What to do with a Muslim friend?

[jonbhorton]

Like I said, I’ve read from reputable sources some prophecies of Our Lady’s that unless a person with “sufficient knowledge” of Catholicism chooses to follow it, he or she will be condemned to hell after death. If this is true (and Our Lady doesn’t lie) then his soul is in very grave danger. As for the reason of my belief that Mohammed is now in Heaven, it is for several: the first, some Islamic education in my youth that impressed upon me how pious Muhammad was. I do not believe that God would intentionally mislead a good man. Second, I actually have been graced by the friendship of Muslims. They are generally honest, good people whose discipline in conforming to their five times a day prayer is very admirable. I don’t think that God would condemn them to hell just for following what they think is right GIVEN that they are sufficiently ignorant of Christianity. Back to Mohammed, my guess is that God intended for the Islam religion to be founded and that Mohammed, while knowing about Christianity, enjoys some special grace towards the salvation of his soul. The Bible itself states, “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, compassion on whom I will have compassion.” God doesn’t have to play by our, Catholic, rules that he set down for our edification and safety. He can save whom he wills to save, IF he wills. God bless you.

So basically, you’re ignoring actual history, koran, hadith and replacing it all with some sort of unicorn and pixie dust inundated fantasy land wherein the salvific nature of the mysterious Body of Christ gets turned into false ecumenism and outright syncretism, with the potential to delve into Chrislam, if not already there?

The Church’s position is not articulated in your posts, not even by a long shot.

If mohammed is in heaven, it ain’t through mohammedanism but through Christ- the same Christ he explicitly denies throughout the koran and hadith. We cannot know this and all information otherwise points to mohammed, AT BEST, being in purgatory, and in reality, likely destined for Hell. I cannot say this is the case with certitude, though I can highly surmise. You express with certitude the same concept you deny- telling God who God saves and condemns. I’m just looking at it from the perspective of what IS known.

I’m not trying to be a jerk, not at all. But you are not expressing anything other than a complete twisting of the actual Church teaching found in Lumen Gentium and Nostrae Aetate, along with outright denying all history up to those two documents.

My problem is with mohammedanism and those who subject themselves fully to it, not every single person who thinks they’re mohammedan.

 

[Catholic1954]

Despite being raised in a deeply Muslim country I have been a devout practicing Catholic since youth. I am worried about one of my best friends who is a Muslim despite going to school in a Roman Catholic college in his youth (his father is Catholic, his mother Muslim) is a devout Muslim. While I have no doubts that Islam is a genuine religion and some devout Muslims including their prophet Mohammed are now in Heaven, I worry about my friend as I have heard some prophecies of Our Lady’s that people who get sufficient exposure of Christianity must follow it or be condemned to hell after death. I am more than sure that he has had more than his share (he went to Saint Mary’s college and remember, his father is a Catholic) and am as a consequence deeply worried about his soul. Can anyone suggest to me effective prayers for his conversion, maybe a specific prayer or a specific saint? Thank you very much in advance and God bless you all.

If you are looking for a prayer for your friend, nothing beats the rosary. St. Monica is good to pray to for conversion of hearts, or St. Rita, the saint of the impossible or St. Jude. I also like St. Paul. No one knows about conversion like him, he expirenced it and preached it for the rest of his life.

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

So basically, you’re ignoring actual history, koran, hadith and replacing it all with some sort of unicorn and pixie dust inundated fantasy land wherein the salvific nature of the mysterious Body of Christ gets turned into false ecumenism and outright syncretism, with the potential to delve into Chrislam, if not already there?

The Church’s position is not articulated in your posts, not even by a long shot.

If mohammed is in heaven, it ain’t through mohammedanism but through Christ- the same Christ he explicitly denies throughout the koran and hadith. We cannot know this and all information otherwise points to mohammed, AT BEST, being in purgatory, and in reality, likely destined for Hell. I cannot say this is the case with certitude, though I can highly surmise. You express with certitude the same concept you deny- telling God who God saves and condemns. I’m just looking at it from the perspective of what IS known.

I’m not trying to be a jerk, not at all. But you are not expressing anything other than a complete twisting of the actual Church teaching found in Lumen Gentium and Nostrae Aetate, along with outright denying all history up to those two documents.

My problem is with mohammedanism and those who subject themselves fully to it, not every single person who thinks they’re mohammedan.

Honestly, I don’t know how many times I have to express that I am a devout follower of Christianity to you, and I mean that in every sense of the word. I pray and go to church twice a week and in no way does anyone have the right or even the case to call me a “syncretist”. You expressed your belief that I am in need of intercessory prayer, I have denied this need and given good reasons why not. Case closed. No need to pursue evangelizing with me, I have already been “evangelised” by my parents, since birth at that.

 

[Mickey]

You expressed your belief that I am in need of intercessory prayer, I have denied this need and given good reasons why not.

Everyone is in need of intercessory prayer…there is no down side. As a Roman Catholic, you should know that.

 

[OraLabora]

Honestly, I don’t know how many times I have to express that I am a devout follower of Christianity to you, and I mean that in every sense of the word. I pray and go to church twice a week and in no way does anyone have the right or even the case to call me a “syncretist”. You expressed your belief that I am in need of intercessory prayer, I have denied this need and given good reasons why not. Case closed. No need to pursue evangelizing with me, I have already been “evangelised” by my parents, since birth at that.

The problem is that on this forum we are attempting religious dialogue way above our pay grade. A couple of years ago in Rome I heard a talk by Msgr. Andrew V. Tanya-anan, Undersecretary of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue. Really as laity we should be confining ourselves to the “dialogue of life” that is living side by side with those of other faiths, trying to find common ground to live as a community, such as working on common projects like building schools and hospitals. The type of dialogue attempted here isn’t even really dialogue, it is talking past each other and it if we carry that over to our neighbours of different faith, we won’t really achieve anything constructive. Dialogue about doctrinal issues really should take place among people well-formed in theology. It may come as a shock but there are brilliant Muslim, Jewish and Protestant theologians as well, with whom our own brilliant theologians can dialogue, and they can all try to figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin together. Because what really matters is how our faith helps us grow in holiness and helps us achieve inner transformation.

When the untrained try to engage in doctrinal dialogue, hurt feelings are almost inevitable and the result is often to push back the cause we’re trying to promote. If we want to evangelize others, we should do so by leading holy lives ourselves. Evangelize yes. Proselytize, no. Think about the difference. That said, Catholics are not alone in being able to lead holy lives. We don’t hold the monopoly on holiness, and nor are incapable of great depravity as the sexual scandals in the Church should have proven to all by now.

When we start to throw around insults like “syncretist” to people who dare show a modicum of tolerance, we really are showing how little we are, and how much we really need to grow in Christian charity.

So I can understand how you must feel, but please don’t let it get to you and continue to fight the good fight in favour of religious tolerance, for which the world will be a better place.

Everyone is in need of intercessory prayer…there is no down side. As a Roman Catholic, you should know that.

Yep that’s true. But there’s a big difference between saying “I keep you in my prayers” when saying goodbye to a friend, and saying “I think you’re full of it and you need my prayers to finally see it my way”, which is what I think was going on here. The latter is no more than a thinly veiled insult, is uncharitable, and is arrogant. Something we seem to think is OK with the anonymity of the Internet but which I’ll bet dollars to donuts nobody dares say to a friend or co-worker.

 

[Mickey]

But there’s a big difference between saying “I keep you in my prayers” when saying goodbye to a friend, and saying “I think you’re full of it and you need my prayers to finally see it my way”, which is what I think was going on here. The latter is no more than a thinly veiled insult, is uncharitable, and is arrogant. Something we seem to think is OK with the anonymity of the Internet but which I’ll bet dollars to donuts nobody dares say to a friend or co-worker.

If I’m not mistaken…one poster wrote something in support of mohammedism…and declaring something to the effect that he is sure that Mohammed is in heaven. Another poster came out against the support of mohammedism and said he would pray for him. Instead of lashing out at the idea of intercessory prayer…the gesture should have been returned in kind.

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

If I’m not mistaken…one poster wrote something in support of mohammedism…and declaring something to the effect that he is sure that Mohammed is in heaven. Another poster came out against the support of mohammedism and said he would pray for him. Instead of lashing out at the idea of intercessory prayer…the gesture should have been returned in kind.

If I were a non-Catholic, or a syncretist, I might have found the gesture touching. As it is, I’m a full Roman Catholic, born and raised, and as a result was more than mildly insulted. The idea that I can’t be a Christian just because I believe that some Muslims are now in heaven is preposterous, especially as I believe in and follow all the tenets of the Catholic faith.

 

[SaintPatrick333]

Yes, of course Islam is a genuine religion and of course the great prophet Mohammed is in Heaven.

Suuuuure. Him and Hitler are playing blackjack with Jesus as we speak.

I’m not God. I don’t presume to be the deciding factor on whether or not Mohammed is in heaven or not. But if we are to trust in Scriptures and the Tradition of our Church then the answer is 99.9999999% absolutely not. The man, whether he was aware of it or not, was a heretic. You can not say someone who preached against Christ is in Heaven. That’s asinine. If Mohammed is in heaven then we should all abandon the Catholic Church and join Islam. Then we could all have nine year old wives and slaughter christian infidels for not worshipping the one true Allah.

Sorry for the uncharitable post but I am upset seeing these pro mohammed responses from “catholics”. How can you people be so comfortable standing with someone who ended up being an agent of satan. An angel visited him alright, I’m sure of that. But it wasn’t Gabriel.

 

[Mickey]

If I were a non-Catholic, or a syncretist, I might have found the gesture touching.

In all fairness, your statement proclaiming Islam to be a “genuine religion” could be construed as a syncretistic statement.

The idea that I can’t be a Christian just because I believe that some Muslims are now in heaven is preposterous.

But of course no one has a clue as to whether anyone is in heaven or hell.

 

[Trebor135]

The problem is that on this forum we are attempting religious dialogue way above our pay grade. A couple of years ago in Rome I heard a talk by Msgr. Andrew V. Tanya-anan, Undersecretary of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue. Really as laity we should be confining ourselves to the “dialogue of life” that is living side by side with those of other faiths, trying to find common ground to live as a community, such as working on common projects like building schools and hospitals. The type of dialogue attempted here isn’t even really dialogue, it is talking past each other and it if we carry that over to our neighbours of different faith, we won’t really achieve anything constructive. Dialogue about doctrinal issues really should take place among people well-formed in theology. It may come as a shock but there are brilliant Muslim, Jewish and Protestant theologians as well, with whom our own brilliant theologians can dialogue, and they can all try to figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin together. Because what really matters is how our faith helps us grow in holiness and helps us achieve inner transformation.

When the untrained try to engage in doctrinal dialogue, hurt feelings are almost inevitable and the result is often to push back the cause we’re trying to promote. If we want to evangelize others, we should do so by leading holy lives ourselves. Evangelize yes. Proselytize, no. Think about the difference. That said, Catholics are not alone in being able to lead holy lives. We don’t hold the monopoly on holiness, and nor are incapable of great depravity as the sexual scandals in the Church should have proven to all by now.

When we start to throw around insults like “syncretist” to people who dare show a modicum of tolerance, we really are showing how little we are, and how much we really need to grow in Christian charity.

So I can understand how you must feel, but please don’t let it get to you and continue to fight the good fight in favour of religious tolerance, for which the world will be a better place.

Being charitable toward and tolerant of our neighbour is a very noble goal which Christians are called to pursue with zeal.

But some among us are also called to be lay apologists for Christ. Christian minorities have been living lives of great holiness in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Palestine for a number of centuries now, but how many Muslims have been converted by witnessing their example? To the best of my knowledge, the numbers are very small.

Theology can be dense, but if we approach the study of the issues dividing Christians from Muslims with dedication and humility, we can make progress.

Christians cannot leave it to their theologians to discuss the doctrinal matters with Muslims in courtesy and honesty. Evangelization, done properly, is critical to the effort to save souls.

 

[Sam_777]

(his father is Catholic, his mother Muslim)

that marriage is invalid in Islam according to Quran 2:221, a non-muslim man cannot marry a muslim woman !!!

 

[wwolverine]

Like I said, I’ve read from reputable sources some prophecies of Our Lady’s that unless a person with “sufficient knowledge” of Catholicism chooses to follow it, he or she will be condemned to hell after death. If this is true (and Our Lady doesn’t lie) then his soul is in very grave danger. **As for the reason of my belief that Mohammed is now in Heaven, it is for several: the first, some Islamic education in my youth that impressed upon me how pious Muhammad was. I do not believe that God would intentionally mislead a good man. **Second, I actually have been graced by the friendship of Muslims. They are generally honest, good people whose discipline in conforming to their five times a day prayer is very admirable. I don’t think that God would condemn them to hell just for following what they think is right GIVEN that they are sufficiently ignorant of Christianity. **Back to Mohammed, my guess is that God intended for the Islam religion to be founded and that Mohammed, while knowing about Christianity, enjoys some special grace towards the salvation of his soul. **The Bible itself states, “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, compassion on whom I will have compassion.” God doesn’t have to play by our, Catholic, rules that he set down for our edification and safety. He can save whom he wills to save, IF he wills. God bless you.

Thanks for your response. I believe you are a Catholic. So now you tell me, Is the Holy Bible Wrong? Catholics believe that it’s a word of God, is the God that Catholics believe a lying God?

Holy Bible in its four Gospels and also is foretold in OT, that Jesus dies on the Cross to redeem mankind. You may have read the four accounts in the four Gospels, which clearly show the different stages untill the death of Jesus, and than the resurrection, and finally Jesus’s ascension in Heaven. What does the Quran say about this? that its a lie, Jesus never died on the Cross. If the Quran is right, than the Holy Bible is lying, and hence Catholicism is a fake religion.

I hope you will answer my question.

God Bless

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

Thanks for your response. I believe you are a Catholic. So now you tell me, Is the Holy Bible Wrong? Catholics believe that it’s a word of God, is the God that Catholics believe a lying God?

Holy Bible in its four Gospels and also is foretold in OT, that Jesus dies on the Cross to redeem mankind. You may have read the four accounts in the four Gospels, which clearly show the different stages untill the death of Jesus, and than the resurrection, and finally Jesus’s ascension in Heaven. What does the Quran say about this? that its a lie, Jesus never died on the Cross. If the Quran is right, than the Holy Bible is lying, and hence Catholicism is a fake religion.

I hope you will answer my question.

God Bless

I believe that the Bible is right and the Qur’an’s contradictions of the Holy Writ are wrong. I will go no further on the issue as my beliefs regarding how God deals with Islam and Muslims could be mistakenly construed by some here as blasphemous, and am in no mood for debates, and so I apologise that I cannot explain further. I can offer you one thing, though, and that is that I am no syncretist, so have no fear for me in that regard. God bless you and yours.

Your brother in the Catholic faith,

Yehuda Dion

 

[jakasaki]

that marriage is invalid in Islam according to Quran 2:221, a non-muslim man cannot marry a muslim woman !!!

Sam, somehow I knew you would chime in with the above, which is the reason, I didn’t post the quran passage…

 

[OraLabora]

Being charitable toward and tolerant of our neighbour is a very noble goal which Christians are called to pursue with zeal.

But some among us are also called to be lay apologists for Christ. Christian minorities have been living lives of great holiness in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Palestine for a number of centuries now, but how many Muslims have been converted by witnessing their example? To the best of my knowledge, the numbers are very small.

Theology can be dense, but if we approach the study of the issues dividing Christians from Muslims with dedication and humility, we can make progress.

Christians cannot leave it to their theologians to discuss the doctrinal matters with Muslims in courtesy and honesty. Evangelization, done properly, is critical to the effort to save souls.

Apologetics is not evangilizing, it is proselytizing. Most of us here are not pros at it, myself included. Apologetics, and all forms proselytizing, are not dialogue.

I really think apologetics should be mainly to help Catholics better understand their faith, to help catechumens along their path and to win Internet debates

We should be very discreet in how we deal with our non RC neighbors and acquaintances. Dialogue with them should be to explore common ground between us which help break down barriers of fear and suspicion. That is our role as the laity. That and leading holy lives so that our faith appears authentic and attractive.

Amateur apologetics is very touchy and if we blow it and drive someone away we will be called to account for our failure on judgement day. Think about it. It’s why I don’t proselytize.

 

[Trebor135]

Apologetics is not evangilizing, it is proselytizing. Most of us here are not pros at it, myself included. Apologetics, and all forms proselytizing, are not dialogue.

I really think apologetics should be mainly to help Catholics better understand their faith, to help catechumens along their path and to win Internet debates

We should be very discreet in how we deal with our non RC neighbors and acquaintances. Dialogue with them should be to explore common ground between us which help break down barriers of fear and suspicion. That is our role as the laity. That and leading holy lives so that our faith appears authentic and attractive.

Amateur apologetics is very touchy and if we blow it and drive someone away we will be called to account for our failure on judgement day. Think about it. It’s why I don’t proselytize.

I understand your concerns, particularly about the account we will have to give on Judgment Day for the fruits of our labour, whether sweet or bitter.

But lay proselytizing is not destined to failure–if we study, pray, and seek guidance from a spiritual adviser. With God nothing is impossible.

Again, I must ask:

Christian minorities have been living lives of great holiness in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Palestine for a number of centuries now, but how many Muslims have been converted solely by witnessing this example and without ever having the truths of the Christian faith explained and defended to them with kindness and intellectual rigour?

 

[OraLabora]

I understand your concerns, particularly about the account we will have to give on Judgment Day for the fruits of our labour, whether sweet or bitter.

But lay proselytizing is not destined to failure–if we study, pray, and seek guidance from a spiritual adviser. With God nothing is impossible.

Again, I must ask:

Christian minorities have been living lives of great holiness in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Palestine for a number of centuries now, but how many Muslims have been converted solely by witnessing this example and without ever having the truths of the Christian faith explained and defended to them with kindness and intellectual rigour?

Explained by whom? Well-trained clergy or ill-prepared laity?

I ask: how do the religious orders evangelize? By service, not by argument.

 

[jonbhorton]

Explained by whom? Well-trained clergy or ill-prepared laity?

I ask: how do the religious orders evangelize? By service, not by argument.

It seems to have worked splendidly in Quebec as your numbers of Mass attendance are pretty much near those of the US: dismal. Deacon giving catechism class today is from BC, and he has much to say on the condition of the Canadian Catholic situation, in particular Quebec.

Where the laity fails to stand up to any challenge, including their own priests, and especially their declared enemies, results in failure.

Nothing being said here is insanely complex theology, it’s basic Christianity. Explicitly denying Christ = denying the Gospel; different Gospel = no gospel = false prophet = type of anti-Christ = no Heaven = failed system.

IF a mohammedan is in Heaven, or will be, it will NOT be through the system of mohammedanism, but through Christ. Period. Full Stop. End of discussion.

This “ignorance” of the masses excuse is a non-starter in any country with internet access, particularly the West, though not to exclude the Middle East as the mohammedan presence on FB, etc is overwhelming.

Again, this is not complex theology, but basic Christianity. Keep your mouth shut at your own peril, for to keep your mouth shut on this IS to deny Christ in effect. Good luck explaining that one. We have enough on our plates to answer for, denying Christ is preventable and need not be one of those things.

 

[OraLabora]

It seems to have worked splendidly in Quebec as your numbers of Mass attendance are pretty much near those of the US: dismal. Deacon giving catechism class today is from BC, and he has much to say on the condition of the Canadian Catholic situation, in particular Quebec.

Where the laity fails to stand up to any challenge, including their own priests, and especially their declared enemies, results in failure.

Nothing being said here is insanely complex theology, it’s basic Christianity. Explicitly denying Christ = denying the Gospel; different Gospel = no gospel = false prophet = type of anti-Christ = no Heaven = failed system.

IF a mohammedan is in Heaven, or will be, it will NOT be through the system of mohammedanism, but through Christ. Period. Full Stop. End of discussion.

This “ignorance” of the masses excuse is a non-starter in any country with internet access, particularly the West, though not to exclude the Middle East as the mohammedan presence on FB, etc is overwhelming.

Again, this is not complex theology, but basic Christianity. Keep your mouth shut at your own peril, for to keep your mouth shut on this IS to deny Christ in effect. Good luck explaining that one. We have enough on our plates to answeIr for, denying Christ is preventable and need not be one of those things.

The Quebec church was steeped in Jansenism up until Vatican II. It’s a complex situation that is beyond trading Internet pot shots.

 

[wwolverine]

Sam, somehow I knew you would chime in with the above, which is the reason, I didn’t post the quran passage…

Hello Pam, nice to see you after a long time. Its actually me, who was away for a long time from the forum. How are you?

God Bless