What type of music would you like at Mass?

[sosayi1960]

I am a woman, and I am against “inclusive language”. I also have no problem with saying “for us men and for our salvation” in the Nicene Creed. Inclusive language waters down and changes the meaning of the Bible, the hymns and the prayers.

How could saying that “for us, and for our salvation” water down and change the meaning of scripture? Isn’t this the same Church who doesn’t believe that you are fully human? Jesus came and died for men and women. In Christ, there is no male or female.
I think the Church needs to recognise that God looks at the soul and not at the gender.

 

[SeekerJen]

Still surprised by the requests for 4 part hymnals - I just can’t believe most folks know a bass from a treble clef and the notes for a tenor or bass/baritone must look like ants on a graph. Just give them the melody in a decent range.

This surprises me, too. I also cannot believe that most people are able to read their parts in SATB, that most people even know which part they should be singing, or that many of them can even read the music. I’m not trying to be insulting, just realistic. I’ve sung in choirs where many of the participants could not read the music and had to learn their parts by rote. I’m doubting that the several-hundred-person congregation’s demographics would be any different.

As for what type of music: traditional hymns, either English or Latin (provided the congregation understands basic Latin pronunciation, otherwise they will not sing at all). “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name”, “Crown Him With Many Crowns”, “Love Divine, All Loves Excelling”, “O Come O Come Emmanuel”, “Come Holy Ghost”, “Now Thank We All Our God” and similar all elicit major participation from the congregation. Haugen is fine for psalms as he has written some lovely settings (he seems to be fine if he doesn’t write the lyrics).

 

[MusicMan]

I use the following parameters when selecting the hymns for Mass:

1.) They must be theologically sound from the Catholic perspective.
2.) They must either tie in to the readings of the day, the theme of the day, or the season.
3.) People must be able and willing to sing them.(As no one in our church sings during Communion, I don’t often use this parameter when selecting Communion music).

I also try to strike a balance between the traditional hymns in our hymnals and the contemporary music that people will sing. Haugen, Haas, Schutte, and the like may have some stinkers, but they do have some music that fits the above parameters, and there are people who actually like their music. The goal is to have people worship the Lord through music, not to have a concert of Palestrina, nor is it to impose your own tastes on people.

My church couldn’t handle all Chant. We have an outstanding Contemporary Group, but no one sings with them. They either want to listen, don’t feel that they can sing along, or don’t feel like they should. When my group sings, everyone sings along because I select music, and we approach it in such a way, that encourages people to sing.

 

[wynd]

But, I do LOVE the music of the Eastern Orthodox Churches and never heard the ones from your rite Gregory, they must be quite similar I guess?

If you would like to hear some you can listen here

 

[rwoehmke]

melody intended for group singing, not for a soloist, familiar.
play at the proper tempo in the proper key–where in school do they teach you guys to play everything as if you were at a funeral?

provide an aid with the words, and with the music if we are learning a new tune, but do bear in mind not all of us read music, so give us a shot at learning a new melody.

play the melody on the instruments for which the piece was written. a guitar choir should stick to guitar music and an organ choir should stick to organ music.

lyrics that are theologically correct, poetic, and relate to the season or feast.

if the group has no skill on the instruments, sing without them. If the leaders can’t sing, don’t. Please practice beforehand so everyone in your group is on the same song same key.

Amen! Amen! Amen!

 

[ltbpoe43]

lak611 - if you are out there -
or anyone else in the cantor/choir/director role

You mentioned Haugen/Hass music/lyrics are awful?

We’ve been singing these for years out of the Gather Hymnal (by Oregon Catholic Press - I think).

It seems a lot of it comes straight from scripture as is noted on the bottom with the references to the passages.

Is it just personal? I’ve seen a lot of similar comments from other posters and I’m getting a little worried. We do use a lot of SATB music other the Gather - but the congregations love the old standards they’ve grown to know and love.

Your thoughts would be helpful to an old cantor like me. Thanks.

 

[lak611]

lak611 - if you are out there -
or anyone else in the cantor/choir/director role

You mentioned Haugen/Hass music/lyrics are awful?

We’ve been singing these for years out of the Gather Hymnal (by Oregon Catholic Press - I think).

It seems a lot of it comes straight from scripture as is noted on the bottom with the references to the passages.

Is it just personal? I’ve seen a lot of similar comments from other posters and I’m getting a little worried. We do use a lot of SATB music other the Gather - but the congregations love the old standards they’ve grown to know and love.

Your thoughts would be helpful to an old cantor like me. Thanks.

I just dislike Haugen/Haas because their music sounds like the folk music of the 1960’s. I do not mind some 1960’s folk music. I have actually seen Bob Dylan in concert; but Dylan’s music is not appropriate for Mass. For Mass,I prefer classic hymns over hippy music that is not relevant to my generation. The classic hymns are timeless. They were written before any of the members of the Church today were born. I want music that is timeless for the Mass, not something that appeals only to people of the baby boom generation.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

You mentioned Haugen/Hass music/lyrics are awful?

We’ve been singing these for years out of the Gather Hymnal (by Oregon Catholic Press - I think).

It seems a lot of it comes straight from scripture as is noted on the bottom with the references to the passages.

Many contemporary hymns are only loose references to Scripture passages or Psalms – one good reason why the Responsorial Psalm should be sung as the Lectionary presents it and never be substituted with a hymn. Oregon Catholic Press has a nasty habit of removing gender-specific pronouns like “he,”“him,”“mankind,” and the like, even when referring to God. Therefore, if something appears to be a quote from Scripture, after OCP is finished with it, it is just a paraphrase. One classic example, Sr. Suzanne Toolan’s “I Am the Bread of Life” was originally a quotation from John 6 (“he who comes to Me shall not hunger, he who believes in Me…”). After Glory and Praise was acquired by OCP, they changed the lyrics into the second person (you who come to me…), thus removing the lyrics from their position as a direct quote from the Book of John and rendering them a poor paraphrase. Similar alterations were done to other songs like “The Cry of the Poor” and “For The Fruits of This (HIS) Creation.” Look at any “traditional” hymn in their books and you’ll almost always see the abbreviation “alt.” after the composer’s name.

 

[Sarabande]

lak611 - if you are out there -
or anyone else in the cantor/choir/director role

You mentioned Haugen/Hass music/lyrics are awful?

We’ve been singing these for years out of the Gather Hymnal (by Oregon Catholic Press - I think).

It seems a lot of it comes straight from scripture as is noted on the bottom with the references to the passages.

Is it just personal? I’ve seen a lot of similar comments from other posters and I’m getting a little worried. We do use a lot of SATB music other the Gather - but the congregations love the old standards they’ve grown to know and love.

Your thoughts would be helpful to an old cantor like me. Thanks.

See my post regarding Haugen/Haas on page three from this thread on May 10th.

 

[jc-servant]

Why cant my parish have you or even anyone who cares about music???

I hate to complain so often about it, but It really makes me upset.

Sorry to say, and yes I am an orthodox catholic, and yes I still see its more than that,

but come on now!

How hard is this to pull off?
We have NO TALENT at our parish. NONE/

Maybe the people who used to volunteer at your parish got tired of parishioners complaining about the music. I suggest that if you like music and are not tone deaf that you volunteer. It is not that difficult to learn to read basic sheet music or even to have decent pitch. It is not all about natural “talent” but more about learned skills that slowly build over time. I’ve been told that I have an excellent singing voice (now in my early 40s), but I know that whatever I sound like now is the result of years of hard work and a desire to improve rather than some great natural talent. I was insulted and brought to tears by the choir director in 7th grade, but by the 9th grade I won the lead in a musical. One of my CRHP sisters wanted to sing, so she found a vocal coach and took some lessons as an adult.

I found a little book with a cd called “Lead Singer” that teaches basic music reading, pitch and sight reading. However, we have a few people in our choir with nice (untrained) voices who cannot read music yet. They bring a small recorder to rehearsal and then memorize their part before Sunday. They just use the sheet music to keep up with the words.

My parish is huge and we have had turn over in the choir due to egos, life changes (new babies), etc. Our music director has also let us know that no matter what we sing he still gets complaints (some anonymous and rude, others not). There are a number of good voices singing from the pews because they are tired of the drama and for many other reasons. I really encourage you to give it a shot rather than just bemoaning the lack of “talent.”

 

[lak611]

Many contemporary hymns are only loose references to Scripture passages or Psalms – one good reason why the Responsorial Psalm should be sung as the Lectionary presents it and never be substituted with a hymn. Oregon Catholic Press has a nasty habit of removing gender-specific pronouns like “he,”“him,”“mankind,” and the like, even when referring to God. Therefore, if something appears to be a quote from Scripture, after OCP is finished with it, it is just a paraphrase. One classic example, Sr. Suzanne Toolan’s “I Am the Bread of Life” was originally a quotation from John 6 (“he who comes to Me shall not hunger, he who believes in Me…”). After Glory and Praise was acquired by OCP, they changed the lyrics into the second person (you who come to me…), thus removing the lyrics from their position as a direct quote from the Book of John and rendering them a poor paraphrase. Similar alterations were done to other songs like The Cry of the Poor and For The Fruits of This (HIS) Creation. Look at any “traditional” hymn in their books and you’ll almost always see the abbreviation “alt.” after the composer’s name.

I am particularly troubled by the alteration in “Joy to the World”. “Let men their songs employ” usually gets changed to “Let all their songs employ”. I sing the original lyrics even though I am a woman.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

I am particularly troubled by the alteration in “Joy to the World”. “Let men their songs employ” usually gets changed to “Let all their songs employ”. I sing the original lyrics even though I am a woman.

Perhaps I’m just an arrogant male chauvinist, but I’ve always felt that such use of inclusive language was an insult to the intelligence of women.

 

[lak611]

Perhaps I’m just an arrogant male chauvinist, but I’ve always felt that such use of inclusive language was an insult to the intelligence of women.

I have no use for inclusive language, especially in the lectionary and the Bible. It is insulting to my intelligence, be it in song lyrics or scripture.

 

[agapewolf]

I just dislike Haugen/Haas because their music sounds like the folk music of the 1960’s. I do not mind some 1960’s folk music. I have actually seen Bob Dylan in concert; but Dylan’s music is not appropriate for Mass. For Mass,I prefer classic hymns over hippy music that is not relevant to my generation. The classic hymns are timeless. They were written before any of the members of the Church today were born. I want music that is timeless for the Mass, not something that appeals only to people of the baby boom generation.

You have every right to have a specific preference toward style and genre.

But I take offense to the fact that you think only music written from the classical era are good enough to be at Mass. This means that God has given no one in 2007 the ability, skill or talent to write for Mass? This is completely ridiculous.

I have a skill and talent to write music, and feel called to do so, and some of it is used at Mass…only to glorify Him. I’m not Beethoven, but again, that was a particular time period reflecting the culture of music in that time.

We are now in a different time period. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be used. Of course it should. Our tradition is important. BUt just because someone lives in the 2000s does not mean they are incapable of writing music for mass.

 

[pprimeau1976]

I would love it if a parish invested in 4 part hymnals for use in the pews. Everyone would be able to sing if the harmony parts were available. Traditional hymns, both Catholic and Protestant, are my favourites. Haugen/Haas’ “music/lyrics” are awful.

Are they that awful? Or are the arrangements horrendous? Did you ever hear Haugen’s Mass of Creation with a Pipe Organ and Brass instruments? It is not awful, that is, if you can get the priest to not sing the Eucharistic Prayer!

 

[pprimeau1976]

I am the pianist/organist for our little cathedral. I try to choose music that is familiar to the congregation. I also use the responsorial psalms that are in the missalette so that folks can sing along.
That being said, what kind of music would you like at Mass if there is no real choir?

From a cantor to an organist, play something simple and beautiful. Don’t try to do things so grandiose that they end up sounding bad. I would stay away from piano songs that try to be showy, but I think the piano is just as good as an organ for some pieces - i.e. Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring. Even on some of the pieces that are contemporary, the tunes can sound just as good if they are played on the organ, that is…if you can find the right arrangement, or compose it yourself.

Have you ever heard “The God of All Grace” by Ricky Manalo? That piece is simple, but if you can get the talent (a Brass Ensemble), it is amazing.

 

[bkovacs]

Gregorian Chant!.

 

[Sarabande]

But I take offense to the fact that you think only music written from the classical era are good enough to be at Mass. This means that God has given no one in 2007 the ability, skill or talent to write for Mass? This is completely ridiculous.

I have a skill and talent to write music, and feel called to do so, and some of it is used at Mass…only to glorify Him. I’m not Beethoven, but again, that was a particular time period reflecting the culture of music in that time.

We are now in a different time period. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be used. Of course it should. Our tradition is important. BUt just because someone lives in the 2000s does not mean they are incapable of writing music for mass.

I absolutely agree. But I don’t believe Lak611 was saying that he wanted only music from previous musical periods. He was saying that the music of Haugen/Haas was not timeless. I do not know your ability as a composer or a musician having never heard any or your compositions and having never heard your playing ability, so I cannot and should not give an analysis of the music you write or perform. You are fortunate that you have a church to have your music performed, and I hope that you will be able to have it distributed.

I believe (I know) there are composers in the modern day who have equal ability in composing music as the composers from previous centuries. I personally know composers, one of which is well-respected by the musicians and intellectuals of the music world, and has had many of his sacred and secular compositions published, performed and recorded in both secular and sacred realms. He is also my husband’s composition teacher and used to teach composition as faculty in the universities of my area. He is also an extremely devout Catholic and intellectual and believe in living up to the high standards of church music. So there are definitely people of this era who are capable of living up to the standards of sacred composition writing of our past. Some are currently doing it now, such as composers I know and perhaps you, but unfortunately, it seems that these composers are not being added to the mainstream hymnals. We are only getting people like Haugen/Haas whose abilitites don’t live up to the high standards of the Church. They are trying to write in the style of Western Art music, but have failed miserably. You can’t even compare their abilities or music to someone like Bach or Palestrina, (well Bach is incomparable) because technically and theory-wise it’s like trying to compare delicious, ripe apples to soft and/or rotten apples. But you can compare the abilities of someone like the composer I know and the abilities of any other great composer from a previous century. At that point they become subjective comparisons rather than analysis of ability, because both are equal in ability. Anyway, I think that is what some people don’t like about the music of these two gentlemen.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

ISo there are definitely people of this era who are capable of living up to the standards of sacred composition writing of our past. Some are currently doing it now, such as composers I know and perhaps you, but unfortunately, it seems that these composers are not being added to the mainstream hymnals. We are only getting people like Haugen/Haas whose abilitites don’t live up to the high standards of the Church.

I’m a “baby boomer” (that term really makes me retch, by the way), and I guess I’m supposed to like the so-called “folk music” to be found in our hymnals, but I don’t. Calling those sappy little ditties “folk music” is a huge insult not only to Bob Dylan, but to Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie, Joan Baez, Phil Ochs, PP&M, Buffy Sainte-Marie, and many others I could name.

I like singing from the classical repertoire (we do a lot of that in my choir); I also like Gregorian Chant, and good modern compositions, but please spare me the so-called “folk music”. If it sounds best when strummed on a guitar, I probably won’t want to sing it in a choir, accompanied by a pipe organ.

Mudgie-in-training and freelance sparkle/coffee grinds sprinkler

 

[Michael_Welter]

You have every right to have a specific preference toward style and genre.

But I take offense to the fact that you think only music written from the classical era are good enough to be at Mass. This means that God has given no one in 2007 the ability, skill or talent to write for Mass? This is completely ridiculous.

Don’t worry. Contemporary music well never be banned from Mass, as that would violate God’s command to “Sing a new song unto the Lord.”