What to do when husband disagrees?

[bear06]

Lorarose:

I stand corrected. Here are your exact words…

Are you a counselor of some sort?

Lorarose, have you read the whole thread? Yes, if her husband won’t read a book on the subject at her request, then I’d say that her marriage may have some deeper issues that need attention. You don’t think there are some problems here? You yourself suggested counseling. I completely agree with that. What did I say that was contrary to that? And no, I’m not a counselor but we do teach marriage prep and we teach our couples to watch out for certain attitudes and issues in each other that can be detrimental to their marriage. The Church’s teachings are designed to protect marriages from harm.

 

[slick4]

cargau:

Hi Slick,

Instead of focusing on the negative (ie: what you can’t/won’t do), focus on the positive. Tell him, that of all the things life offers the one thing you want most desperately for him is a ticket to heaven. And, as his loving wife, you are committed to living a life of grace in accordance with the will of God, whatever form that may take including activities in the bedroom.

Tell him that you don’t seek to limit him or disappoint him, you simply are trying to help him to grow in holiness as you must hope that he will do for you.

Of all the things that spouses do for each other, the most vital is spiritual support that moves both persons toward everlasting life.

Then pray for him and invite the Holy Spirit into your bedroom.

I can do this, but he insists that if this is the route we take, he will be much less interested in sex and our marriage will take a turn for the worst. Or, at the very least, that we will be living our lives almost as sister and brother, or friends, due to his disbelief in this teaching of the church and my insistence upon it. He says that he can’t believe the church is really that “picky” about what we do in our bedroom, when there are people out there committing adultery, killing, lying, etc.

I have to admit, “svoboda’s” words above are comforting to me- that my husband and I are not unusual, or evil (not that anyone else is saying we’re evil), and that we should “embrace human nature,” not seek to suppress it. Also, I tend to hold out hope as well that “if the Church is given time she will incorporate new understandings about the good and importance of sexual pleasure (just because it is plesurable emotionally and physically) into her teaching on sex and marriage.” Of course, this person stated that he/she has left the church, and other posters disagree with his/her statements, as is to be expected. Anyway, maybe I’m just looking for someone to tell me that even if my husband and I continue our pattern of behavior, at least for a time, that God loves us anyway and will continue to help us to grow and learn. If this were the case, though, I would worry about going to confession and receiving the eucharist, as I’m sure these would not be acceptable for someone who has heard the church’s teaching and is actively not following it, even though I’d still be searching and trying to come to a conviction on way or another.
Sorry for the long post… this is making me crazy and I see no end in sight!! You all are very helpful, though!

 

[Lorarose]

Lorarose, have you read the whole thread?

Yes indeedy I have.

Yes, if her husband won’t read a book on the subject at her request, then I’d say that her marriage may have some deeper issues that need attention.

OK - so now her marriage may not be in more of a mess than she thought. (which is surefire way to scare someone) Maybe now there are deeper issues because he won’t read a book.

Have you considered another possibility?
Maybe their marriage is not a mess (or more of mess than she thought)
Maybe the fact a guy doesn’t want to read a book doesn’t indicate he has deep issues.

Maybe he is a normal guy faced with something new he doesn’t like. He loves his wife. He doesn’t cheat. He thinks himself a decent person and then along comes this bombshell.

Change doesn’t happen overnight, and most people are resistant to it at first…maybe if they ignore it, it will go away.
This sounds like it is still “new” with this couple - and it is entirely possible they are both reacting to this knowledge in normal ways.

But then again…I don’t know for sure, because I am not their priest - or their counselor - or a friend of theirs, so I cannot possibly judge this couple or the nature of their relationship.

You don’t think there are some problems here?

Maybe, maybe not…not my call to make.

You yourself suggested counseling.

Yes…because counselors require much more information from both individuals before they make conclusions.
They are in a much better position to identify problems and to describe how serious they are.

The Church’s teachings are designed to protect marriages from harm.

Sure they are…I just have a problem when some people take their interpretation of Church teaching, treat it like a “one size fits all” prescription, and deem themselves experts on marital relations.
That’s all.

 

[bear06]

OK - so now her marriage may not be in more of a mess than she thought. (which is surefire way to scare someone) Maybe now there are deeper issues because he won’t read a book.

Have you considered another possibility?
Maybe their marriage is not a mess (or more of mess than she thought)
Maybe the fact a guy doesn’t want to read a book doesn’t indicate he has deep issues.

Actually, no, I hadn’t thought that there is no problem. I’m pretty sure there is and I’m encouraging slick to look for the root of the problem.

Maybe he is a normal guy faced with something new he doesn’t like. He loves his wife. He doesn’t cheat. He thinks himself a decent person and then along comes this bombshell.

Slick is trying to tell him that she’s worried about their souls and he’s dismissing this concern without doing any investigating. I understand the concept because I’m prone to do this on non-religious issues.

Change doesn’t happen overnight, and most people are resistant to it at first…maybe if they ignore it, it will go away.
This sounds like it is still “new” with this couple - and it is entirely possible they are both reacting to this knowledge in normal ways.

Yeah, and?

But then again…I don’t know for sure, because I am not their priest - or their counselor - or a friend of theirs, so I cannot possibly judge this couple or the nature of their relationship.

This is why I used the word may. Slick, herself, already thinks there is a problem. That comes from her. I think further investigation needs to be done and your idea of talking to a priest is a good one. That said, if he won’t delve into the NFP thing via a book, he’s likely not to want to do this either. When the sky darkens and fills with clouds and the temperature drops, one can think that it just may rain.

Yes…because counselors require much more information from both individuals before they make conclusions.
They are in a much better position to identify problems and to describe how serious they are.

Again, right. And? I don’t think I tried to offer any solutions. I only offered suggestions which is what slick asked for.

Sure they are…I just have a problem when some people take their interpretation of Church teaching, treat it like a “one size fits all” prescription, and deem themselves experts on marital relations.
That’s all.

Exactly when did I do this? Geez. I’d hoped that this part of the conversation would cease. I personally think it’s getting the thread off-topic. If you don’t want to make any suggestions, don’t.

 

[Lorarose]

Actually, no, I hadn’t thought that there is no problem. I’m pretty sure there is and I’m encouraging slick to look for the root of the problem.

I didn’t ask you if you thought there was “no problem”
I asked if you considered the possibility her marriage is not a mess.
A man refusing to read a book doesn’t necessarily mean he has deep rooted problems - or that the marriage is a mess.
It could be a normal reaction from a guy who is being asked to come out of his comfort zone.
These things often take time - that a man does not immediately respond with an “OK dear - give me that book, and we’ll get to it right away” may indicate he is not a perfect man…but who is?

Slick is trying to tell him that she’s worried about their souls and he’s dismissing this concern without doing any investigating. I understand the concept because I’m prone to do this on non-religious issues.

You act as if this is the whole complete story.
I didn’t gather from Slick’s responses this is the entire story. In fact she included that he has shared his misgivings and his reasons for those misgivings.

Yeah, and?

Now THERE’S a helpful response.
I offer you a possible explanation where the guy may not have deep rooted probems - and this is all you have to say?

This is why I used the word may

So…chicken little says one day “the sky MAY be falling”.
It’s still assuming the worst and scaring people unnecessarily.

Slick, herself, already thinks there is a problem. That comes from her.

Yes she did…but the description of the marriage as a mess - souls being killed - deep rooted problems - marriages being ruined…that all came from you - not Slick.

Exactly when did I do this? Geez. I’d hoped that this part of the conversation would cease. I personally think it’s getting the thread off-topic. If you don’t want to make any suggestions, don’t.

If you can’t see the negative tone to your posts - there’s no point in discussing it further.
I have made suggestions - it isn’t a good idea for people to get marital advice from the internet.
And I don’t think a wife should assume the worst about her husband. Sometimes it takes some time and some prayer - and a positive outlook never hurt anyone.

 

[bear06]

there’s no point in discussing it further.

Agreement, it’s a beautiful thing.

 

[cheeto1]

It seems normal that a man wouldn’t want to read a book about
how to do something that he doesn’t want to do. But if you
ask him if he would please go to an NFP class with you and
just see what he thinks, that might work. Tell him it would mean
a lot to you. You don’t want to do anything you think is a sin, ask your confessor if unsure. People on a forum don’t really know your whole story.
– blessings on you…

 

[Palamite]

bear06,

If he is refusing to even look into it or read a book after you’ve told him your concerns,(wow! what a horrible sacrifice!) then you’re probably having more trouble than you think you are already.

I don’t think this is fair at all, and is a potentially dangerous opinion to pass along to this lady.

If my wife approached me today and said she’s been reading all of these “wonderful” Hare Krishna books, and tells me she want’s me to start living like them and only have sex (maximum) once a month, and only for the express purpose of having a baby, I’d probably look at her like she’s gone nuts too.

My point has little to do with what I personally think about the RC teaching on family planning in it’s particulars. Rather, I hope to illustrate how it is very possible for someone who is basically of good will (who are we to presume otherwise?) to be annoyed and scandalized when something radical and foreign like this is thrown at them from left field, especially in a matter so delicate.

 

[bear06]

Palamite:

bear06,

I don’t think this is fair at all, and is a potentially dangerous opinion to pass along to this lady.

If my wife approached me today and said she’s been reading all of these “wonderful” Hare Krishna books, and tells me she want’s me to start living like them and only have sex (maximum) once a month, and only for the express purpose of having a baby, I’d probably look at her like she’s gone nuts too.

My point has little to do with what I personally think about the RC teaching on family planning in it’s particulars. Rather, I hope to illustrate how it is very possible for someone who is basically of good will (who are we to presume otherwise?) to be annoyed and scandalized when something radical and foreign like this is thrown at them from left field, especially in a matter so delicate.

If I said this to my husband, he’d read the book and research the subject in order to show me the error of my ways out of fear for my soul. He wouldn’t just simply say, you’re wrong. It’s kind of like the way we read/study the book of Mormon to better equip ourselves to counter their arguments. When I present foreign material to my husband he doesn’t just say he doesn’t buy it and I don’t want to talk about it. It’s not exactly a sign of good communication. Look, most of us took hours of marriage prep where they taught us communication can make or break a marriage, yes? What if slick said to her husband “I will no longer consent to sex using ABC. End of discussion”? Would you find that peachy? Our Church doesn’t even say that that is the way to go in totality. They encourage us to continually discuss it with our spouse and make our concerns known. So, the thought that floats around in my head is that there is not just the problem of ABC, there is a problem with communication. What if it is a foreign thought or ABC is engrained into his nature? Does this mean that one shuts off communication? So many things revolve around communication in a marriage. If you don’t have that than that usually triggers a whole myriad of problems. If it is a problem and you don’t solve that, you have very little hope of solving other problems.

 

[Working_girl]

I feel so much of your pain. My husband I are currently having this exact same disagreement (and we’ve only been married a little over a year!) It is such a hard thing to go through because something in your heart is telling you that you are doing wrong, but yet this man you love who you want to please, wants you to do it in the worst way, saying that it’ll bring the two of you closer. It is an unbelievable heavy cross to bear. However, I am convinced that we must hold to our ground with the truth. Even though it’s hard and you’re afraid, do what is right. God will bless you for doing things the right way. I read a book a while back which said that we should look at our relationships with our spouses as possibly their only chance to get to heaven. Looking at things this way, you owe it to yourself to help him get there too. Growing in faith and grace is never easy. However, God gives us the strength. Ask Him to give you strength as you go through your own agony in the garden. My husband and I have been going to counseling and the therapist finally told him that he shouldn’t force me to do things his way (ie reaching our peaks without completing the marital act) because if I were to be forced into it, there would be resentment and eventually emotional withdrawl on my part. I do believe this. As horrible as the issue is right now, the issue will only get worse if I am forced into doing something that I feel is morally wrong in my heart. I have also tried giving my husband material in the hopes of convincing him to see the truth. (Christopher West’s book called “The Good News about Sex and Marriage” is a great resource that answers a lot of the tough questions that I’m sure he’s asking. You may want to look into that book.) I am so sad and upset over how this exact same issue is making our marriage a mess. I am hoping and praying that he will see the light and that we can have a good happy marriage together. I really don’t want to lose him. I really don’t know what else to do besides pray and fast. I have heard both of those have helped in converting people and I only pray for a miracle. I will pray for you as I pray for my own marriage. I will also be asking God to give you strength because this is a true test of faith. God has truly blessed you by opening your eyes to the truth. Your conversion wasn’t a coincidence. Pray the rosary for him. Pray to St. Rita (Saint of the Impossible who eventually ended up converting her husband through her prayers and sufferings.) Pray to Padre Pio and Our Lady of Perpetual Help. Two things that I have to constantly remind myself of as I go through this with you: 1. Always love and forgive him even when you feel he doesn’t love you back. 2. Pray always and never give up hope. Hang in there!

 

[Seatuck]

Please Read.

Good News About Sex and Marriage by Christopher West.

Theology of the Body by Pope John Paul 2- these are a group of homolies .

Love and Responsibility by Karol Wojtyla (ortherwise known as Pope John Paul 2)

canfp.org/

 

[slick4]

Working Girl,

Thank you SO much for your post- I will keep praying for you, too!

I hope I’m not getting too personal, but did you stop doing what you and your husband used to do, or that he wants you to do? I’m certain that God will somehow help my husband (and me) to see the truth, whether it takes a day or many years, but in the meantime, I don’t know what to do each time “the moment” comes up! I can tell myself that each initiation of an intimate act might result in normal marital relations, but I know in my heart the times when it most definitely will not. If I refuse him before things even get started, he becomes upset and wants to know what I am thinking, whether I’m “back on that idea” again. The close friends I have talked with about this think that I’m being much too extreme, and I have to admit that I still do not see how these intimate acts are not loving and unitive in nature. Having sex when you’re not fertile seems to be the same thing, regardless of where seed is spilled! I just don’t get it, but I don’t want to take a chance that this is truly not what God wants us to do! I also don’t want to be accused of picking and choosing the Church teachings I “want” to follow. Anyway, I don’t think that continuing this behavior and then confessing it every month is a good thing, if I know it will probably happen again, even if I have a feeling that it shouldn’t.

I also have many friends and family members who are quite liberal in their views… enough to deter me from trying to evangelize so many people at once! =)

 

[MomTo2]

Your husband’s fixation seems to me to be misplaced. I’m curious if he has issues with viewing pornography also. He seems to be attached to the imagery of what is common in that venue- just a thought. All I know is that if anything made me uncomfortable, my husband would not even think of requesting it or try to manipulate me. I’m really not trying to sound harsh- I really feel for you and your situation. It is a difficult cross to bear, to differ in such a sensitive opinion with your spouse, but this is obviously a crying out to you from God to save your soul. And since the ultimate purpose of marriage should be to aid in your spouse getting to Heaven, maybe it’s a cry out to him too. Listen to God’s voice in your heart. Do whatever you have to do to be loving but firm with your hubby and choose not to offend your Lord any more. Also, realize the great opportunities in the fertile times to connect in other ways- it’s a great way to recharge your batteries, so to speak. Play board games, go on dates, be loving in other ways. Give him a voice to come up with more creative ideas to get through the fertile times (non-sexual). The more you pray for him, the better. He’ll come around if God has anything to say about it!

 

[puppylove]

Wow! Am I ever glad I came back to this forum. Let me tell you a little about myself. I was practicing NPF in August 2004 when I got pg for my baby dd who was born last April. Since the baby was born we have had relations once. My husband is definitely afraid that I get pg again. We are 47 and 39 years old and he has 2 grown children from a previous marraige and I have a teenaged dd from a previous marriage. Our baby has brought so much joy to my life since the day I found out I was pg. I know having this baby was no accident. And if the Lord wishes it, I would have another, but DH has other ideas. He wants to have a V adn I don’t want him to because I know its a sin. It is also ruining our marraige. I am glad to read all the responses. I think God has brought me here!

May God bless you,

 

[LittleDeb]

Hi Slick,
One thing that might help you during this difficult time is the thought process you’re using. The Church is right about her teachings. So why She is right is something you really want to know.

During my checkered past one of the reasons I came back to the Truth of Church teachings is because of how those acts made me feel about myself. I wasn’t too worried about sin back then. Since you seem focused on sin right now it is a thought process about “what is wrong?” instead of on “what is right?” I am not saying don’t look at the sin. Those acts do not honor you, as a woman. They didn’t honor you even before you realized that they didn’t honor you. Nothing has changed in the acts.

I would suggest a different approach with your husband. Talk to him about how those acts always made you feel. Talk about how you just never really felt together with him. Be honest with yourself and with him. So many people try to claim that the acts of foreplay and the acts of oral sex are the same. They really aren’t. Foreplay is an anticipation, oral sex is a let-down. Foreplay is about unity, oral sex is about dominance. Foreplay is going somewhere, oral sex ends up nowhere.

Sins are sin because they are bad for us. They are not labels we wear, but actions (or ommisions) we do. Let go of that sin word for awhile. It is coming at your husband like a weapon. You didn’t just read a book and have your eyes suddenly opened. You read a book because your eyes were starting to open. Those actions always made you unhappy. Now you just know why. That is what you will want to communicate to your husband. Communicate that you want to live this way because you want to have an incredible intimate life with him. Let me testify: A chaste, holy marriage can make for the most incredible sex you ever thought possible! I do put the qualifier word *can *in there, because you do have to make the commitment to make it that way.

May God bless you, and bless your husband during this trying time.

 

[MomTo2]

LittleDeb:

Communicate that you want to live this way because you want to have an incredible intimate life with him. Let me testify: A chaste, holy marriage can make for the most incredible sex you ever thought possible! I do put the qualifier word *can *in there, because you do have to make the commitment to make it that way.

QUOTE]

I’ll second that! :clapping:

 

[cenpress]

Preamble: I hate it when people post such long diatribes, but I am only human after all, and as it turns out, pretty good at going on diatribes of my own. I’m sorry this is so long, but it needed to be written …

Slick,

Your husband is perfectly normal. How should I know? Well, because not much more than a month ago, I was right there, in the same exact place in which he finds himself now. And for me (at the time, at least), that was not a particularly easy place to be in.

Early January, my wife came to me with this aspect of Catholic teaching – this, after the two of us happily took part in such things (OS/MM) for a number of years. And I gave her all the same arguments I’m sure your husband is giving you. (Don’t blame him.) Like your husband, I saw these acts as beautiful gifts of love from one spouse to another … from husband to wife, from wife to husband. I explained (quite eloquently, might I add) precisely what my views on the matter were. I was convincing. I was poetic. I was even pretty emphatic and emotional.

But none of that mattered.

What it came down to was this: My wife felt in her heart that it was wrong. And given that, I couldn’t rightly ask her to do something against her moral will. It didn’t matter what I thought or felt … in her heart, my wife believed it (OS/MM) a sin against God, and so, though I disagreed, I surrendered myself to her will. (It was anything BUT easy.) But I did it. Then I got down on my knees and prayed many times for strength, for the light of Christ to be bestowed upon me, for the fog that was clouding my sense of what is right and what is wrong to lift so that I might be open fully to the Church and Her teachings.

And then it happened.

When at once, I found myself surrendering to the will of my wife, I realized more importantly, I was surrendering myself TO THE WILL OF GOD!

That first week, believe me, was as hard as they come. But it got easier, especially once I had that revelation. Because all of a sudden it wasn’t just the two of us in our bedroom. The Holy Spirit was there too. Trying our best to live by God’s will while enjoying our marital relations acted as a divine invitation for God to be there with us in those incredibly intimate moments. And it MORE than enriched them. It turned them blessed and holy.

My heart goes out to you and your husband, who I’m sure is a very good man. His desires for such things don’t make him evil, Slick. Far from it. He simply doesn’t understand in his heart what you are beginning to understand in yours. In time, perhaps he will. (My wife certainly helped me to understand such things in my heart.)

What helped me most, Slick, as I dealt with this was knowing that it wasn’t a matter of my wife trying to deny me a certain type of pleasure … but that it was rather, a matter of my wife trying her best TO PLEASE GOD. Something we do together now. Something every wife ought to help her husband do, and likewise, every husband, his wife. After all, we are here to help one another get to heaven. Aren’t we?

I can only pray for the two of you, Slick. If you or your husband wish to write me a private message, please do so. I will be more than willing to help in any way I can. In the meantime, DO pick up a copy of Christopher West’s The Good News About Sex and Marriage – but not as a book, GET THE CD. It blew my mind and opened my eyes … and in turn, my soul. I hope it will do the same for the two of you.

Peace and blessings to you both.