What to say if somebody says to me..."How did the kangaroos and koalas get to Australia? "

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Key words: “certain fixed points.”

God bless,
Ed
Ok, key phrase “certain fixed points”:

God is the author of creation.
Humans have inherent dignity.
The was one original sin, one fall.
The souls of humans are unique to creation.
Humans are created in the Image of God (memory, intellect and will).
Evolution isn’t an infallible doctrine.

These are certain fixed points, Catholics can hold onto the belief that God grows His creation through evolution without conflicting with any of the teachings of the Catholic Church. Thus, Catholics can accept theistic evolution as such a means. There has not been a pope who said that Catholics cannot believe as such.

-Prophecy
 
Ok, key phrase “certain fixed points”:

God is the author of creation.
Humans have inherent dignity.
The was one original sin, one fall.
The souls of humans are unique to creation.
Humans are created in the Image of God (memory, intellect and will).
Evolution isn’t an infallible doctrine.

These are certain fixed points, Catholics can hold onto the belief that God grows His creation through evolution without conflicting with any of the teachings of the Catholic Church. Thus, Catholics can accept theistic evolution as such a means. There has not been a pope who said that Catholics cannot believe as such.

-Prophecy
Forgot one - Eve came from Adam
 
Imho I think we can best forget or ignore the mutterings and conjectures of semi detached Christian/Catholic evolutionists.Lets in fact see what the real,no God,evolutionists have to say about Christianity and creationists.Let us first,note carefully that whilst some Christians want to latch on to or compromise with real evolutionists,the real evolutionists want nothing to do with them and their compromise and one foot in each camp stance - so lets see what real evolutionists have to say about them also - more later - twinc
Way to go with the ‘No Good Scotsman Fallacy’ :clapping:

Catholics who believe in evolution don’t understand real evolution cause real evolution is out to disprove God. But because these semi detached Catholics (detached presumably from the Church) have a non-sense desire to belong they compromise with these real evolutionists.

I do not, for the life of me, give one iota of a care towards the pronouncements of an atheist evolutionist mocking Catholics who believe in evolution. I do this in the same way that I do not, for the life of me, give one iota of care towards the pronouncements of a sedevacantist who mocks Catholics.

You are trying to draw a statement of authority, from a figure of authority whose authority I do not accept.

-Prophecy
 
Ok, key phrase “certain fixed points”:

God is the author of creation.
Humans have inherent dignity.
The was one original sin, one fall.
The souls of humans are unique to creation.
Humans are created in the Image of God (memory, intellect and will).
Evolution isn’t an infallible doctrine.

These are certain fixed points, Catholics can hold onto the belief that God grows His creation through evolution without conflicting with any of the teachings of the Catholic Church. Thus, Catholics can accept theistic evolution as such a means. There has not been a pope who said that Catholics cannot believe as such.

-Prophecy
And why is this so important? Reasons please. This is a non-issue that gets heavy rotation here for no particular reason. Can you give me a detailed list of what would happen if Christians don’t believe this?

God bless,
Ed
 
Forgot one - Eve came from Adam
I didn’t see that listed as one of the central points, do you have a document that might contain more so that I can make a comprehensive list of the central points?

-Prophecy
 
And why is this so important? Reasons please. This is a non-issue that gets heavy rotation here for no particular reason. Can you give me a detailed list of what would happen if Christians don’t believe this?

God bless,
Ed
You were the one that wanted to focus on ‘certain fixed points’, no?

-Prophecy
 
Nice dodge. Again - why is this important? A list of reasons would be good.

God bless,
Ed
I’m a counter player in my sport, dodging is one of my focuses. =p

Alright. I’ll do my best to give a short reason with each:

God is the author of creation. – Professed in the Creed (comes from the word credo, which means heart). If God isn’t the Creator, we are not His Creation.

Humans have inherent dignity. – without this abortion and murder, etc become permissible.
The was one original sin, one fall. – This would seem to imply that Jesus would need to have performed multiple sacrifices in order to cleanse humanity of it’s multiple original sins.

The souls of humans are unique to creation. – Humans, created in the Image of God, have the unique ability of blatantly worshiping God. Humanity stands above other creation in so as we can be present with God in the beatific vision (even in a way above the angels as I have heard described).

Humans are created in the Image of God (memory, intellect and will). – without this we cannot reason out God’s existence and all of our beliefs would require divine revelation.

Evolution isn’t an infallible doctrine. – Infallible pronouncements belong within the realm of the Church, i.e. the assumption of Mary, the Immaculate Conception.

I imagine that this is wholly unsatisfying.

-Prophecy
 
I’m a counter player in my sport, dodging is one of my focuses. =p

Alright. I’ll do my best to give a short reason with each:

God is the author of creation. – Professed in the Creed (comes from the word credo, which means heart). If God isn’t the Creator, we are not His Creation.

Humans have inherent dignity. – without this abortion and murder, etc become permissible.
The was one original sin, one fall. – This would seem to imply that Jesus would need to have performed multiple sacrifices in order to cleanse humanity of it’s multiple original sins.

The souls of humans are unique to creation. – Humans, created in the Image of God, have the unique ability of blatantly worshiping God. Humanity stands above other creation in so as we can be present with God in the beatific vision (even in a way above the angels as I have heard described).

Humans are created in the Image of God (memory, intellect and will). – without this we cannot reason out God’s existence and all of our beliefs would require divine revelation.

Evolution isn’t an infallible doctrine. – Infallible pronouncements belong within the realm of the Church, i.e. the assumption of Mary, the Immaculate Conception.

I imagine that this is wholly unsatisfying.

-Prophecy
You imagine correctly. The only reason I can see for the eternal defense of this idea is that nontheists base their lives on it. They believe we’re just a bag of chemicals.

God bless,
Ed
 
You imagine correctly. The only reason I can see for the eternal defense of this idea is that nontheists base their lives on it. They believe we’re just a bag of chemicals.

God bless,
Ed
But that doesn’t mean that it can be understood in a Catholic way. Aristotle was a pagan philosopher, but Thomas Aquinas wrought such beauty from his words. I believe the same is possible with evolution.

Subscribing to the belief that God grows His creation through evolution is by no means a compromise on my stance as a theist and Catholic.

There are people who base their entire lives off of things like social justice, political reform and the like, but I don’t think that we need to give up on matters of social justice because people don’t know the meaning of it.

-Prophecy
 
Wow. All the contributions that Catholics like Gregor Mendel, Nicholas Copernicus, Rene Descartes, Louis Pasteur, Georges Lemaître, et al have made to science (indeed, Fr. Stanley Jaki noting that suck scientific achievements were only possible in a Christian civilisation) and here we have some Catholics actually excommunicating others for having scientific knowledge. Or rather attempting to.

Ridiculous
 
When the theory of evolution was advanced,that was the date that the Judeo-Christian religion began the decline in which it now finds itself in the West.The two theories are point-blank in contradiction one to the other.Any scientists,any educators,any religious persons who state to you that there is no conflict simply want to hang on to both worlds because they have not been able to divest themselves of the infantile belief system which was programmed into them when they were children.They want a foot in each camp.Religion is their emotional security blanket.They are too cowardly to see religion should be abandoned so they stand there one foot in and one foot out[Editor American Atheist 1988][Daylight No.23] - twinc
 
I will agree that this post has gotten a little ridiculous, maybe even a little scandalous. I’ve witnessed a little too much venom in some of these posts to befit good Catholic brethren. There are a couple Church teachings that I don’t like much myself, but I wouldn’t dare stray from her on account of some of *my *opinions.

Now, to my knowledge, there is no official, dogmatic, authoritative teaching come down yet from the infallible chair of St. Peter in regards to the theory of evolution. But, the pope has indeed said that the theory of evolution (even in respect to man) is not contrary to Catholic teaching, as long as we do believe that at some point in history there was an Adam and an Eve.

The Book of Genesis is amazing on many different levels. I don’t agree with all the latest historical-critical understandings of it, but I do believe that the truth of our creation is told in a very mysterious way in Genesis. For example, the proof is rather evident that the “days” (the first seven, in particular) were a little longer than 24 hours. That, and so many other things in there, are unfortunately picked apart and misunderstood too often. As advanced as science has become in our present day, we still don’t understand but a small fraction of God’s creation. We must remember that the Bible, nonetheless inspired by the Holy Spirit, was first passed down verbally, then written, by men. Those who wrote the Book of Genesis had less scientific understanding than my eight-year old child. And, what they did understand was perceived in a very different way than we do today. Facts and data were less important to them. Even if we disagree with some sciences, we can’t help but see things in a more scientific way today.

That said, no matter how many people try to use science and scientific theories to disprove our faith, that does not mean that science is contrary to our faith or the Church. Darwin’s observations are valid, just as Galileo’s observations were. What is contrary to the faith are some of the conclusions drawn from such observations. We can’t deny evidence of something real when it is put before us. That kind of reaction has only helped to bring us where we are today in the public eye. We open ourselves up to intellectual criticism and mockery. We are perceived as superstitious and reactionary. That can lead too many souls away from the Church where they belong. We should want rather to study and understand these things in a way that seeks God as its end, to understand Him better by observing His creation in relation to the truth revealed in Sacred Scripture.

Of course there are those who will attempt to use science to discredit the word of God, just as the devil used Sacred Scripture himself to tempt our Lord in the desert by adding his own spin on it. So, I say, don’t deny the theory of evolution. It’s fairly proven in many respects. But, the conclusions of those that deny God as our creator on the basis of evolution… woe to them, the poor fools.

Jesus tells us how our Father cares for even the birds (Lk 12:24), that he feeds them, in particular. It doesn’t say *how *he feeds them. I’ve never run across any divine looking feeding dishes in my journies thru the woods. Who can say that the evolution of a creature to better feed itself is not one of the many ways that God cares for them? Our planet has gone thru many natural changes in its long life… why is it so hard to believe that creatures can’t undergo changes to better survive?

I feel I’ve written too much. Mostly, I wanted to remind some of you folks to speak to one another a little more lovingly. I also hope I have helped the person with the original question a little bit. Like the answer to so many questions, this is a mystery.
 
When the theory of evolution was advanced,that was the date that the Judeo-Christian religion began the decline in which it now finds itself in the West.The two theories are point-blank in contradiction one to the other.Any scientists,any educators,any religious persons who state to you that there is no conflict simply want to hang on to both worlds because they have not been able to divest themselves of the infantile belief system which was programmed into them when they were children.They want a foot in each camp.Religion is their emotional security blanket.They are too cowardly to see religion should be abandoned so they stand there one foot in and one foot out[Editor American Atheist 1988][Daylight No.23] - twinc
:rolleyes: So you won’t listen to Catholics that tell you that the theory of evolution may contain some scientific truth but you’re more than happy to listen to atheists who tell you that evolution and faith are incompatible?
 
:rolleyes: So you won’t listen to Catholics that tell you that the theory of evolution may contain some scientific truth but you’re more than happy to listen to atheists who tell you that evolution and faith are incompatible?
this is not about me - I am not prepared to listen to either - to me the Bible and Catholic teaching and Evolution are incompatible and diametrically opposite and opposed - twinc
 
Imho I think we can best forget or ignore the mutterings and conjectures of semi detached Christian/Catholic evolutionists.Lets in fact see what the real,no God,evolutionists have to say about Christianity and creationists.Let us first,note carefully that whilst some Christians want to latch on to or compromise with real evolutionists,the real evolutionists want nothing to do with them and their compromise and one foot in each camp stance - so lets see what real evolutionists have to say about them also - more later - twinc
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0401fea1.asp

Alice von Hildebrand wrote this article entitled The Curse of Wrong Alternatives. It is a warning that finding a theory that is wrong does not warrant clinging to a theory which is the exact opposite of it. As Catholics we reject the claim that God doesn’t exist, but just because some people get to that conclusion through the theory of evolution does not mean that it is a good idea to embrace Special Creation. Do you have any proof of the intentions of Catholic evolutionists in pursuing their theories?
 
When the theory of evolution was advanced,that was the date that the Judeo-Christian religion began the decline in which it now finds itself in the West.The two theories are point-blank in contradiction one to the other.Any scientists,any educators,any religious persons who state to you that there is no conflict simply want to hang on to both worlds because they have not been able to divest themselves of the infantile belief system which was programmed into them when they were children.They want a foot in each camp.Religion is their emotional security blanket.They are too cowardly to see religion should be abandoned so they stand there one foot in and one foot out[Editor American Atheist 1988][Daylight No.23] - twinc
So, JPII, infantile in his beliefs?

-Prophecy
 
this is not about me - I am not prepared to listen to either - to me the Bible and Catholic teaching and Evolution are incompatible and diametrically opposite and opposed - twinc
Including apparently the Catholic teaching that they aren’t.

-Prophecy
 
I will agree that this post has gotten a little ridiculous, maybe even a little scandalous. I’ve witnessed a little too much venom in some of these posts to befit good Catholic brethren. There are a couple Church teachings that I don’t like much myself, but I wouldn’t dare stray from her on account of some of *my *opinions.

Now, to my knowledge, there is no official, dogmatic, authoritative teaching come down yet from the infallible chair of St. Peter in regards to the theory of evolution. But, the pope has indeed said that the theory of evolution (even in respect to man) is not contrary to Catholic teaching, as long as we do believe that at some point in history there was an Adam and an Eve.

The Book of Genesis is amazing on many different levels. I don’t agree with all the latest historical-critical understandings of it, but I do believe that the truth of our creation is told in a very mysterious way in Genesis. For example, the proof is rather evident that the “days” (the first seven, in particular) were a little longer than 24 hours. That, and so many other things in there, are unfortunately picked apart and misunderstood too often. As advanced as science has become in our present day, we still don’t understand but a small fraction of God’s creation. We must remember that the Bible, nonetheless inspired by the Holy Spirit, was first passed down verbally, then written, by men. Those who wrote the Book of Genesis had less scientific understanding than my eight-year old child. And, what they did understand was perceived in a very different way than we do today. Facts and data were less important to them. Even if we disagree with some sciences, we can’t help but see things in a more scientific way today.

That said, no matter how many people try to use science and scientific theories to disprove our faith, that does not mean that science is contrary to our faith or the Church. Darwin’s observations are valid, just as Galileo’s observations were. What is contrary to the faith are some of the conclusions drawn from such observations. We can’t deny evidence of something real when it is put before us. That kind of reaction has only helped to bring us where we are today in the public eye. We open ourselves up to intellectual criticism and mockery. We are perceived as superstitious and reactionary. That can lead too many souls away from the Church where they belong. We should want rather to study and understand these things in a way that seeks God as its end, to understand Him better by observing His creation in relation to the truth revealed in Sacred Scripture.

Of course there are those who will attempt to use science to discredit the word of God, just as the devil used Sacred Scripture himself to tempt our Lord in the desert by adding his own spin on it. So, I say, don’t deny the theory of evolution. It’s fairly proven in many respects. But, the conclusions of those that deny God as our creator on the basis of evolution… woe to them, the poor fools.

Jesus tells us how our Father cares for even the birds (Lk 12:24), that he feeds them, in particular. It doesn’t say *how *he feeds them. I’ve never run across any divine looking feeding dishes in my journies thru the woods. Who can say that the evolution of a creature to better feed itself is not one of the many ways that God cares for them? Our planet has gone thru many natural changes in its long life… why is it so hard to believe that creatures can’t undergo changes to better survive?

I feel I’ve written too much. Mostly, I wanted to remind some of you folks to speak to one another a little more lovingly. I also hope I have helped the person with the original question a little bit. Like the answer to so many questions, this is a mystery.
of course you have got it all mixed up but are not aware that this is so,perhaps because you are already convinced which you seem to be according to what you say especially if you are only looking for divine feeding bowls -no body is disputing that creatures undergo changes to survive,this is variation or micro evolution but dogs will always be dogs[canine or vulpine] and cats will always be cats[feline] - there never was any evolution,there is not now nor ever can possibly be so who has kidded you who cannot be kidded - twinc
 
Why would Catholics be able to research and discuss evolution but not accept it as a means of God growing His creation? Catholics cannot research IVF, nor methods of abortion, nor artificial birth control. While we can discuss these topics, if we are going to do that from a perspective of Catholicism, we must do so with the position contra these acts.

We are able to research evolution because, as John Paul II stated there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of faith, in so as certain points are kept (the primacy of God, human dignity, the special act of creation that is our soul, etc.).

If you want to say that a faithful Catholic can by no means accept evolution as a tool of God in growing His creation, you are saying much more than what the pontificate has.

-Prophecy
of course you have got it wrong again because you did not carefully read what has been stated - Evolution is not acceptable and,therefore,is not even once mentioned in the Catechism what could be researched and discussed is stated at para 5 "Thus,the Teaching of the Church leaves the doctrine of Evolution an open question only as long as it confines its speculations to the development,from other living matter already in existence, of the human body - so it is not evolution that can be researched and discussed but only the human body etc - twinc
 
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