What to do when visions clash?

[Della]

Please forgvie the length of this post. I was part of a Lay Carmelite community that disassociated ourselves from our order because of serious disagreements over new statutes that were imposed on us. I won’t go into that because it’s not relevant to my present dilemma.

Another community in our area did the same thing. Naturally, we banded together with them in our desire to return to the simpler, and we believed, truer form of statutes for laity with Carmelite spirituality. So far so good.

Our archbishop, though wrote us to say that we would not be a lay order anymore but something quite different. What the “something quite different” would be he didn’t specify, but left that up to us to work out.

We got together with the canon lawyer of our archdiocese who was very gracious to us and explained that we could become a lay association, but not a religious order. My group of people got the message and so caught a new vision of what we could be. The other group didn’t. They still see us as if we were a lay order and the statutes they wrote reflect that.

Our group’s statutes are quite different in direction. We see the possiblity of having a lay association open to all Catholics who wish to learn about and practice Carmelite spirituality without professions or vows or other such trappings of religiosity. So, our two groups cannot agree.

We tried to come to mutual agreement, but they ran right over us and ignored us (they have a very forminable woman in their group who has run it no matter who has actually been elected as their director), and now their version is what is going to the canon lawyer (who isn’t aware of this ongoing disagreement, but who has said we will no doubt be getting together again to iron out any differences). What, besides praying, should we do?

 

[Joysong]

Geesh, Della,

This sounds very strange to me, since Carmel is Carmel, and the lay rule is pretty universal. Have you contacted your Provincial?

Why would your group not wish to make profession? Nobody is required to take the vow, unless they have made final profession for life and wish to bind themselves to the Rule by a solemn vow, which would make it more meritorious. Not all of our people do this, but only a few.

It is difficult to give advice since the details are not very clear, but I think your Provincial should be able to help you in these matters. Are you at liberty to share the new statutes? Are these impositions by your local chapter? The Rule should be universal, but I agree, some adopt statutes that pertain to the particular community, and this by election of majority vote.

God bless you ladies as you try to come to a good solution.

 

[blessedstar]

I find this disunity a very odd set of circumstances.

We are not called to Carmel to run our own show. We are called to follow the rule of Carmel be that OCDS or O’Carm.

Sometimes due to the mechanics of a given Chapter minor variations are made in the details of the ‘running’ of the Chapter but such devations should not occur nor be promoted as to divide the Chapter.

I am a little confused about this.

If it were me in your shoes I would be looking for a Chapter to join that is faithful to the professed rule as laid down in the handbook and disassociate myself from the disunity you have described.

In my prayers.

 

[Della]

Thank you for your responses, but I have apparently failed to get across the situation I am talking about. That’s not surprising considering our community went through purgatory over the new Carmelite statutes for lay members for about 4 years before we simply had to leave the order to have any peace of mind. And yes, we did all we could to try to conform to them and to understand what was expected of us. We got no help from our Provincial, only childish scoldings and ridiculous censures.

Moving on to the present, the canon lawyer made it clear that Carmelite spirituality is not limited to either Carmelite Order. Anyone may followed Carmelite spirituality who cares to, with or without being attached to any order.

We are trying to form a lay association, more along the lines of the Blue Army or others like it. And we don’t want to be members of the Blue Army only because their focus is on Fatima, and while that is fine, we don’t want to limited to that devotion.

The statutes we are attempting to write are for a lay association not a lay order.

All I am asking is how to deal with another group who want to be united with our group but only on their terms. Please direct any answers just to that question. That’s really all I need help with. Thank you!

 

[blessedstar]

People with an agenda often won’t or can’t compromise and then there is no middle ground, there is no meeting place to unite and so each must stand to their own convictions and conscience.

I know you say that you don’t wish to discuss any further the divisions that have you outside of the Order of Carmel, but I would like you to go back to the early days of you discerning your calling to the Carmelite Order and your profession to be faithful to that by obedience and chastity. Trace the course of events that lead up to the present day and make a clear assessment. You may have already done this, but I am asking you to do it again and I am asking you to pray a great deal before you go any further down this road you are now travelling.

I am asking you to consider another Chapter. Because division like this rarely comes to any good and once there is division only further division sets in as you are currently experiencing.

Look to the bigger picture and keep out of the equation any personal preferences and the preferences of others. Spiritual discernment is not about personal preference as you know.

In my prayers

 

[Joysong]

Dear Della,

I am having difficulty understanding how you mean “statutes,” for these have very little to do with the Rule, but are simply the form of government a local chapter votes on. Examples would be how much to charge for dues, how often to hold professions, how to govern the meetings, etc.

If these are the matters of disagreement where neither group is able to come to consensus, then you need to do what we do in parish council meetings … table them and continue to pray until we do.

After the length of time your groups have spent in deliberation, it seems to me that it is already fractured and neither side is able to reconcile the differences. Isn’t that what happened in the original Carmel with St. Teresa? What resulted was two separate orders, the mitigated and the discalced. You ladies may ultimately need to face that possibility. I am at a loss as to how else to advise you.

However, if the main disagreement is over any portion of the Rule itself, then maybe those in the group do not have the vocation to Carmel, but to some other calling that God may be giving you.

Here is a comment from the Profile of a Secular Carmelite:

If a person’s involvement in other movements does not interfere with that person’s commitment to Carmel and that person does not introduce elements that are not compatible with OCDS spirituality to the community, then there is generally no problem. It is when the person distracts the community from its own purpose and style of spiritual life that problems begin.

 

[Joysong]

The statutes we are attempting to write are for a lay association not a lay order.

After sleeping on it, and coming back to your words with a fresh perspective, Della, this says to me that you have already left the order and want to form a new group that is centered on aspects of Carmelite spirituality, yet not having the full applications of the Order’s Rule.

If you have not made final promises in the Order, that is not a problem, for that is the very reason we have a good number of years to discern and test the vocation with daily living.

All I am asking is how to deal with another group who want to be united with our group but only on their terms. Please direct any answers just to that question. That’s really all I need help with. Thank you!

One of the aspects of Carmel is community life. You have no doubt been a member long enough to know that one may receive a vocation to live the spirituality, but it must be lived in the context of community. And that community must “fit” both the aspirant and the existing members. The community votes to accept the new aspirant after both have had ample opportunity to see if the “fit” is a blessing for all.

It pains me to say that we have had to reject a couple of aspirants whose personality and characteristics were disruptive to the common good. I don’t have a sense that your other group is leaning towards your group’s spirit, and there will be a continual knocking of heads and lack of unity, especially since your common beginnings are fraught with this much disagreement.

I think you probably know in your heart that this is a red flag, but maybe our encouragement and insight is able to reinforce what you already sense.

In Christ,
Carole

 

[FCEGM]

Dear Della,

I am having difficulty understanding how you mean “statutes,” for these have very little to do with the Rule, but are simply the form of government a local chapter votes on. Examples would be how much to charge for dues, how often to hold professions, how to govern the meetings, etc.

If these are the matters of disagreement where neither group is able to come to consensus, then you need to do what we do in parish council meetings … table them and continue to pray until we do.

Carole, I think perhaps Della might be referring to problems arising from the application of this within the T. O. Carm. (not O.C.D.S.):

Family Life in Carmel

1. The Third Order of Carmel is divided into communities, called by various names viz. groups, associations, chapters etc. These are run by lay people according to the norms of this present Rule and the statutes of each community, under the supreme direction of the superiors of the Order or their delegates.[102]

1. According to an old tradition, some members of the Third Order are called to live in communities which are governed by particular statutes.

 

[Della]

Carole, I think perhaps Della might be referring to problems arising from the application of this within the T. O. Carm. (not O.C.D.S.):

Yes, thank you, Frances. I didn’t make that clear–my bad.

I don’t have a sense that your other group is leaning towards your group’s spirit, and there will be a continual knocking of heads and lack of unity, especially since your common beginnings are fraught with this much disagreement.

I think you probably know in your heart that this is a red flag, but maybe our encouragement and insight is able to reinforce what you already sense.

In Christ,
Carole

This is the heart of the problem. The other group is run by a woman who got it started and started other communities, as well. So, she thinks of herself as some kind of mother of the order, even though our group has not been a part of hers for many years now. No matter who is elected as their director, this woman runs everything. It’s so bad, their current director didn’t even know who her fellow officers were!

We don’t want to be led around by the nose by this woman for the rest of our lives, and yet, our group is too small to stand alone and we have appealed to the archbishop as two groups, supposedly united in our desires. We were united until this gal wrote up statutes that are nothing more than a stripped down version of the old Carmelite statutes instead of those of a lay association. She wants professions and vows and all sorts of other things we feel are unnecessary for a lay association.

Anyway, at this point our community is seriously considering giving up and disbanding. We’re not young people, and a lot of us have health issues and family commitments, etc. It’s been 4 years of trying to stay the course and we have simply run out of gas.

 

[Joysong]

Thanks, Della,

I have a better picture now, though I am utterly unfamiliar with the T.O. Carm’s spirituality or statutes. It sounds to me like this woman is trying to form the O’Carm’s into OCDS’s, and that is not your call, from what I read in your posts.

You mentioned that she wrote the statutes. Didn’t she place these for approval of the group? Do you not vote upon things that are for your governing? It sounds like a dictatorship of an overly zealous person who is failing to listen to the spirit of the majority. Not very Christ-like, IMO.

On a positive note, God does see your struggles, and it may be good to keep in contact with one another just for edification and strengthening. You know the old saying how the wolf delights in scattering the sheep. Many isolates are still living the spirit of Carmel, so even though you may have to ultimately disband, I feel confident you will still have Carmel in your heart.

My prayers remain,
Carole

 

[FCEGM]

. . .Anyway, at this point our community is seriously considering giving up and disbanding. We’re not young people, and a lot of us have health issues and family commitments, etc. It’s been 4 years of trying to stay the course and we have simply run out of gas.

Would your group be amenable to forming a study group without any official recognition by the diocese? Since my move from California to North Carolina I’ve been without an OCDS Community, but I did form an unofficial study group for those interested in learning about - and applying - Carmelite spirituality. We’ve been doing this for two years and it’s been very successful. I know it might be difficult to realize the cohesion that comes from an official status, but this might be the most workable solution for you and you might draw others to the group who have the interest in Carmelite spirituality, but don’t necessarily have a vocation to the Order.

 

[Della]

Thanks, Della,

I have a better picture now, though I am utterly unfamiliar with the T.O. Carm’s spirituality or statutes. It sounds to me like this woman is trying to form the O’Carm’s into OCDS’s, and that is not your call, from what I read in your posts.

You mentioned that she wrote the statutes. Didn’t she place these for approval of the group? Do you not vote upon things that are for your governing? It sounds like a dictatorship of an overly zealous person who is failing to listen to the spirit of the majority. Not very Christ-like, IMO.

On a positive note, God does see your struggles, and it may be good to keep in contact with one another just for edification and strengthening. You know the old saying how the wolf delights in scattering the sheep. Many isolates are still living the spirit of Carmel, so even though you may have to ultimately disband, I feel confident you will still have Carmel in your heart.

My prayers remain,
Carole

It’s quite complex (aren’t all such situations always complex?). But suffice it to say that none of our objections were given a fair hearing (even though we were in the majority) and the priest facilitating the meeting between our two groups leaned her way, even though he hasn’t a clue about Carmel or lay associations, etc. He just wanted us to get on with it and come to an agreement. So, we got railroaded into things we don’t agree with.

Our calling in Carmel is to the simplicity of the “little way” not to trying to be quasi-nuns or something. It’s just all gotten to be too much, you know what I mean?

And thank you, too, Frances for your kind suggestion. If we keep our group together that just the kind of group we will be. The other group can pretend they are nuns if they want to, but we simply don’t want to go that route.

 

[Joysong]

the priest facilitating the meeting between our two groups leaned her way, even though he hasn’t a clue about Carmel or lay associations, etc. He just wanted us to get on with it and come to an agreement. So, we got railroaded into things we don’t agree with.

I get the idea from your words that your group gave assent, in order to “get on with it.” Assent being established, therefore, the woman in charge has a legitimate basis for asking that the group comply with that which was ratified. It is sad that you all lament afterwards, that which should have rightfully been withheld at that time, priest or no priest.

We see the possiblity of having a lay association open to all Catholics who wish to learn about and practice Carmelite spirituality without professions or vows or other such trappings of religiosity.

The other group can pretend they are nuns if they want to, but we simply don’t want to go that route.

On behalf of third order Carmelites who may be members of this forum or just lurking, I think it is wise to post the correct idea of Carmel. It is not that a person takes on “trappings of religiosity and pretends to be a nun.” That is very misleading and it is possible you were misinformed about the vocation. I realize you may not be motivated to research the lay order’s Rule, but if you ever feel inclined, ocd.pcn.net/ocds_Aen.htm. [Scroll down to OCDS CONSTITUTIONS]

I think the word “professions” is the misnomer, and I have been guilty of using it also, but the reality is that one makes a promise. First on a temporary basis after two years of formation, then for life three years later, called “definitive promise.” These do not bind under pain of sin like the vow which some members take. No member sees their role as living like a religious, but rather as leaven within the Body of Christ to do the Father’s will and live the spirit of Carmel in the world.

Naturally, we banded together with them in our desire to return to the simpler, and we believed, truer form of statutes for laity with Carmelite spirituality.

This is puzzling to me what the “simpler and truer” form of Carmelite spirituality means, but I assume you mean that the binding of promises is not there. I’m ok with your not needing to explain this, and I don’t mean to pry. But after considering all of your messages in this thread, I can agree that you ladies are being called to a different walk that exists outside of either the O’Carm’s or the OCDS’s. God bless you in your efforts to follow Him.

Carole

 

[Della]

I get the idea from your words that your group gave assent, in order to “get on with it.” Assent being established, therefore, the woman in charge has a legitimate basis for asking that the group comply with that which was ratified. It is sad that you all lament afterwards, that which should have rightfully been withheld at that time, priest or no priest.

I think you would have to have been there to fully appreciate the way we were treated. I don’t want to say anything bad about a priest, so I really cannot say more about it. Having said that, our new statutes are not carved in stone and no one made any promise to abide by them until they are finalized and approved by our archbishop, so we have plenty of wiggle room left and time to correct things we want corrected.

On behalf of third order Carmelites who may be members of this forum or just lurking, I think it is wise to post the correct idea of Carmel. It is not that a person takes on “trappings of religiosity and pretends to be a nun.” That is very misleading and it is possible you were misinformed about the vocation. I realize you may not be motivated to research the lay order’s Rule, but if you ever feel inclined, ocd.pcn.net/ocds_Aen.htm. [Scroll down to OCDS CONSTITUTIONS]

We are not OCD, so those constitutions do not apply to us. The new statutes for O Carms are what drove us away, and why we cannot remain within in it. They are only available by purchasing a book of over 200 pages at the cost of over $30. Our original rule and statutes, including rosary meditations and novenas and hymns was only about 50 pages. By that alone you can see how much things were changed and forced on us to the point of taking away our rights as Catholics let alone as Lay Carmelites. It’s made us very sad and broken our hearts not to mention feeling quite betrayed and alienated by our superiors who did nothing to help us when we had legitimate concerns but treated us like rebellious children for suggesting their new statutes, of which there were new ones nearly every month, weren’t necessary nor helpful to us as lay people.

I think the word “professions” is the misnomer, and I have been guilty of using it also, but the reality is that one makes a promise. First on a temporary basis after two years of formation, then for life three years later, called “definitive promise.” These do not bind under pain of sin like the vow which some members take. No member sees their role as living like a religious, but rather as leaven within the Body of Christ to do the Father’s will and live the spirit of Carmel in the world.

Our rule and statutes always had a rite of profession. And we didn’t see ourselves as religious, either. It’s this one gal I wrote about who has always longed to think of herself as some kind of religious, which is what colors everything and everyone in her group. We regret ever getting involved with her at all, at this point. And frankly, we are fed up with the whole thing.

This is puzzling to me what the “simpler and truer” form of Carmelite spirituality means, but I assume you mean that the binding of promises is not there. I’m ok with your not needing to explain this, and I don’t mean to pry. But after considering all of your messages in this thread, I can agree that you ladies are being called to a different walk that exists outside of either the O’Carm’s or the OCDS’s. God bless you in your efforts to follow Him.

Carole

Indeed, it is hard to explain what “simpler and truer” means when you can have no clear idea of what we’ve been going through. That’s not your fault, of course. I guess I shouldn’t have brought it up at all, but we’re in such pain over all of this. We just want to have Carmelite spirituality without having to make promises or follow directives or go over lengthy statutes that mean nothing to our lives. All we want is to live our baptismal vows in the light and spirit of Carmel. Which is why we wanted to form a lay association instead of being within an order.

Thank you for your good wishes. God bless you!