What type of music would you like at Mass?

[elliotfc]

he funny thing is that often times the organist would try to play over the bad singing cantor, but the cantor would just sing louder into the microphone. It did not make for a good spiritual experience.

At my prideful and stubborn worst, and this has happened four or five times in the last 15 years, I will purposely play a song as it “ought” to be played, knowing full well that I will be demonstrating to the congregation that the cantor doesn’t know what he/she is doing.

I learned this from an obstinate cantor while I was in high school who had no tolerance for my learning on the job. She would get shouty when I would get clueless. I hated it, but I was meek and hapless.

The way I see it, the accompaniast should always do whatever is necessary to support the cantor during a mass, even if what she/he is doing is out-of-order. That can be discussed after mass. I am really concerned with how the cantors appear to the congregation, and when they look bad, I cringe. Because if a congregation doesn’t respect a cantor, they won’t follow a cantor’s lead.

And when asked, I never blame a cantor for anything. At least not directly. They are volunteers and I respect that.

So, instead of me complaining away and at the encouragement of the people I mentioned above, I decided to become one of two teenaged cantors at our parish. And for me it has been a wonderful spiritual experience for the last 10 years. But if the Church decided that it is no longer necessary to have cantors and that the instrumentalist musicians and the choirs are good enough, I’ll be fine with that as well. The little rural parish, I talk about so often with admiration never had a cantor. They just have an organ and they sing very well without one.

Congregations LOVE young musicians and young cantors. Nothing against everybody else, but it’s true. Which means if there are baby organists out there they will be treated very well at whatever church they land in. I just turned the bad side of 30 so I really don’t qualify anymore.

 

[Sarabande]

A lifeless cantor is not helpful. A cantor who is uncertain, or who is unprepared, is in his/her own way a disruption to the mass. I get the attitude sometimes from a parishioner that “anyone can sing” so anyone could be a cantor but I disagree.

I fully agree with you on that. I just wrote post regarding horrendous cantors.

Also, cantors often learn not to care about congregational participation through practice. At funerals and weddings there simply is no participation 90% of the time, so you learn to sing at people, and since the pay is better and you have to dress better you take these occasions more seriously. I think leading mass, which is either done for free or for a nominal fee, is harder to do. You have to approach it differently.

I’m in agreement with you there as well, although I am also paid to be a cantor at our regular masses as well at our weddings and funerals. Fortunately, for weddings and funerals, we sing from the choir loft next to the organ so that we are not a visible disruption to the people participating in the funeral or wedding. So we are not singing at the people. There is no change in the way I dress for a funeral/wedding and a weekly mass, so I take every mass seriously with the same fervor even if some of the music for weddings may be more of a challenge and more enjoyable to sing.

I think some cantors believe that since it’s a hymn, it’s easy to sing. That is not the case. Yes, the music is easier, but it is not easier to sing. It is the same and sometimes a little different because we are not supposed to sing it like a soloist, but as someone singing with the congregation. Just like when I have to chant something like the Andrews’ “I Saw Water” for the sprinkling rite, I don’t sing it like an opera singer (I’m trained operatically). I sing it with as little vibrato as possible and with a brighter sound. The music naturally calls for that. But some people, even well-trained singers, don’t understand the difference between cantoring and singing solos. Also, some cantors don’t realize that chanting psalodies may be more difficult than what it looks. I know that some of our wedding soloists who do not cantor have to spend more time rehearsing the Gelineau psalms with our organist than someone like me who has experience singing/chanting the verses.

 

[Sarabande]

Congregations LOVE young musicians and young cantors. Nothing against everybody else, but it’s true. Which means if there are baby organists out there they will be treated very well at whatever church they land in. I just turned the bad side of 30 so I really don’t qualify anymore.

What are you talking about? You’re still young. I’ve seen many 30-year-olds who look like they are in their lower 20s. People are always shocked when they find out how old I am. They always think I look a lot younger. I sometimes get mistaken as a teenager. It recently occurred while performing in a production of “Carmen”. In the wig lady’s defense, she hadn’t heard me sing yet. One of my 14 year-old-students said to me once (this was when I was in my mid-twenties and teaching. I no longer teach), “You act like you’re 24, but you look like you’re 16.” Needless-to-say, the first few months of my first year of teaching was a challenge to get those older kids to look at me as a teacher rather than a peer. And when I was a teenager, it was always the opposite. I looked like a grown woman when I was 14. I’m very thankful that has changed. ha! ha!

 

[elliotfc]

What are you talking about? You’re still young. I’ve seen many 30-year-olds who look like they are in their lower 20s. People are always shocked when they find out how old I am. They always think I look a lot younger. I sometimes get mistaken as a teenager. It recently occurred while performing in a production of “Carmen”. In the wig lady’s defense, she hadn’t heard me sing yet. One of my 14 year-old-students said to me once (this was when I was in my mid-twenties and teaching. I no longer teach), “You act like you’re 24, but you look like you’re 16.” Needless-to-say, the first few months of my first year of teaching was a challenge to get those older kids to look at me as a teacher rather than a peer. And when I was a teenager, it was always the opposite. I looked like a grown woman when I was 14. I’m very thankful that has changed. ha! ha!

Thanks for being nice to the elderly arf arf.

I’m quitting my church job…everyone’s telling me to make sure they get someone who’s young. Really. And good looking…and funny…and modest…

 

[Sarabande]

Thanks for being nice to the elderly arf arf.

Ha! Ha! I guess, then, I’m elderly too. I only said I look a lot younger than what I am, but I don’t like to say my age because in the opera world you have to be younger than your real age. It stinks. So, if anyone asks, I’m 24. wink, wink.

I’m quitting my church job…everyone’s telling me to make sure they get someone who’s young. Really. And good looking…and funny…and modest…

Gosh… they’re a tough crowd. If you don’t tell them how old you are, then they won’t know that you’re “old”. And anyway, what about wanting someone who is talented as a musician and intelligent, which I’m sure you have? I’m also sure you have the other qualities that they mentioned. Really, 30 isn’t old. It’s all a state of mind. If you feel young and take care of yourself, you’ll always appear younger than you are. BTW - Are you really quitting your church job? Why?

 

[elliotfc]

Ha! Ha! I guess, then, I’m elderly too. I only said I look a lot younger than what I am, but I don’t like to say my age because in the opera world you have to be younger than your real age. It stinks. So, if anyone asks, I’m 24. wink, wink.

OK I’ll remember this, I got your back.

Gosh… they’re a tough crowd. If you don’t tell them how old you are, then they won’t know that you’re “old”.

I was being a facetious goof, of course I’m relatively young. My choir is relatively older and I think they’re keen on having someone younger, for whatever reasons.

BTW - Are you really quitting your church job? Why?

Burned out. No benefits. Starting to get petulant with people. I joined the Army, keyboard player is me gig. They’re sending me to music school on their dime.

If you know anyone in Long Island who wants an organist job…

 

[Sarabande]

OK I’ll remember this, I got your back.

Thanks!!!

Burned out. No benefits. Starting to get petulant with people. I joined the Army, keyboard player is me gig. They’re sending me to music school on their dime.

I totally understand. No need to say more.

If you know anyone in Long Island who wants an organist job…

Actually… I might. I have a friend who is looking to get out of his organist position at a church in our city. Wacko pastor. Can’t really say anymore than that. What parish is it? If you don’t want to say here, private message me.

 

[lak611]

Burned out. No benefits. Starting to get petulant with people. I joined the Army, keyboard player is me gig. They’re sending me to music school on their dime.

That is nice. I never knew that Army band had piano or organ. I thought it was marching band.

 

[elliotfc]

Actually… I might. I have a friend who is looking to get out of his organist position at a church in our city. Wacko pastor. Can’t really say anymore than that. What parish is it? If you don’t want to say here, private message me.

No, the more people who see this…

My church is St. Luke in Brentwood. The job would pay a yearly salary of about $27,000, depending on the number of funerals/weddings. 10-12 hours a week. Not a bad gig, but it does include the Saturday night mass and Sunday morning mass.

Cheers!

 

[elliotfc]

That is nice. I never knew that Army band had piano or organ. I thought it was marching band.

Most bands in the army use a keyboard these days, didn’t use to be that way.

I’ll also have to learn to hit the big drum whilst marching…

 

[mirandajb]

Given the choices taken here I wonder if anyone ever hopes that post V2 Roman Catholicism will ever stop its Protestant slide. I rejected the RC Church in part because of this type of music.

Reclaim your patrimony and forget about the Protestants.

CDL

Isn’t Graham Kendrik Protestant? He wrote “Shine Jesus Shine” - what a great song. There are some great songs written by Protestants that really glorify God exceedingly and are truly Spirit filled. Let us not be so parochial.

 

[Eileen_T]

Our new PP (early 40’s) has re-vamped the music at Mass.

Yesterday, for Pentecost, we had *Come Holy Ghost Creator Come, Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent, Jesus My Lord My God My All, Hail Queen of Heaven and Immaculate Mother * (last Sunday in May) and the organ music during Communion was Ave Maria.

He’s bringing back the beautiful Catholic hymns, the treasure of the Church.

 

[lak611]

Our new PP (early 40’s) has re-vamped the music at Mass.

Yesterday, for Pentecost, we had *Come Holy Ghost Creator Come, Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent, Jesus My Lord My God My All, Hail Queen of Heaven and Immaculate Mother * (last Sunday in May) and the organ music during Communion was Ave Maria.

He’s bringing back the beautiful Catholic hymns, the treasure of the Church.

We had Come Holy Ghost, Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent, and the Magnificat (sung to the tune of New Britain–same melody as for Amazing Grace).

 

[Sarabande]

We also had “Come Holy Ghost” (Lambillotte), “O Breathe on Me, O Breath of God” (St. Columbia), and “O Holy Spirit, by Whose Breath” (Puer Nobis)

 

[Mannyfit75]

Gregorian.

 

[elliotfc]

Isn’t Graham Kendrik Protestant? He wrote “Shine Jesus Shine” - what a great song. There are some great songs written by Protestants that really glorify God exceedingly and are truly Spirit filled. Let us not be so parochial.

Marty Haugen is Lutheran.

Dan Schutte is Jesuit, arf arf.

 

[EHRAM]

I like music with four part harmony in the hymnals so that I can sing the alto part.

I like to have a variety of instruments (played well) as accompaniments, e.g. organ, guitar, flute, strings, trumpet…

I also like many of the hymns the Methodists and Episcopalians sing, as long as they are consistent with Catholic theology.

I also like it when the notes for the service music is in the hymnal, missal, or a bulletin. All too often when I visit a different parish, I cannot sing the Gloria or Sanctus, etc. because I don’t know the melody and I cannot find it any place in the pew.

 

[Guitar]

Someone asked why “organists” play pieces of music like it is a funeral dirge. If they are good organists and musicians, that doesn’t happen. I’m fortunate to work with one of the best in the city, so I’m a bit spoiled. BUT I have worked with some really awful musicians who take up the organ, but aren’t real organists.

Not on the OP’s topic but I’ll offer a supplementary explanation.

Many musicians and singers look at the style of performance in the big churches as the gold standard that everyone out in the 'burbs should aspire to. The real hotshot choirs and organists are often installed in thumping great buildings with long reverb times. On top of the reverb, not all organs speak instantly on all stops and if the pipes are distant from the console or the choir, it adds to the problem. End result - slow tempi are sometimes necessary in those venues for clarity and to avoid a washy mess. Professional performers of all sorts adjust their tempi all the time to cater for acoustics. But recordings of these high-profile groups become for some the standard to be emulated and they unconsciously absorb the idea that slow = holy, because that’s how they hear the professionals do it. So it must be The Right Way.

Then they play a piano in a tiny little church with acoustics like the inside of a flour sack at the same tempo …

 

[dandn5000]

I want something singable.

At my parish, the organist is the main cantor and a few of my friends(we’re middle school/high school) sing up in the choir loft as well. The problem is that the key she sings in is high, and because she’s one of the few people able to sing it, she overpowers everyone, congregation or otherwise. We’ve asked her to lower it some, but she hasn’t yet. Its still sung well, its just difficult for the rest of us as well. A lot of the time its easy enough to compensate for it by going a key lower myself, but with songs such as O Holy Mary, its impossible because in places its a bit high for me, but if I try to lower the key when I sing it it becomes too low in parts.

Gregorian Chant’s nice as well. It is absolutely amazing how when we do the usual Holy, Lamb of God, Amen, etc, all’s we can hear is us upstairs because of the organ being three feet behind us(its a little tight up there), but you break out the Sanctus, Agnus Dei and Gregorian Amen you can hear the congregation belt. It’s awesome. I’m not sure if I just notice them more because I’m not really used to singing Gregorian(we’ve only done it a few times and I haven’t quite got the whole thing down yet, plus the fact that I never get to sing half the Sanctus because by the time we realize we’re doing Latin instead of the usual and flip to the page in the back of the Music Issue, its half over) or if its really true that more people sing it and sing it louder.

 

[New_Mexico_Mary]

I enjoy most music, but for the Mass I am really aggrivated with the use of spanish hymns at the english Mass - how do we teach our kids to participate when they do not understand a word that is being sung. At least with Chant or the hymns in Latin I can help guide them, in a foreign language I am as lost as they are.