What to do when contradiction happens?

[whatistrue]

Actually you presented your opinion.

No, I corrected the misstatement you made about what I said. Opinion didn’t enter into it.

Could you present the link to these statements,

No. If you can’t keep up with your own posts, that’s not my problem.

I am done. Welcome to the Ignore bucket.

 

[Dovekin]

whatistrue:

How is the value of pi relevant to salvation?

It only relevant to show that the bible was written by ignorant humans.

And read by ignorant humans as well.

Π is called a transcendental number, because it cannot be expressed with just integers and their ratios. Mathematicians adopted theological language as the best analogy to describe its role among numbers.

Your approach seems to preclude such transcendentals. Fundamentalist positivism rejects the mystical arenas where the transcendental thrives; they prefer to keep to a few simple areas for the transcendent, like God and Scripture. IMO, it is not a good attitude to copy. Catholicism otoh constantly struggles with mystery and paradox, to be true to what is beyond our knowing.

Do you have a place for the transcendental in your thought? Even just mathematic transcendentalism, where important things cannot be expressed without going beyond the bounds of a set. Π, e, and other transcendentals tell us important things about our world. Mathematics would suffer if they were lost.

 

[vsedriver]

So, let’s see something that cannot be denied. I

ah! you wish to witness a miracle. It’s true that it is very, very easy to believe if you have witnessed a miracle. Does God ‘owe’ you a miracle? and if so why?

No, it is NOT a choice. If you don’t understand this, we are wasting our time.

of course it is a choice. You set your standard for belief and have made your choice.

I did. And nothing happened. Please do not accuse me of “giving up too fast”.

Yet, nothing happened yet. Well you did give up. All I can promise you is that one day you will encounter God. You can do it on your terms or on his. And that is a choice!

 

[Abrosz]

Do you have a place for the transcendental in your thought? Even just mathematic transcendentalism, where important things cannot be expressed without going beyond the bounds of a set. Π, e, and other transcendentals tell us important things about our world. Mathematics would suffer if they were lost.

The words “transcendent” and “irrational” were very poorly chosen words in mathematics. “Irrational” meant that the number cannot be expressed as the “ratio” of two integers. It has nothing to do with “rationality”. In other words, the number is “irrational” if it cannot be the root of the a * x + b = 0 linear equation. The transcendent means that it is cannot be the root of a polynomial equation.

There is no reason to read anything more into it.

 

[Abrosz]

ah! you wish to witness a miracle. It’s true that it is very, very easy to believe if you have witnessed a miracle. Does God ‘owe’ you a miracle? and if so why?

The where does the word “owe” come from? I am not asking or “demanding” a miracle. I merely present my view on the subject.

of course it is a choice. You set your standard for belief and have made your choice.

A choice implies a volitional action. Can you “choose” to believe something that is absurd to you?

Yet, nothing happened yet. Well you did give up. All I can promise you is that one day you will encounter God. You can do it on your terms or on his.

“Yet”… you say? And you “promise”? You try to get into an open-ended prediction, which is not acceptable. Put your money where your mouth is. If you wish to make a prediction, specify the “what”, the “where” and the “when”. Not some ridiculous “prophesy” that something, sometime, somewhere will happen.

God is welcome to set his terms. I am here to listen. But you or the church or anyone else is not qualified to speak for God.

 

[Dovekin]

The transcendent means that it is cannot be the root of a polynomial equation.

There is no reason to read anything more into it.

Define it however you want. Is there room in your thought for a number that cannot be the root of a polynomial equation?

X^2 + Y^2 = r^2 is a circle with radius r and circumference c. You seem to care deeply that 3 as an approximation of π is wrong; why don’t you care that c/r is always an approximation, is always wrong? Why is the former a part of your thought, but not the latter?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Small child, who indiscriminately “swallowed” everything that the authority tells.

Jesus said we should become like little children. Maybe you need to find that small child inside you again.

 

[Abrosz]

Define it however you want.

Personally I don’t define it. It is the accepted (though ill-conceived wording) definition.

Is there room in your thought for a number that cannot be the root of a polynomial equation?

Of course. Actually most of the numbers are that kind.

You seem to care deeply that 3 as an approximation of π is wrong

You missed the point. It is not the approximation per se, it is that it is much worse than the other approximations of those times.

Jesus said we should become like little children. Maybe you need to find that small child inside you again.

And Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:11 “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.”

is this not an Oops moment?

 

[vsedriver]

A choice implies a volitional action. Can you “choose” to believe something that is absurd to you?

if this is absurd to you, why do you care? Why are you bothering with this thread? I don’t waste my time on things that I find absurd. If you are so confident of your understanding of God then go about your business as if God doesn’t exist and has no reality in your life. What do you care what other people think? You already have your answer. You can leave heaven to those who believe. After all, if Christians are wrong then we all suffer the same fate. It’s only if Christians are right will you be in a tough spot. But you already know you are right so why worry?

I am here to listen. But you or the church or anyone else is not qualified to speak for God.

You are not here to listen. Listening implies an openness. You are not open to anything because you have already declared that no one has authority to tell you what you want to know. So stop whining and go live a happy and productive life until you die. Problem solved.

The church is qualified to speak for God and has her authority from Jesus Christ himself.

Mark 9:24 And immediately the father of the boy crying out, with tears said: I do believe, Lord: help my unbelief.

I hope the Lord helps you with your unbelief.

 

[nicholasG]

if this is absurd to you, why do you care? Why are you bothering with this thread? I don’t waste my time on things that I find absurd. If you are so confident of your understanding of God then go about your business as if God doesn’t exist and has no reality in your life. What do you care what other people think?

I can’t speak for @Abrosz but I think it’s important because the Church often tries to effect policy in society. Things like marriage, birth control, education, sex, etc…So you see it’s not that simple. If there was a true separation of Church and state then you’d be right, it would be no ones business.

 

[Abrosz]

if this is absurd to you, why do you care?

You don’t understand. I said that beliefs are not volitional, that is all. I never chose to be a believer when I was young. I accepted what the authorities told me. It took a long time to start questioning. And I never chose to become a skeptic. To say that I “chose” to be a skeptic is what I consider to be absurd.

If you are so confident of your understanding of God then go about your business as if God doesn’t exist and has no reality in your life.

Sure, and I do. And funny enough I have been mistaken to be a Christian, because of the way I conducted my life. There was no difference between your behavior toward others and mine. The only difference was that my “acts” count for nothing, because I did not do them out of faith. And as you know, works without faith are meaningless. By the way that was one of the reasons that started my journey away from faith.

You are not here to listen.

I just love your self-conceited arrogance.

You are not open to anything because you have already declared that no one has authority to tell you what you want to know.

Actually, there is something (not someone). Reason, facts and logic are my guiding force. And I said that I reject self-proclaimed authorities. Proven authorities are welcome to guide me.

 

[Abrosz]

I can’t speak for @Abrosz but I think it’s important because the Church often tries to effect policy in society. Things like marriage, birth control, education, sex, etc…So you see it’s not that simple. If there was a true separation of Church and state then you’d be right, it would be no ones business.

Thank you!

 

[Dovekin]

You missed the point. It is not the approximation per se, it is that it is much worse than the other approximations of those times .

You keep missing the point. There is always a better approximation. If you want to say a particular approximation is not good enough, how do you determine what is good enough? You have set yourself up with a ruler, and pretend that is good enough to measure a circle.

 

[Abrosz]

You keep missing the point. There is always a better approximation. If you want to say a particular approximation is not good enough, how do you determine what is good enough?

Something that is significantly better than the best one in those times… that would be interesting.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

And Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:11 “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.”

is this not an Oops moment?

Nope. “Childish things” in this case is your childish insistence on your own view, instead of putting your trust in God.

Besides, Jesus meant for us to be child-LIKE, not child-ISH…there’s a difference, as my mama taught me.

I’ll step off now, and keep you in my prayers. I do not think there is anything further I can do for you right now.

 

[Abrosz]

Nope. “Childish things” in this case is your childish insistence on your own view, instead of putting your trust in God.

I would trust God, if only he talked to me. But when I expressed this, I was told too many times: “Who are you (you dirty, odious, despicable, insignificant sinner) to demand that the Almighty should do your bidding?” (The adjectives were not included every time! )

Besides, Jesus meant for us to be child-LIKE, not child-ISH…there’s a difference, as my mama taught me.

Take it up with Paul or the translator. Child-like would be trusting, unquestioning, accepting whatever an authority tells you. Not much of a difference. And I did away with that attitude, be it child-ish, or child-like.

I’ll step off now, and keep you in my prayers. I do not think there is anything further I can do for you right now.

Thank you.

 

[Vico]

…
There are many things in the bible, which deal with physical history, and which are flatly contradicted by science. The bible says “this” and science says “that” - for the same proposition. Which one do you accept and on what grounds?
…

Do you have one specific example to consider?

 

[Abrosz]

Do you have one specific example to consider?

Just one? Virgin birth.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Do you have one specific example to consider?

Just one? Virgin birth.

So you are saying that the physical history of virgin birth is flatly contradicted by science?

What is science but the study of the material, and has no study of the supernatural. Because the Holy Spirit overshadowed the Virgin Mary it was a miraculous conception, and also the preservation of virginal integrity during birth was also miraculous. The early Christians did not have our scientific knowledge, yet knew that the Virgin Birth was not in the natural order of things, rather it was a miracle.

 

[Abrosz]

So you are saying that the physical history of virgin birth is flatly contradicted by science?

The alleged history What you call “history” is just a legend. I have nothing against legends. Actually in pretty much every religion (back then) had a legend about a hero, or savior born to a virgin. Virginity was revered in those days.

But the problem is biological. Virgin birth - genetic replica of the mother - can and does exist in some species, but the offspring is always a female.

Of course there many other legends like this.