because you read something here on CAF it doesn’t make it Gospel.

It’s probably more abusive to a new person to set up barriers to their growing faith.

Yes, and it makes one wonder what OP read in the first place and where the info came from and why that put worries over liturgical abuses (most of which are in the head).

 

[Brendan]

I would suggest that it is more a a practice in the United States were we have money for pews and kneelers. **You will find that people from third world countries are more likely to stand when they attend a mass here because it is the norm in many countries. **In any case, it is still not a liturgical abuse to stand.

Could you give some example of such countries? I used to travel extensively for business and still go regularly to east Africa for mission work.

I cannot think of a single country where people did not regularly kneel for the Consecration, even if it was on dirt floors or concrete.

 

[agnes_therese]

I don’t see where anyone has quoted the GIRM on this; if you did and I missed it, I apologize. Bolding is mine.

From #43 –
"In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.[53]

For the sake of uniformity in gestures and bodily postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the instructions which the Deacon, a lay minister, or the Priest gives, according to what is laid down in the Missal."

 

[MSSheBear]

This implies we should stand during the Consecration if the priest instructs us to. My original understanding was that our priest had no business doing so except for some safety issues at our parish. Therefore it would be okay for us to kneel.

 

[Joe_5859]

As a neophyte, I would only very slowly come to the conclusion of “liturgical abuse”.

 

[triumphguy]

This implies we should stand during the Consecration if the priest instructs us to. My original understanding was that our priest had no business doing so except for some safety issues at our parish. Therefore it would be okay for us to kneel.

Well I would say that if the priest says stand or kneel or sit we should all do so at that time and trust in his judgment. Questions can be asked later.

And if I was new to the Church I would find someone holy to talk to about deepening my relationship with Christ in the Church.

 

[FAB]

Unfortunately, I believed it was wrong for him to insist we stand. Our priest doesn’t like people coming to him with complaints.

Most pastors do not like complaints on decisions they have made. the main reason as the Pastor of the the parish he has the right to make them and as the laity is called by canon for obedience to his decision. This seems to be missed on a great number, many on CA.

I did not say to complain, I said to ask in a polite way in the same way you would ask a question about scripture.
The guidelines say should and not must, so it is a decision he can make.

 

[FAB]

Could you give some example of such countries? I used to travel extensively for business and still go regularly to east Africa for mission work.

I cannot think of a single country where people did not regularly kneel for the Consecration, even if it was on dirt floors or concrete.

I have found that newcomers and visitors from Mexico and other South American countries are not use to kneeling during the consecration and most often remain standing when they first come here.