What to do with a Muslim friend?

[Aaronmc90]

I sincerely hope your friend accepts Christ as his savior before his death…

As for muhammed, his eleven some odd wives, and his followers who are deceased, they no longer have the option, though I am sure if they could get a second shot at life, they would have accepted Christ, but as it is to late for them and their fate is eternally sealed, it’s not like we can fish them out of hell…

The quran states that stars are used, among other things, as missiles against djinn who attempt to listen in on heaven, some issues follow here…

1. Shooting stars are not regular stars, the quran does not differentiate between the two…
2. This would mean that heaven (jannah) is above the earth, roughly near our atmosphere, and that non physical entities are being attacked with physical objects…
3. It is also somewhat interesting that allah is conversing with his angels and I’m guessing, keeps forgetting to lock the door, as these djinns go back to earth and tell soothesayers the future…

These are scientifically incorrect, and taken in conjunction with the quran and hadiths borrowing of apocraphyl literature (ie, Jesus speaking in the cradle, casting lots for marys care, turning clay birds into live ones, stories taken from the infancy gospel which was translated in arabic, popular with heretical chrsitian groups…surprise, surprise, around the time of muhammed, who just happened to live near Christians and Jews, though he never accurately described the trinity nor understood that Jews do not see Ezra as the son of God…

Muhammed made scientific errors
Muhammed used unreliable sources from heretical christian sects, gospels written nearly 100 years after the events took place, compared to our canonical gospels, all four written in the 1st century AD and are unversally attested by mainstream Christianity

Now, logically can see that

1. Muhammed lied, claimed to be a prophet and was not, now he is a liar and blasphemer, leading people away from the truth of Christ
2. There is only one truth, Christianity and islam can not both be true, only one can be correct, both claim that only those who accept the factual truth will be saved

It’s impossible and unfathomable for a muslim to enter heaven, if it wasn’t, why would Jesus have died on the cross? it would also mean that the authors of the New Testament, as well as early Church fathers where liars or deceived as they put a big emphasis on spreading the gospel, even under the threat of death, there would be no need for this if people where automatically saved…

Muhammed raped, murdered, lied, stole and committed sin like it was a sport, if he is in heaven, everyone else is in heaven and there is no need for humans to go to hell, Christ therefore would never have needed to die in the cross, and Christianity and islam are inherently false, as no religion has any exclusive truth

 

[jakasaki]

Hello Pam, nice to see you after a long time. Its actually me, who was away for a long time from the forum. How are you?

God Bless

Missed you much dear old friend. Doing well… thanks for asking…!!

Now, this time, stick around and start posting…

Hugs
Pam

… sorry folks,… you may now return to the thread.!!

 

[Trebor135]

Explained by whom? Well-trained clergy or ill-prepared laity?

I ask: how do the religious orders evangelize? By service, not by argument.

You are setting up a false dichotomy between the tiny minority of “informed clergy” and the huge majority of “ignorant laity”. But there are many Christians in the present era who fall into the categories of “ignorant clergy” and “informed laity”.

We cannot forget the relatively dim situation of the Christian faith in our country, which means even fewer Canadians are men of the cloth. The likelihood of many Christians of any sort devoting their lives to evangelizing Muslims are very slim.

We do not live in the Middle Ages anymore. The laity have access to resources now that only the clergy used to long ago. If we remain silent–after study, prayer, and consulting a spiritual adviser–and believe that we are not good enough to discuss the important issues with Muslim friends, we will see essentially nothing happen. Even if we had a cohort of ordinary Catholic/Orthodox priests accompanying us, they might not even be of much help, given the fairly widespread dissent (leading to spiritual apathy) among at least the Catholic subset.

I understand what you are saying. But we must be bold. We must act with knowledge and prudence, for our neighbours’ souls are on the line.

 

[OraLabora]

You are setting up a false dichotomy between the tiny minority of “informed clergy” and the huge majority of “ignorant laity”. But there are many Christians in the present era who fall into the categories of “ignorant clergy” and “informed laity”.

While that’s nominally true, few of us are formally trained in apologetics, much less in inter-religious dialogue. The information era provides unlimited access to data. But that does not automatically confer the wisdom to use that information constructively. We have to seek out that wisdom; IMHO much of it lies within the religious orders (in my case, I’m particularly attracted to the Benedictines as my profile would suggest). I’m associated with a very orthodox Benedictine community (unlike many US Benedictine monasteries that will admit Protestant oblates, to be an oblate at my community requires that you be a baptized and confirmed Catholic).

We cannot forget the relatively dim situation of the Christian faith in our country, which means even fewer Canadians are men of the cloth. The likelihood of many Christians of any sort devoting their lives to evangelizing Muslims are very slim.

Again though I would like to draw attention to the fact that evangelization, apologetics and proselytizing are very different. Have you seen the film Of Gods and Men about the monks of Tibhirine? That’s an example of evangelization and dialogue (and sadly, of martyrdom) in the very best Benedictine tradition (although Cistercians of the Strict Observance they follow the Rule of St. Benedict like the Benedictines).

We do not live in the Middle Ages anymore. The laity have access to resources now that only the clergy used to long ago. If we remain silent–after study, prayer, and consulting a spiritual adviser–and believe that we are not good enough to discuss the important issues with Muslim friends, we will see essentially nothing happen. Even if we had a cohort of ordinary Catholic/Orthodox priests accompanying us, they might not even be of much help, given the fairly widespread dissent (leading to spiritual apathy) among at least the Catholic subset.

Again there’s more to it than access to information. Information in untrained hands can be dangerous.

I understand what you are saying. But we must be bold. We must act with knowledge and prudence, for our neighbours’ souls are on the line.

And so are ours. Which is why I advocate proceeding prudently, not boldly.

The whole purpose of inter-religious dialogue is that so we can peacefully coexist and build a community together. The very real reward of that is that some people will cross over to Catholicism; the very real risk is that others will cross the other way. Men and women have free will. It isn’t a war of numbers. God does not automatically condemn Muslims to hell. And He does not automatically admit Catholics into heaven.

 

[Aaronmc90]

If a muslim wishes to enter heaven, it is quite simple, reject the quran and muhammed and follow what God told his prophets, his true prophets, in his true scripture, condemning Christians for believing the trinity, cursing the Bible, and other muslims pasttimes are not going to get them into heaven, and no amount of political correctness and giving up essential Christian tenants to be “cool” with the younger generation is going to make muslims like anyone other than themselves…

Islam can be proven to be a false religion, the qurans many scientific errors ( shootings stars used to knock out djinns) borrowing from heretical gospels that where popular with Christians in muhammeds location and era (Infancy gospel, ie, Jesus speaking at birth, clay birds to live birds, along with other stories from the Midrash and Talmud) and contradictions, parts of the quran speak of Christians as blessed people who have nothing to fear from death as they believe in allah and the last day, other verses say the opposite, and also, muhammed incorrectly describes the trinity and accuses jews of believing in Ezra as the son of allah, muhammed was either not understanding what Christians and Jews where saying, or he was speaking to extremely small and heretical groups, in either way, whoever he was speaking to, it wasn’t God, and following him leads to one place, a very hot place…

 

[OraLabora]

If a muslim wishes to enter heaven, it is quite simple, reject the quran and muhammed and follow what God told his prophets, his true prophets, in his true scripture, condemning Christians for believing the trinity, cursing the Bible, and other muslims pasttimes are not going to get them into heaven, and no amount of political correctness and giving up essential Christian tenants to be “cool” with the younger generation is going to make muslims like anyone other than themselves…

Islam can be proven to be a false religion, the qurans many scientific errors ( shootings stars used to knock out djinns) borrowing from heretical gospels that where popular with Christians in muhammeds location and era (Infancy gospel, ie, Jesus speaking at birth, clay birds to live birds, along with other stories from the Midrash and Talmud) and contradictions, parts of the quran speak of Christians as blessed people who have nothing to fear from death as they believe in allah and the last day, other verses say the opposite, and also, muhammed incorrectly describes the trinity and accuses jews of believing in Ezra as the son of allah, muhammed was either not understanding what Christians and Jews where saying, or he was speaking to extremely small and heretical groups, in either way, whoever he was speaking to, it wasn’t God, and following him leads to one place, a very hot place…

Hmm, the Bible has plenty of incredible stories that are scientifically questionable. Surviving being swallowed by whales comes to mind.

That said, Catholicism does not teach that Muslims are automatically condemned to hell.

None of the Muslims I know, BTW, curse the Bible. The ones I work with, one in particular, is extremely supportive of my Catholicism, more so that secular members of my nominally “Catholic” society. We support each other during our Lenten and Ramadan privations

Just as we get angry at those who mis-represent the Catholic faith we must be scrupulously careful to not mis-represent Islam, and at the same time, not make the mistake of assuming that the mistakes of some Muslims mean you can paint all Muslims with the same brush. After all there have been plenty of Catholics in error too, and Islam like Christianity has many sects, it isn’t a monolithic religion by any means.

 

[Aaronmc90]

If a muslim wishes to enter heaven, it is quite simple, reject the quran and muhammed and follow what God told his prophets, his true prophets, in his true scripture, condemning Christians for believing the trinity, cursing the Bible, and other muslims pasttimes are not going to get them into heaven, and no amount of political correctness and giving up essential Christian tenants to be “cool” with the younger generation is going to make muslims like anyone other than themselves…

Islam can be proven to be a false religion, the qurans many scientific errors ( shootings stars used to knock out djinns) borrowing from heretical gospels that where popular with Christians in muhammeds location and era (Infancy gospel, ie, Jesus speaking at birth, clay birds to live birds, along with other stories from the Midrash and Talmud) and contradictions, parts of the quran speak of Christians as blessed people who have nothing to fear from death as they believe in allah and the last day, other verses say the opposite, and also, muhammed incorrectly describes the trinity and accuses jews of believing in Ezra as the son of allah, muhammed was either not understanding what Christians and Jews where saying, or he was speaking to extremely small and heretical groups, in either way, whoever he was speaking to, it wasn’t God, and following him leads to one place, a very hot place…

 

[Trebor135]

While that’s nominally true, few of us are formally trained in apologetics, much less in inter-religious dialogue. The information era provides unlimited access to data. But that does not automatically confer the wisdom to use that information constructively. We have to seek out that wisdom;

Exactly! At this point, I have no desire to barge into a mosque and challenge the imam to a debate on the spot… or to set up regular appointments for holding interreligious dialogue with him. I have a lot of things to deal with before either of those could become remote possibilities.

IMHO much of it lies within the religious orders (in my case, I’m particularly attracted to the Benedictines as my profile would suggest). I’m associated with a very orthodox Benedictine community (unlike many US Benedictine monasteries that will admit Protestant oblates, to be an oblate at my community requires that you be a baptized and confirmed Catholic).

Interesting.

Again though I would like to draw attention to the fact that evangelization, apologetics and proselytizing are very different.

How would you define these terms?

Have you seen the film Of Gods and Men about the monks of Tibhirine? That’s an example of evangelization and dialogue (and sadly, of martyrdom) in the very best Benedictine tradition (although Cistercians of the Strict Observance they follow the Rule of St. Benedict like the Benedictines).

I have not seen this film–I should look into it. I found this Wikipedia article on the incident that inspired the movie, though, and it doesn’t seem like the monks were martyred for spreading the Gospel. The article says that they may have been killed accidentally during a rescue attempt and/or died at the hands of an ostensibly Islamist rebel group that was a front for the Algerian state. But who knows?

Again there’s more to it than access to information.

When did I say otherwise?

Information in untrained hands can be dangerous.

“Untrained” and “foolish/rash” are not synonymous.

By your reasoning, practicing Catholics should not even be talking to their lapsed coreligionists because they may say something incorrect, unintentionally misleading, potentially offensive, or unwise, and drive them away. Yet, you have spoken approvingly of devout Catholics reaching out to their fallen-away siblings.

And so are ours. Which is why I advocate proceeding prudently, not boldly.

Why do you insist on dichotomizing? We can find a balance between the two. While Muslims share their faith–doctrines and all–unconstrained by the elitist notion that they should leave it up to the ulama, Christians will hang back from giving their interlocutors even the opportunity to learn about the truth.

The whole purpose of inter-religious dialogue is that so we can peacefully coexist and build a community together.

And this is where we differ. Building a community with all Canadians included is a splendid idea. But we should not be gathering around a campfire, so to speak, and pretending that doctrinal issues do not exist or matter.

The very real reward of that is that some people will cross over to Catholicism;

And if no one hears about Christian doctrines–Catholic or otherwise–how are they ever supposed to be able to “cross over”?

Do you know of any Muslims who have “crossed over” solely because of the good example set by their Christian neighbours?

the very real risk is that others will cross the other way. Men and women have free will.

Which is why Canada has a constitution that protects freedom of conscience… a right not available to most Muslims who might want to become Christian in their homelands.

It isn’t a war of numbers.

Again, when have I said otherwise?

Quality, not quantity. I have no interest in seeing a hundred million Muslims become Christian if their hearts aren’t in it.

God does not automatically condemn Muslims to hell. And He does not automatically admit Catholics into heaven.

Thank heavens.

 

[Aaronmc90]

Hmm, the Bible has plenty of incredible stories that are scientifically questionable. Surviving being swallowed by whales comes to mind.

That said, Catholicism does not teach that Muslims are automatically condemned to hell.

None of the Muslims I know, BTW, curse the Bible. The ones I work with, one in particular, is extremely supportive of my Catholicism, more so that secular members of my nominally “Catholic” society. We support each other during our Lenten and Ramadan privations

Just as we get angry at those who mis-represent the Catholic faith we must be scrupulously careful to not mis-represent Islam, and at the same time, not make the mistake of assuming that the mistakes of some Muslims mean you can paint all Muslims with the same brush. After all there have been plenty of Catholics in error too, and Islam like Christianity has many sects, it isn’t a monolithic religion by any means.

Hi there and God Bless you

The big difference between Jonah and the whale and the errors of the quran and hadith are, Jonahs account is miraculous, when people asked muhammed where the sun set in bukhari, he was being asked by someone who wanted a straightforward answer, when muhammed described the sun asking permission to rise and going around the earth, he was speaking as if he had divine authority, and ofcourse, was completely wrong, as he was on many things, if muhammed didn’t know, and allah didnt tell him, he could have shut up about it, but muhammeds mouth continuously exposed him to be the false prophet he was, and therefore, we can see clearly that he was a messenger of his own vain desires…

Maybe there are good muslim individuals, but being a nice person doesn’t guarantee them salvation, only heartfelt repentence in Jesus Christ is going to save they’re soul, no amount of bowing to a rock in the desert that was a pagan shrine is going to save them, no matter how sincere they are…

The earliest Christians went out to the Jewish tribes, pagan nations, in order to bring them as one body in Christ, it’s said that the Gospel is an offense, and yes, people have a choice, repent to die in your sins, which leads to hell, and muhammed can not help you, he was never a prophet, allah can not help you, because, he is basically satan ( Any God worshipped other than the true God of the Bible, no matter how well meaning, is in the end satanic, no matter how one tries to put an abrahamic spin on it) if even the Jews of Christs time to at least aknowledged the scripture where not saved without belief in Christ, certainely, muslims who for centuries have tried to replace the Gospel with muhammeds blasphemous tome will have they’re share in the lake of fire, with muhammed, his eleven some odd wives and the legions of lost souls who followed him into the abyss…

Being nice to people is good, I’m not an argumentative person, but also we can not have any false illusions about the spiritual status of persons who fall outside of the Christian faith, I don’t belong to the Catholic Church myself, but would be more than happy to be, it teaches the incarnation of Christ, the crucifixion, resurrection, and day of judgement, these are the most essential of Christian doctrines…

There are a great deal of apologetics resources out there that defend the Bible and Christian beliefs with sound, logical evidence that should more than clear up any doubt or confusion in a curious mind of a person, muslim or not, who is sincere in seeking the truth, today, with near universal access to the internet, these resources are open to anyone willing to look into them with an open heart and mind, failing to do so, failing to accept Christ, that person has no excuse, the message was there, it was made available to them, they didn’t have to change they’re name, or culture ( though they would have to stop believing in the quran, and stop believing in allah/muhammed) all they had to do with an honest heart would be to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, the mediator who himself was the divine being, to ignore the rantings of muhammed and his cronies, and to follow TRUE guidance…

John 3:16

 

[OraLabora]

How would you define these terms?

Off the top of my head, evangelizing is witnessing for the faith and that is done by living the faith. Proselytizing is actively trying to convert by argument. Apologetics consist of defending the faith through argument… defending from those who actively attack it from without but also those doubting from within.

The article says that they may have been killed accidentally during a rescue attempt and/or died at the hands of an ostensibly Islamist rebel group that was a front for the Algerian state. But who knows?

It doesn’t really matter who killed them. They elected to remain in a very dangerous situation in order to continue their life of witness and of service to the community (they provided the only doctor to the local community). That sounds an awful lot like martyrdom to me.

“Untrained” and “foolish/rash” are not synonymous.

By your reasoning, practicing Catholics should not even be talking to their lapsed coreligionists because they may say something incorrect, unintentionally misleading, potentially offensive, or unwise, and drive them away. Yet, you have spoken approvingly of devout Catholics reaching out to their fallen-away siblings.

Apples and oranges. In fact I did just that this morning with a dear friend who is lapsed in our weekly Saturday morning breakfast (myself, him and another believer). An ex-Catholic is someone who should know better…

Why do you insist on dichotomizing? We can find a balance between the two. While Muslims share their faith–doctrines and all–unconstrained by the elitist notion that they should leave it up to the ulama, Christians will hang back from giving their interlocutors even the opportunity to learn about the truth.

None of the many Muslims I have known in my professional career have ever attempted to convert me to their faith. We have discussed the role of God in our lives, the role of prayer, and how we love God; without ever discussing doctrine. In the talk I heard from none other than the undersecretary of the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue, it was made very clear that doctrinal dialogue needs to happen at the theological and clerical level, not by the laity. Msgr Tanya-anan (an excellent speaker BTW) must have some authority to speak on the subject.

And this is where we differ. Building a community with all Canadians included is a splendid idea. But we should not be gathering around a campfire, so to speak, and pretending that doctrinal issues do not exist or matter.

No, we should be sitting around the metaphorical campfire not concentrating on doctrine. More love, less doctrine; there is no need in a community setting to focus on doctrine; these differences do not interfere with our common objectives we may hold, such as maintaining a peaceful, respectful and loving community. As I said above it was made clear at the 2009 Oblate’s congress that doctrinal discussion is above our pay grade. Let me illustrate with a recent example: the new Anglican Ordinariate. The doctrinal discussions that lead to an opening for entire communities to enter the Catholic Church most certainly occurred at a much higher level than us; our job was to be a welcoming community for them. Vocation, vocation, vocation… know which is our vocation, and live up to it.

And if no one hears about Christian doctrines–Catholic or otherwise–how are they ever supposed to be able to “cross over”?

See above.

Do you know of any Muslims who have “crossed over” solely because of the good example set by their Christian neighbours?

No. But I have a very limited sample size.

Which is why Canada has a constitution that protects freedom of conscience… a right not available to most Muslims who might want to become Christian in their homelands.

Two wrongs don’t make a right; the Muslims I know came over here for a better life. A Copt I know came over to escape discrimination by Muslims in Egypt. Bigotry and discrimination, alas, is not a Muslim concept, it is a human one and one that I can see from this thread, by one poster in particular, is alive and well within Catholicism as well.

Quality, not quantity. I have no interest in seeing a hundred million Muslims become Christian if their hearts aren’t in it.

Bingo. And I believe the slow cautious approach will do just that, lead to a thoughtful conversion process. And once that process kicks in and the person becomes a catechumen, that’s the time to discuss and lovingly explain doctrine in a more rigorous fashion.

Note that I am not proposing that we clam up when a Muslim asks, in genuine curiosity or inquisitiveness, about our faith. For example my Muslim colleague at work, on a noon walk together, asked me how I as a Catholic prayed.

Not surprisingly, in general, much the same way as she does, and for more or less the same things; I was particularly struck how we both were very much on the same wavelength regarding the notion “Thy will be done”. As I said I have more in common with her than the secularized Quebecers I deal with who openly diss my faith. She on the other hand has had nothing but the utmost respect for me, supports me, and even clued me in on the availability of a prayer and meditation room in the (rather large) office where I work, that I didn’t know about, where I can recite the LOTH in private if needed.

In this manner we can openly help each other grow closer to God, even if neither of us abandons our faith.

 

[Sam_777]

Sam, somehow I knew you would chime in with the above, which is the reason, I didn’t post the quran passage…

Hi sister in Christ, it’s strange how Muslims in the west live these days!, it seems they have created their own version of Islam! whether that is because of their ignorant or to use taqiyya in order to polish Islam image (remember this guy)!

Anyway, it’s good to have an Islamic scholar like you to point out the truth from time to time…

 

[jakasaki]

Hi sister in Christ, it’s strange how Muslims in the west live these days!, it seems they have created their own version of Islam! whether that is because of their ignorant or to use taqiyya in order to polish Islam image (remember this guy)!

Anyway, it’s good to have an Islamic scholar like you to point out the truth from time to time…

Islamic scholar I’m not… and yes, I do remember Rashid… he never did return to the dog thread…

 

[jonbhorton]

Hi sister in Christ, it’s strange how Muslims in the west live these days!, it seems they have created their own version of Islam! whether that is because of their ignorant or to use taqiyya in order to polish Islam image (remember this guy)!

Anyway, it’s good to have an Islamic scholar like you to point out the truth from time to time…

Sam,

Always appreciate your comments. Indeed, the West is blinded to the reality of mohammedanism. Lie, cheat, steal, break promises, etc- of course these are not patented by mohammed, though they are codified. The West believes many comfortable lies, because otherwise would be to face a painful truth- we in the West have a choice should/when the mohammedan world raises its head: convert, dhimmitude, or die.

When people understand orthodox/koranic/hadith mohammedanism, they will understand this. Until then, I could care less if anyone’s neighbor or co-worker is a “great guy” and “really peaceful”. Sounds like the after-interview of neighbors of a serial killer.

I’d be interested in what country Yehuda Dion went to madrassa.

News coming out of majority-population countries indicates a far different mohammedan doctrine as opposed to the spoon-fed West’s understanding.

Stick around Brother!

I would be ecstatic to see the system of mohammed brought to its knees so when it rises I can hug the former mohammedan and not be forced to fight him or die at his sword- a promise in the unfolding self-fulfilling eschatological views of many across the Atlantic, and next door depending.

 

[Aaronmc90]

The above poster is correct, it’s important to keep in mind that for many generations our ancestors fought and won against islam, finally destroying the evil caliphate in 1918 and occupying the mid-east, liberating Israel and giving it to it’s rightfull owners…

We must not be under any delusions as to the kind of satanic evil we’re facing, it’s greater than a physical struggle, as we can see, there is no muslim country that is very powerful, but muslim immigrants certainely are, and hate speech laws and other draconian measures by secular european governments are giving to them what they could never dream of taking by force, which is our sacred European soil…

We must remember that the physical battle is only half, that there is a deep spiritual battle here and the salvation of many depend on it, islam has no possible way of offering salvation to anyone, the quran fails scientifically, logically and on top of that we where warned of false prophets like muhammed, that they would come and deceive, because that’s what satan does…

islam is not true, it was founded by a fallable corrupt man with an agenda, and when we see the fact that he borrowed from apocraphyl sources (infancy gospel) local pagan legends (black stone, djinns etc) and his numerous errors as to the workings of the universe (sun goes around us, shooting star missiles) we must not fret to expose these lies as this lie has taken many a soul to hell, where muhammed currently resides, the worse thing about hell… you never get out, we have one shot to make the right choices, God is a loving and just God, and unless they accept God for the truth he revealed to his chosen prophets, they are on the path to perdition, the saddest part is, they won’t be lonely…

muslims are fighting a losing battle, they can never win in this life or the next, come over to the winning side, live in peace and die in the Grace of the Lord…

AMEN!

 

[Aaronmc90]

When it comes to muslims, we should be tough with them, islam can not give anyone salvation, muhammed was a blasphemer and an anti-Christ, the teachings of islam are completely opposite those of Christianity, and since muhammed forged his prophethood (Which can be proven by the errors of the quran, authentic hadith and warnings Biblically of false prophets such as himself) muhammed, his eleven some odd wives and followers have no place in heaven, and are suffering in hell…

There’s nothing that can be done to save muhammed or his collection of wives, or those who sacrificed themselves for an idolotrous belief, but we must stand firm and try to encourage muslims to leave islam, there are countless apologetics sources, which prove the Gospel and disprove islamic beliefs, that are available for free to anyone with the heart to search, a sincere truth seeking person of God can find the truth for themselves, if they ask the true creator to guide them, I believe he’ll open they’re heart and mind to the truth of Christ and falsehoods of islam, the early disciples and apostles treaded into the heart of paganism itself in order to tell people the truth of Christ, if everyone is saved, than why would they have done that? there would have been no need for a Gospel, no need for such efforts on behalf of the Apostles and Church Fathers who gave up lives of luxury for lives of truth…

allah is not a deity worthy of worship, nor is he a deity at all, and muhammed was only a messenger of his vain desires for power, women and cash, which he got in abundance, at the cost of his salvation…

I’m sure that if he (or his wife collection) could come back, they would repent and follow the guidance of Christ, but for them it’s much to late, but for many out there, there is still time, I pray that God opens the darkness of the muslim soul to the light of the true Lord and Savior of mankind, abandon the idols of arabia, and accept the Shepherd of Israel

 

[Trebor135]

OraLabora: Thanks for the clarifications on the meaning you attach to those three terms.

Martyrdom is being killed for one’s faith. Depending on who killed the monks and what the motivations were, the three could be correctly said to have suffered this fate. It would have been informative if those responsible had left a note…

Apples and oranges. In fact I did just that this morning with a dear friend who is lapsed in our weekly Saturday morning breakfast (myself, him and another believer). An ex-Catholic is someone who should know better…

I can testify that Canadian Catholics generally have a very limited knowledge of their faith–there are probably Muslims here who understand it just as well or better. After I went away to university I soon lost my own strong Catholic faith because I had been taught almost nothing and had no idea how to respond to Protestant arguments from a then-fiery, uncharitable Catholic-turned-Pentecostal. (Genuine apologies have been given since, but my spiritual world has been turned upside-down.)

None of the many Muslims I have known in my professional career have ever attempted to convert me to their faith.

I have known a fair number of Muslims over the years to widely varying degrees. Two come to mind who were fairly direct about wanting me to convert.

We have discussed the role of God in our lives, the role of prayer, and how we love God; without ever discussing doctrine. In the talk I heard from none other than the undersecretary of the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue, it was made very clear that doctrinal dialogue needs to happen at the theological and clerical level, not by the laity. Msgr Tanya-anan (an excellent speaker BTW) must have some authority to speak on the subject.

I would have to look at his reasoning and evaluate it on its merits.

Let me illustrate with a recent example: the new Anglican Ordinariate. The doctrinal discussions that lead to an opening for entire communities to enter the Catholic Church most certainly occurred at a much higher level than us; our job was to be a welcoming community for them. Vocation, vocation, vocation… know which is our vocation, and live up to it.

If you expect Catholic Church hierarches to hold discussions with such Muslim clerics as the head of al-Azhar or Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani and in that way bring about the mass conversion of Muslims, I would reconsider the proposition. Your comparison is one of… apples and oranges. Anglicans are not just already Christian but also have a lot in common with Catholics.

We should perhaps also be open to the possibility that the vocation of some among us is to engage in the work of “proselytizing” (according to the specific definition you offered).

No. But I have a very limited sample size.

Not a problem. I was actually asking for both cases that you know of from your own life as well as from other sources. You claim that Christians can inspire Muslims to “cross over” exclusively by setting a good example. I would like to see the evidence backing up this statement.

Two wrongs don’t make a right; the Muslims I know came over here for a better life.

Indeed. I am not advocating any changes to the Canadian constitution to limit religious freedom.

A Copt I know came over to escape discrimination by Muslims in Egypt.

I have met Copts with similar stories.

Bingo. And I believe the slow cautious approach will do just that, lead to a thoughtful conversion process. And once that process kicks in and the person becomes a catechumen, that’s the time to discuss and lovingly explain doctrine in a more rigorous fashion.

The conversion stories of former Protestants that I have read very rarely, if ever, pointed to the good example set by Catholics/Eastern Orthodox as being the factor that caused their change of heart or even openness to further study. You may point to the gap between Protestantism and Islam, but some varieties of the former are almost as far removed from Catholicism/Eastern Orthodoxy as the latter. (Not to conflate the two groups, but see Calvinists who deny Catholics/Eastern Orthodox their due Christian status and the large numbers of low-church evangelicals.)

I am still baffled as to how the “thoughtful conversion process” can “kick in” if Muslims never hear much about the basic Christian beliefs. A few might go researching on their own, but most will see no reason to do so.

Note that I am not proposing that we clam up when a Muslim asks, in genuine curiosity or inquisitiveness, about our faith. For example my Muslim colleague at work, on a noon walk together, asked me how I as a Catholic prayed.

This is definitely a relationship to be treasured. I’ve heard enough nonsense from secular university professors attacking Christian beliefs to understand how refreshing it must be to have someone who believes different things but refuses to engage in discourtesy, mockery, and misrepresentation.

But… if a Muslim asked you about why you (1) believe Jesus to be the son of God or (2) deny prophetic status to Muhammad, how would you respond?

(I have had to excise parts of your post in this response because of the six thousand-character limit.)

 

[OraLabora]

OraLabora: Thanks for the clarifications on the meaning you attach to those three terms.

Martyrdom is being killed for one’s faith. Depending on who killed the monks and what the motivations were, the three could be correctly said to have suffered this fate. It would have been informative if those responsible had left a note…

The killers didn’t, but the prior of the monastery left his testament which can be found here:

Dom Christian de Chergé testament (this is their order’s official website)

After I went away to university I soon lost my own strong Catholic faith because I had been taught almost nothing and had no idea how to respond to Protestant arguments from a then-fiery, uncharitable Catholic-turned-Pentecostal. (Genuine apologies have been given since, but my spiritual world has been turned upside-down.)

Same here; after my return I too was attacked by evangelicals at the place I worked. That’s when apologetics came in handy.

If you expect Catholic Church hierarches to hold discussions with such Muslim clerics as the head of al-Azhar or Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani and in that way bring about the mass conversion of Muslims, I would reconsider the proposition. Your comparison is one of… apples and oranges. Anglicans are not just already Christian but also have a lot in common with Catholics.

I think we have to be reasonable in our expectations. Mass conversion after growing to over 1 billion in 1500 years just isn’t going to happen. Peaceful coexistence might be more realistic, and individual conversions are always welcome. Given the realities of Muslim countries though, it’s unlikely to happen much over there. Perhaps there’s more chance here but I’d say that those chances are limited too but mostly because Christians are seen as hypocrites. The Church sex scandals have no doubt made the job that much more difficult. I think conversion of others goes hand-in-hand with our own genuine inner conversion.

Not a problem. I was actually asking for both cases that you know of from your own life as well as from other sources. You claim that Christians can inspire Muslims to “cross over” exclusively by setting a good example. I would like to see the evidence backing up this statement./QUOTE]

I make no claim that Christians can do anything. The claim I make is that traditionally has been the modus operandi of the Benedictines, and as I understand it, also the Franciscans, and many other missionary orders. Carrying the Gospel to foreign lands means primarily living the Gospel. We have examples where attempts were made to force conversions; the Residential Schools in Canada come to mind. Not so successful.
Trebor135;8953113:

But… if a Muslim asked you about why you (1) believe Jesus to be the son of God or (2) deny prophetic status to Muhammad, how would you respond?

Honestly. And perhaps with analogy to simplify the Trinity into human terms because the Trinity is their major obstacle.

(I have had to excise parts of your post in this response because of the six thousand-character limit.)

Same here and have to rattle this off quickly before I start work.

BTW I have an easier time dialoguing with Muslims than JW’s!

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

It is highly recomended users post in a respectful and adult manner, to each other and the subject at hand.

 

[TexanKnight]

I am curious of the posters here if anyone has read the Koran?

 

[wwolverine]

Missed you much dear old friend. Doing well… thanks for asking…!!

Now, this time, stick around and start posting…

Hugs
Pam

… sorry folks,… you may now return to the thread.!!

Thanks Pam, Sure will stick around.

God Bless and Hugs