What to make of the prophecies of non-Christian religions?

[Ben_Sinner]

Am I the only one that finds it very worrisome that alot of religions have had very detailed prophecies that ended up being true?

For example, in Jainism, there have been 24 previous Tirthankaras who have all prophesied their successor, and there seems to be historical evidence that all these people were historical figures. And they have very detailed past life stories and they also have very detailed future predictions about the next 24 Tirthankaras.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirthankara#T.C4.ABrtha.E1.B9.85karas_of_present_cosmic_age

Or how all the Buddhas have prophesied each other and were also believed to be historical figures.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddhas

Now some will say “These scriptures were written centuries after that prophet’s death”…but Eastern religions say they have used oral tradition for these stories from the get-go and their oral memories are repetitive to the point where error isn’t likely to take place…just like how Homer’s stories were passed on through the centuries before being put on paper.

Can someone educate me on how these prophesies from other religions’ scriptures are lesser than those of Christianity’s scriptures? What if those’ other religions prophecies come true?

 

[Jonathan7777]

To me, these prophecies coming true sounds pretty normal. I personally believe that devils who creates false religions wouldn’t simply let it fall by itself. Of course they would do whatever it takes to make it seems true by making those prophecies happen and come true They do have power and btw they don’t just simply sit in the dark corner and do nothing. I know this is pretty controversial but that was just my personal opinion and I believe so…

 

[Mintaka]

The only non-Christian non-Jewish prophet you should worry about is Balaam. Also a historical guy.

And if you are s religious leader and don’t know the personal histories of your probable successors, you stink as a leader.

 

[jcrichton]

Am I the only one that finds it very worrisome that alot of religions have had very detailed prophecies that ended up being true?

For example, in Jainism, there have been 24 previous Tirthankaras who have all prophesied their successor, and there seems to be historical evidence that all these people were historical figures. And they have very detailed past life stories and they also have very detailed future predictions about the next 24 Tirthankaras.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirthankara#T.C4.ABrtha.E1.B9.85karas_of_present_cosmic_age

Or how all the Buddhas have prophesied each other and were also believed to be historical figures.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddhas

Now some will say “These scriptures were written centuries after that prophet’s death”…but Eastern religions say they have used oral tradition for these stories from the get-go and their oral memories are repetitive to the point where error isn’t likely to take place…just like how Homer’s stories were passed on through the centuries before being put on paper.

Can someone educate me on how these prophesies from other religions’ scriptures are lesser than those of Christianity’s scriptures? What if those’ other religions prophecies come true?

Hi, Ben!
…I am quite ignorant of most things… but I gather enough info to speculate… have these “prophets” prophesied about the world in general… this, that and that other thing will happen? …have these prophecies (other than natural catastrophes which even the ancient world forecasted [they are cyclical–as certain comets etc.] taken place?

Compare that with say three specific prophecies that Yahweh predicted and that are easily proven: a) He would scatter Israel throughout the world, b) He would bring Israel back from the confines that it was scattered, and c) the Temple would be razed to the point that not a stone upon a stone would be left.

Each of these prophecies took place: a) Israel assaulted and brought into exile several times over (even today Israelites live among the nations); b) at the Incarnation of the Word the first census requested that all of Israel (all clans/families) be registered; c) Temple razed in 70AD.

I, as Nostradamus, and others can make hundreds of predictions about general things–a few would be near misses and others would be close to rank [through tweaking meanings and interpretations some would be claimed as coming into fruition].

…as for predicting the various successors, could you not see the possibility of construct (it happens daily in our would, people take on stolen or constructed identity in order to became a new/different entity).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[ericc]

Am I the only one that finds it very worrisome that alot of religions have had very detailed prophecies that ended up being true?

For example, in Jainism, there have been 24 previous Tirthankaras who have all prophesied their successor, and there seems to be historical evidence that all these people were historical figures. And they have very detailed past life stories and they also have very detailed future predictions about the next 24 Tirthankaras.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirthankara#T.C4.ABrtha.E1.B9.85karas_of_present_cosmic_age

Or how all the Buddhas have prophesied each other and were also believed to be historical figures.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddhas

Now some will say “These scriptures were written centuries after that prophet’s death”…but Eastern religions say they have used oral tradition for these stories from the get-go and their oral memories are repetitive to the point where error isn’t likely to take place…just like how Homer’s stories were passed on through the centuries before being put on paper.

Can someone educate me on how these prophesies from other religions’ scriptures are lesser than those of Christianity’s scriptures? What if those’ other religions prophecies come true?

Were the misses included in the stats as well? Did you ascertain the quality of their accuracy?

Their prophecies do not affect my salvation bottom-line. End-goal of nothingness vs everlasting loving fellowship with my God, my choice is clear.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Islam believes that Jesus will come again (though Muslims believe that way different than Christians do), and Christianity exists precisely BECAUSE of prophecy from a non-Christian religion. Judaism.

 

[ericc]

Islam believes that Jesus will come again (though Muslims believe that way different than Christians do), and Christianity exists precisely BECAUSE of prophecy from a non-Christian religion. Judaism.

Yes they agree that Jesus will be the end-times Judge. Mohammed has to submit to His judgement as well. He is not exempted.

I’d put that Christianity is the continuation/fulfillment of Judaism., and not BECAUSE of its prophecy. Early Christian Jews continued to worship at the temple/synagogues. Political developments eventually prevented that.

 

[jcrichton]

Yes they agree that Jesus will be the end-times Judge. Mohammed has to submit to His judgement as well. He is not exempted.

I’d put that Christianity is the continuation/fulfillment of Judaism., and not BECAUSE of its prophecy. Early Christian Jews continued to worship at the temple/synagogues. Political developments eventually prevented that.

Hi, Eric!
…I’m confused… :juggle::juggle::juggle:

Christianity is the continuation/fulfillment of Judaism but outside of the Old Testament prophecies?

…political developments forced early Christians to abandon the Temple and synagogue?

Could you clarify your statements?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[ericc]

Hi, Eric!
…I’m confused… :juggle::juggle::juggle:

Christianity is the continuation/fulfillment of Judaism but outside of the Old Testament prophecies?

…political developments forced early Christians to abandon the Temple and synagogue?

Could you clarify your statements?

Maran atha!

Angel

Forgive me for the imprecise statements. I was responding to Adamhovey statement that Christianity is caused by a prophecy of Judaism in which he termed it as a non-Christian religion. He is right that in the sense that Judaism isn’t based on Christ but on Mosaic law.

However, Christ did not intend to set up a new religion. His apostles as well as himself attend all Jewish worship and festival obligations. The apostles continue to go to the Temple for worship even after his ascension. The early Jewish Christians were a sect of the Judaism worshipers preaching an “enhanced” or enlightened version of worship.

However the increase in hostilities, destruction of the second temple , rise of Rabbinic Judaism and predominantly gentile Christians in terms of number eventually led to a gradual split between mainstream Judaism and Christianity. Non-Jewish Christians are not accepted in Jewish synagogues. I therefore disagree with the statement that a prophecy from Judaism “cause” Christianity to happen. Christianity “evolved” from Judaism would be a more appropriate stance in my view. That was my thought process at the time I wrote my piece. I didn’t meant to confuse anyone. Googling “early Christianity” may give you a better coverage of what I am trying to say.

I didn’t say Christianity is outside of OT Prophecies btw. The Messiah was prophesied in the OT. Christians say Jesus is that Messiah. Non-Christian Jews think he is yet to come although a number of claimed messiahs came and went subsequently. I only took issue with the bit about “Christianity exists precisely BECAUSE of prophecy from a non-Christian religion. Judaism” I didn’t particularly like the “precisely BECAUSE” bit.

 

[jcrichton]

Forgive me for the imprecise statements. I was responding to Adamhovey statement that Christianity is caused by a prophecy of Judaism in which he termed it as a non-Christian religion. He is right that in the sense that Judaism isn’t based on Christ but on Mosaic law.

However, Christ did not intend to set up a new religion. His apostles as well as himself attend all Jewish worship and festival obligations. The apostles continue to go to the Temple for worship even after his ascension. The early Jewish Christians were a sect of the Judaism worshipers preaching an “enhanced” or enlightened version of worship.

However the increase in hostilities, destruction of the second temple , rise of Rabbinic Judaism and predominantly gentile Christians in terms of number eventually led to a gradual split between mainstream Judaism and Christianity. Non-Jewish Christians are not accepted in Jewish synagogues. I therefore disagree with the statement that a prophecy from Judaism “cause” Christianity to happen. Christianity “evolved” from Judaism would be a more appropriate stance in my view. That was my thought process at the time I wrote my piece. I didn’t meant to confuse anyone. Googling “early Christianity” may give you a better coverage of what I am trying to say.

I didn’t say Christianity is outside of OT Prophecies btw. The Messiah was prophesied in the OT. Christians say Jesus is that Messiah. Non-Christian Jews think he is yet to come although a number of claimed messiahs came and went subsequently. I only took issue with the bit about “Christianity exists precisely BECAUSE of prophecy from a non-Christian religion. Judaism” I didn’t particularly like the “precisely BECAUSE” bit.

Hi, Eric!
…I’m beginning to follow you…

Though my perspective is different…

Yahweh God Revealed Himself first to the Hebrew people (as an organized religious format); yet, His Revelation comes right at the beginning as we find Abel and Cain making thanks-offerings… we also find, in Old Testament Scriptures, that it is foretold that the chosen people will not remain obedient to Yahweh God and that He will make His Covenant with the non-chosen (Gentiles).

We find that when God establishes His Promise with Abraham both the Hebrews (Jews) and Gentiles are included ("your name will no longer be Abram but Abraham for I will make you father to many nations [check Romans 9:1 thru 11:32]; yet, the Promise is to come through the Jews (Salvation is from the Jews) because Yahweh God Saved the world from the very Beginning in Jesus Christ; thusly, the Bond/Covenant of the Promise–through the lineage of David would have to Come into the world as a Jewish descendant.

As attested to by the Revelation in Romans 9 - 11, the two bodies (people) would become one, in Jesus (the One in Whom the Gentiles would place their Hope). To this end the natural olive (Israel) had to reject God’s Design (St. John 1:1-14) so that the wild olive could be inserted into the natural (Ezekiel 17).

Christ’s Teaching was rejected by Israel (not the Remnant which Yahweh kept close to His Heart) so that the Gentiles could be received into the Kingdom since all who believe in Jesus, the Word Incarnate, are Given the Power to become sons (children) of God. Jesus Reveals to the Samaritan woman (St. John 4:20-24) that the Kingdom of God is at hand and that true Worshipers will, from the prescribed moment, not Worship on the mountains nor in the Temple but will Worship God in Spirit and Truth–that is the change in the Economy of God: as St. John the Baptist had to diminish so would Judaism remain in a diminished capacity as Christ would be Honored in order that the Father be Honored ("…for there is only One Name given by which all shall be Saved: Jesus, the Christ") (paraphrased)

In order for God’s Salvific Plan to take effect Jesus, as His Followers, had to be rejected and persecuted; as the Master was rejected and persecuted His Body, the Church, would suffer such persecution–through persecution the Body of Christ would not only prevail but thrive!

Our Christian roots (beginnings) are found in Judaism but not as a recent effect since as St. Paul tells us Christians are the seed of Abraham through Faith–Faith came first cause Abraham believed in God before Isaac, the son of the Promise, came into being (Faith before the flesh). It is not a coincidence or a necessity–it was God’s Plan from the very Beginning (check the parable of the two sons–the first quickly assents to the Father’s Command but promptly ignores it; the second seems oblivious to the Father’s Command but ultimately obeys Him).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Contarini]

Am I the only one that finds it very worrisome that alot of religions have had very detailed prophecies that ended up being true?

For example, in Jainism, there have been 24 previous Tirthankaras who have all prophesied their successor, and there seems to be historical evidence that all these people were historical figures. And they have very detailed past life stories and they also have very detailed future predictions about the next 24 Tirthankaras.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirthankara#T.C4.ABrtha.E1.B9.85karas_of_present_cosmic_age

Or how all the Buddhas have prophesied each other and were also believed to be historical figures.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddhas

Now some will say “These scriptures were written centuries after that prophet’s death”…but Eastern religions say they have used oral tradition for these stories from the get-go and their oral memories are repetitive to the point where error isn’t likely to take place…just like how Homer’s stories were passed on through the centuries before being put on paper.

Can someone educate me on how these prophesies from other religions’ scriptures are lesser than those of Christianity’s scriptures? What if those’ other religions prophecies come true?

I don’t see how the oral tradition argument (even if true–I suspect these claims are generally overblown) is relevant. All it would prove is that prophecies could possibly be passed down orally, not that they were. The fact remains that there’s no proof.

And the same is true for a lot of alleged Biblical prophecies. I don’t find the “argument from prophecy” as generally advanced to be very convincing. When properly used, it’s an argument showing how Christianity fulfills themes in the OT, not some kind of proof of supernatural origin for Scripture or the Christian religion generally.

And finally, I’m not particularly bothered by the idea that other religions are true–we would have to ask “true in what sense, and in what particular ways does this truth contradict what we believe as Christians?”

Edwin

 

[jcrichton]

I don’t see how the oral tradition argument (even if true–I suspect these claims are generally overblown) is relevant. All it would prove is that prophecies could possibly be passed down orally, not that they were. The fact remains that there’s no proof.

And the same is true for a lot of alleged Biblical prophecies. I don’t find the “argument from prophecy” as generally advanced to be very convincing. When properly used, it’s an argument showing how Christianity fulfills themes in the OT, not some kind of proof of supernatural origin for Scripture or the Christian religion generally.

And finally, I’m not particularly bothered by the idea that other religions are true–we would have to ask “true in what sense, and in what particular ways does this truth contradict what we believe as Christians?”

Edwin

Hi, Edwin!
…so you do not believe that God prophesied anything, but rather that Christians have used 20/20 hindsight to script our existence (btw: quite a Jewish claim–‘Scriptures don’t mean what Christians say…’); do you believe in miracles, angels, and Divine Inspiration?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[arthra]

Buddhist prophecies allude to a future Buddha such as Maitreya and Amitabha…

Hindu prophecies mention the Kalkin Avatara

Zoroastrian prophecies allude to Sraosha…

The Magi according to some Gospel were looking for the Christ child.

I suppose it’s a natural for a spiritual perspective to have prophecies about the return of a Messiah or Great Teacher.

 

[jcrichton]

Buddhist prophecies allude to a future Buddha such as Maitreya and Amitabha…

Hindu prophecies mention the Kalkin Avatara

Zoroastrian prophecies allude to Sraosha…

The Magi according to some Gospel were looking for the Christ child.

I suppose it’s a natural for a spiritual perspective to have prophecies about the return of a Messiah or Great Teacher.

Hi!
…actually the Magi were looking for the “King of the Jews.”

…this distinction is important because the Old Testament Sacred Scriptures attest that Yahweh God, a jealous God, Called Himself the King of His chosen people… when Israel demanded to become as the nations around them (having an earthly king) the prophet was angered that Israel should want to emulate the nations of the world–Yahweh clarified that their transgression was even more grave than he realized because they were in effect not just rejecting the prophet but God Himself as their only King…

Conversely, the very same incident (decision) took place when the Word Incarnate, Jesus, the Son of God, was acclaimed by Pontius Pilate (the Roman who did not want to condemn a Just man to death) as Israel’s King and the religious boasted of having no other king but Caesar.

Coincidentally, Jesus Christ was the Immanuel, the prophesied God Who would Come to the Temple–yet, as another prophecy foretold, He would be rejected by His people and claimed by those who were not His people!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Contarini]

Hi, Edwin!
…so you do not believe that God prophesied anything,

I didn’t say that. (“God” wouldn’t be the one prophesying, but the one revealing truth to the human prophets–but I get what you mean.) I believe that God divinely inspired human authors to say things that point to future acts in salvation history.

However, as a matter of fact one can read the Bible as a purely human text without any glaring incongruity or ludicrous stretches of logic.

In other words, prophecy isn’t about providing some kind of knock-down proof of the supernatural.

but rather that Christians have used 20/20 hindsight to script our existence (btw: quite a Jewish claim–‘Scriptures don’t mean what Christians say…’)

I believe that the Scriptures do mean what Christians say. But obviously the Jewish interpretations are possible too. That’s just what reality is like–it’s ambiguous.

Christians experienced God’s saving actions and then found prefiguring in Scripture. The virginal conception of Jesus is a very good example. Isaiah 7:14 had never been seen by anyone, as far as I know, as a prophecy of a literal “virginal conception.” That is, ironically, an argument for the historicity of the virginal conception (as the unjustly reviled Fr. Raymond Brown has pointed out). Similarly, I’ve seen the argument that the fact that Jesus’ words about not one stone being left on another were not literally fulfilled indicates that the Gospel of Mark was written before the event and contains genuine (if hyperbolic) prophecy. (And yes, before writing this I looked it up and found people arguing that since the “Western Wall” was part of the retaining wall it isn’t really part of the Temple and so Jesus’ prophecy was literally accurate.)

do you believe in miracles, angels, and Divine Inspiration?

Yes. Though I don’t think divine inspiration works the way fundamentalists believe.

Edwin

 

[jcrichton]

I didn’t say that. (“God” wouldn’t be the one prophesying, but the one revealing truth to the human prophets–but I get what you mean.) I believe that God divinely inspired human authors to say things that point to future acts in salvation history.

However, as a matter of fact one can read the Bible as a purely human text without any glaring incongruity or ludicrous stretches of logic.

In other words, prophecy isn’t about providing some kind of knock-down proof of the supernatural.

I believe that the Scriptures do mean what Christians say. But obviously the Jewish interpretations are possible too. That’s just what reality is like–it’s ambiguous.

Christians experienced God’s saving actions and then found prefiguring in Scripture. The virginal conception of Jesus is a very good example. Isaiah 7:14 had never been seen by anyone, as far as I know, as a prophecy of a literal “virginal conception.” That is, ironically, an argument for the historicity of the virginal conception (as the unjustly reviled Fr. Raymond Brown has pointed out). Similarly, I’ve seen the argument that the fact that Jesus’ words about not one stone being left on another were not literally fulfilled indicates that the Gospel of Mark was written before the event and contains genuine (if hyperbolic) prophecy. (And yes, before writing this I looked it up and found people arguing that since the “Western Wall” was part of the retaining wall it isn’t really part of the Temple and so Jesus’ prophecy was literally accurate.)

Yes. Though I don’t think divine inspiration works the way fundamentalists believe.

Edwin

Hi, Edwin!
…sorry for the load off; I get flustered when “Catholics/Christians” seem to side on reason without Faith…

…when speaking of “prophecy” my understanding is comprised of Old and New Testament Sacred Writings (I do not delve in religions); also, my understanding of prophecy is God’s Revelation–I do not accept “diviners” (self–proclaimed prophets).

I concur with you that Scriptures are not meant to “prove” God’s Existence–they are a “medium” to gauge God’s Salvific Plan (which is comprised by both projected [prophecy] and actual Revelations).

…there’s an old movie that used the term “plans within plans”–that is how I see God’s Revelations, specially in the prophetic mode. So it does not surprise me that the chosen people of God could not see the forest for the trees because the Design was made in such way so that they would negate the Messiah in order for the those who were not the chosen people to gain entrance into the fold (prophesied several times over).

Again, I apologize for my misunderstanding of your position.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Contarini]

Hi, Edwin!
…sorry for the load off; I get flustered when “Catholics/Christians” seem to side on reason without Faith…

No need to apologize. I’ve been on this forum and other similar forums for a long while, and have experienced much worse.

I see my role here as a gadfly, presenting perspectives that may differ quite a bit from the common opinion. Hence, I expect to get pushback and it doesn’t bother me. You were not rude or offensive in any way.

Edwin

 

[Kanade]

Am I the only one that finds it very worrisome that alot of religions have had very detailed prophecies that ended up being true?

For example, in Jainism, there have been 24 previous Tirthankaras who have all prophesied their successor, and there seems to be historical evidence that all these people were historical figures. And they have very detailed past life stories and they also have very detailed future predictions about the next 24 Tirthankaras.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirthankara#T.C4.ABrtha.E1.B9.85karas_of_present_cosmic_age

Or how all the Buddhas have prophesied each other and were also believed to be historical figures.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddhas

Now some will say “These scriptures were written centuries after that prophet’s death”…but Eastern religions say they have used oral tradition for these stories from the get-go and their oral memories are repetitive to the point where error isn’t likely to take place…just like how Homer’s stories were passed on through the centuries before being put on paper.

Can someone educate me on how these prophesies from other religions’ scriptures are lesser than those of Christianity’s scriptures? What if those’ other religions prophecies come true?

Hi Ben

What is it about these prophecies that you find worrisome?

I don’t know much about the ones you cite, but prophecies are often only interpreted after the event has happened - I mean that they’re so non specific they could apply to anything and events are read back into them rather than being explicitly foretold (like Nostradamus). As you mentioned in your post, the passage of centuries between the prophecy and the recording could suggest a selective retelling. Even Biblical prophecies need interpretation, and people are still arguing about them today.

I’m not worried about prophecies from other religions - how many times have we been told that the world’s going to end? The ones that do seem to come true I guess are either lucky or, as Aquinas says, even demons can prophesy to the extent that they reveal knowledge that isn’t known to man, but isn’t coming from God (not that I’m saying other religions are demonic).

 

[jcrichton]

Hi Ben

What is it about these prophecies that you find worrisome?

I don’t know much about the ones you cite, but prophecies are often only interpreted after the event has happened - I mean that they’re so non specific they could apply to anything and events are read back into them rather than being explicitly foretold (like Nostradamus). As you mentioned in your post, the passage of centuries between the prophecy and the recording could suggest a selective retelling. Even Biblical prophecies need interpretation, and people are still arguing about them today.

I’m not worried about prophecies from other religions - how many times have we been told that the world’s going to end? The ones that do seem to come true I guess are either lucky or, as Aquinas says, even demons can prophesy to the extent that they reveal knowledge that isn’t known to man, but isn’t coming from God (not that I’m saying other religions are demonic).

Hi!
…we must also consider that there are Revelations made to men, even those who are not fully cognizant of God (the Magi, the Aztecs [these had revelations about the Virgin Mother woven into their culture as they awaited for the Son-God: (Our Lady of Guadalupe”]Our Lady of Guadalupe, and the various cleric, lay, and secular people whom God has engaged throughout the centuries)–how these Revelations are interpreted (within the Salvific Plan or outside of it) is of great import.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Kanade]

Hi!
…we must also consider that there are Revelations made to men, even those who are not fully cognizant of God (the Magi, the Aztecs [these had revelations about the Virgin Mother woven into their culture as they awaited for the Son-God: (Our Lady of Guadalupe”]Our Lady of Guadalupe

, and the various cleric, lay, and secular people whom God has engaged throughout the centuries)–how these Revelations are interpreted (within the Salvific Plan or outside of it) is of great import.

Maran atha!

Angel
Hi

Yes, definitely God can use “outsiders” like the Magi to further his word and all truth comes from God no matter where it’s found. And I do think we have to be careful with our interpretations (1 Jn 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world).