What to tell a non-christian (Homosexuality & slavery)

[LovePatience]

In pursuit of the truth, a saint can be a saint for faithfully obeying the Church’s teaching or for challenging the Church when wrong while acting in respectful obedience, i.e. St. Francis of Assisi, St. Joan of Arc, or St. Catherine of Siena.

Your friend should focus on Christ. Did he live or die? Do miracles really exist? If so, then the fact that Popes sometimes sin or do wrong is no more an impediment to faith than the fact that because medications are sometimes revoked by the Food and Drug Administration means that all modern medicine is useless.

 

[TempleofTheSoul]

On Slavery, the Church made a BIG mistake that was not in accord with what God wanted.

There were Popes for slavery. romancatholicism.org/popes-slavery.htm

If this is true then it is a very disturbing revelation indeed. But considering that the website source when you search through comes across as **anti-Catholic ** and looking to post about any kind of dirt they can find about the Roman Catholic Church. I will let others who are learned in the history of the Popes and slavery state what they think about your post.

God bless

 

[LovePatience]

Ignoring the person’s statement because he is anti-Catholic is committing the logical fallacy “Ad hominem” – attacking the arguer instead of the argument. However, there is a book: The Popes and Slavery by Fr. Joel S. Panzer that should also testify to the truth of these statements.

It often is that your enemies are the ones who have the most motivation to do through research on your failings. Truth is not determined according to whether a person writing the truth has the right/wrong intentions but according to whether it is true. A pro-Catholic may see a sin/falsehood and seek out of love to correct this falsehood from the Church (St. Francis of Assisi) while an anti-Catholic may see a sin/falsehood and seek out of hate to destroy the Church (Martin Luther). What the intention of the person who sees the sin/falsehood does not negate the existence of the sin/falsehood.

Take the Vatican:

The Vatican established this office, the Promoter of the Faith, aka the Devil’s Advocate, in 1587, during the reign of Pope Sixtus V. The church retained this institution for over 400 years until 1983. It intended that this reform would ensure that the canonization proceeded with due care, and that the candidate truly deserved the status of sainthood.

Pope John Paul II abolished this office in 1983. This reform served to provide a “fast track” to sainthood. Prior to John Paul’s reign, only 98 candidates achieved this elevation. Once he became the Pope, the church canonized at least 500 candidates, and 1,300 individuals were also beatified during his tenure.

However, the Vatican may still call for priests to assume the role of Devil’s Advocate in any circumstance where the candidate for sainthood is controversial. It requested the American columnist, Christopher Hitchens, investigate Mother Theresa’s claim to sainthood and testify to the Vatican committee against her beatification in 2002.

Read more at Suite101: Canonizing the Saints, the Devil’s Advocate, and Mother Theresa | Suite101.com diane-evans.suite101.com/canonization-of-saints-the-devils-advocate-and-mother-theresa-a334629#ixzz1itRnA6XM

The fact that Hitchens’s primary goal in life was to destroy the Church does not mean that any logical or truthful arguments that he had are not logical or true.

 

[atheistgirl]

If this is true then it is a very disturbing revelation indeed. But considering that the website source when you search through comes across as **anti-Catholic ** and looking to post about any kind of dirt they can find about the Roman Catholic Church. I will let others who are learned in the history of the Popes and slavery state what they think about your post.

God bless

This seems to be a catholic site and you can find the document here too:

papalencyclicals.net/Paul03/p3subli.htm

If you do a search on CAF you’ll also see it’s been discussed a few times.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

The fact that Hitchens’s primary goal in life was to destroy the Church does not mean that any logical or truthful arguments that he had are not logical or true.

True. I’ve seen him interviewed a few times and when this was brought up, he does seem to have enjoyed his time at the Vatican, and spoke with great respect about those he had dealings with, and said he was also treated with great respect.

Sarah x

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

True. I’ve seen him interviewed a few times and when this was brought up, he does seem to have enjoyed his time at the Vatican, and spoke with great respect about those he had dealings with, and said he was also treated with great respect.

Sarah x

People at the Vatican are generally quite polite.

 

[Hadrianus]

On Slavery, the Church made a BIG mistake that was not in accord with what God wanted.

There were Popes for slavery. romancatholicism.org/popes-slavery.htm

This was a political decision. If it concerned Sicily, that Kingdom was traditionally held to be a fief of the Papacy as a secular ruler. The Popes as secular rulers did all sorts of things including waging war. But these acts cannot be called acts of the Church.

 

[LovePatience]

This was a political decision. If it concerned Sicily, that Kingdom was traditionally held to be a fief of the Papacy as a secular ruler. The Popes as secular rulers did all sorts of things including waging war. But these acts cannot be called acts of the Church.

If the Church claims some responsibility for building Western civilization realclearreligion.org/2011/12/28/how_catholics_built_western_civilization_245366.html, it must also claim some responsibility for supporting slavery. And it has: “in the tenth century, bishops in Venice did public penance for past involvement in the Moorish slave trade and sought to prevent all Venetians from involvement in slavery.” christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/julyweb-only/7-14-53.0.html

To the Church’s credit, her members (or other Christians) also helped end slavery as a whole in Western civilization. First, slavery among Europeans ended due to the influence of the Church and the gaining consciousness wrongness of enslaving fellow Christians. Sadly, many Christians and Catholics still felt justified in enslaving so-called pagans. Then many Christians led the way in ending the Transatlantic slave trade. For example, John Newman inspired William Wilberforce to end slavery in the British empire after almost dying and fearing Hell. And the Popes issued excommunications against slave-traders even prior to the abolishment of the Transatlantic slave trade. They largely weren’t listened to and many bishops, especially the American hierarchy, interpreted Papal condemnation of slavery in the least restrictive way possible. There has been division in the Church on related issues and between Popes. For example, Fr. Tolton was the first African-American priest in the United States and a former slave. No Catholic seminary in the United States would admit him due to the color of his skin so the Pope ordained him in Rome.

It is dishonest to deny the role of the Catholic church in slavery. The Devil is the father of lies so that will not serve the Church. The saints are designated as imperfect inspirations with Christ and Mary as perfect inspirations. Not every Pope is a saint. Consider that the first person in the Catholic Church was hurt by a so-called Christian’s sin was Jesus as he was betrayed by Peter and Judas. A great many saints were ordained despite controversy of many in the Church, St. John of the Cross was kidnapped by the Calced Carmelite priory at Toledo as a prisoner until he escaped. It was there he wrote much of his Spiritual Canticle. St. Joan of Arc was killed. St. Edith Stein wrote letters of disappointment in the Church. St. Francis of Assisi devoted his life to reform. “Never take a man for your example in the tasks you have to perform, how ever holy he may be, for the devil will set his imperfection before you. Imitate Christ, who is supremely perfect and supremely holy, and you will never err.” - St. John of the Cross Democracy is the so called worst form of government except for all the others. Harvard has professors who plagarize and fake discoveries. The Catholic Church is full of sinners but is still the only path to moral perfection.

Stalin’s Russia was and North Korea is a slave state led by atheists. I would like to know of a non-Christian who helped end the Translatlantic slave trade. Google is the first I’ve heard of nonChristians playing a significant role in helping to end any slavery at all.