What type of music would you like at Mass?

[agapewolf]

People are still missing the point. Even though people may write today, does not mean they have to write music like it is from the classical era. That is not the only style of music that is appropriate for mass. There are many styles.

You may not prefer folk. High brow musicians sometimes seem to be so pretentious and snobby that they wouldn’t dare lower themselves to a simple 3 chord easy sung melody. But that doesn’t mean that some of it isn’t appropriate for Mass. Its this stuff that is a lot easier to be sung by the people. It can also have the potential of touching hearts and transcending to the divine. My Church does it every Sunday.

 

[Sarabande]

People are still missing the point. Even though people may write today, does not mean they have to write music like it is from the classical era. That is not the only style of music that is appropriate for mass. There are many styles.

The classical era was during the 18th century. None of the good composers of today are trying to write music from that era. They are composing to the standards of western art music in their own century’s style. Yes, when they are trained, they do learn how to compose within the different periods of music, but once they learn the groundwork, they must create music that is their own, but still up to the standards and rules of western music which even most non-classical music writers write in – unless they are writing music within scales of different cultures – like the Saptak scale of the Indian culture.

You may not prefer folk. High brow musicians sometimes seem to be so pretentious and snobby that they wouldn’t dare lower themselves to a simple 3 chord easy sung melody.

That type of statement is a form of reverse snobbery. It’s as bad and as holier-than-thou as someone from the other end saying, "Those other ‘musicians’ wouldn’t dare attempt to perform high art music. It’s too above them.” Yes, there have been musicians that have said things like that – but on both sides, not just on the high art music side. I enjoy and am spiritually uplifted by sacred hymns or compositions from any century with simplistic chord progressions, etc. They don’t have to be complex. As long as the composition is not kitch and that the melody is lovely and easy to sing. I have nothing against them at all, and I am fairly sure that most of my “high-brow” colleagues would feel the same.

 

[Sarabande]

But that doesn’t mean that some of it isn’t appropriate for Mass. Its this stuff that is a lot easier to be sung by the people. It can also have the potential of touching hearts and transcending to the divine. My Church does it every Sunday.

A lot of times I’ve found the “snob” and “pretentious” statements come out of just a lack of knowledge of how a classical musician, especially one who is involved in sacred music, thinks and is trained. Anyone who knows me will tell you I am so far from being pretentious and snobby. I’m just a person seeking ultimate spiritual Truth and Beauty. It has nothing to do with not wanting to “lower” ourselves to performing the other kinds of music you are talking about it. I can’t speak for all of the us so-called “high-brow” musicians, but for myself and the colleagues I work with it’s about giving our best. I have been able to perform folk music. Heck, I enjoy listening to the real folk music growing up with my parents’ records, alongside classical and rock and pop. When my best was performing that kind of music, I was fine with it even though I wanted more, because that was all that I could offer to God. But as I grew, trained and my tastes evolved, I realized that my best was more. If I can’t give my best to God, then I feel that I am insulting Him with the gift He has given me. And as I said, it is a prayer for me, like it is probably a prayer for you. So, truly if I am not giving my all or not hearing what I believe to be the utmost, I feel that I’m not giving God my ultimate prayer. I sometimes do have to perform sacred music that I do not deem as an ultimate prayer because I am a hired musician and not a volunteer. In that case, I do what my voice teacher has always told me when I perform any kind of music that I don’t care for – classical or not. I find something in the music that is good and try to focus on the words. That just happened to me last week when I had to sing a schmaltzy psalm that sounded like it came out of a musical. I paid attention to the text, because the text was beautiful and liturgically correct and offered it up to God. I was told afterwards that even though the piece of music was full of schmaltz, I made it sound like it sound beautiful.

The other thing, too, is that other genres of music are not new to just the 20th and 21st century. We have always had different genres of secular music throughout the centuries. I have a few incredible recordings of folk music from earlier centuries. They didn’t have rock & roll and rap, but they did have other forms. The difference is that although people enjoyed this music, they still didn’t find that genre of music appropriate for mass.

If a parish is able to give more than what is offered in the current mainstream hymnals, then they should take advantage of that and try to raise the congregation to a higher level of musical prayer. If not, then they can do their best with what they have. There is nothing wrong with that. If their best is other forms of liturgical music, that is fine as well. But there had been a trend since the 80s and 90s, when you and I grew up, (I don’t know the 70s) where all the music was everything post Vatican II. It was like this at least in our diocese. My husband, who grew up in many different dioceses around the country due to his parents moving a lot, will also attest to that. And if we weren’t doing that music, we had bad representations of the older music to make it a horriable musical/spiritual experience for those listening. So, I can totally understand when I hear someone say they don’t like the “older” music, especially when they’ve been subjected to that kind of lack of musicianship. i.e. – little old ladies, who mean well, but can’t play the organ and loves to use the heavy vibrato. Ha! Ha! It’s a relief to see that there are now parishes trying to bring back our long heritage of sacred music and actually trying to find well-trained musicians to do this. Otherwise, bad musicians in any genre of music will make everything sound horrid.

I believe you are fully sincere, as I am, in your quest for seeking spiritual fulfillment through music - and I truly respect you for that.

 

[agapewolf]

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That type of statement is a form of reverse snobbery. It’s as bad and as holier-than-thou as someone from the other end saying, "Those other ‘musicians’ wouldn’t dare attempt to perform high art music. It’s too above them.” Yes, there have been musicians that have said things like that – but on both sides, not just on the high art music side. .

You did it yourself before when you said, and I quote “that music makes me vomit.”

 

[MusicMan]

As I have said many times, church musicians are there to facilitate the musical worship of the congregation. It’s not about what I like or what you like, it’s what’s about is best to meet that goal. Within that context, obviously we must select music that is in line with Catholic teaching and appropriate for the Mass in question.

At the church I play at, we have three groups. When I first started my traditional-eqsue choir, each group had a Mass that was “theirs.” If people felt a certain way about a certain style of music, they simply attended the Mass that had music that matched their tastes.

Other (often bigger) churches put their musicians schedule in the bulletin. That way, the people know which group is leading the music for each Mass and can plan accordingly. If you like contemporary music, and that choir is on for the 11:15 Mass, then go to that one. Don’t go to the 9:30 with the traditional choir and then complain because you didn’t like the music.

If the schola leading chant is on for the 5:00 pm anticipated Mass and that’s your “thing,” go to that Mass that weekend. Don’t go to the 11:15 and throw a fit because you don’t like the “drivel” of Haugen, Haas, and Schutte.

There’s wisdom in rotating the groups. There’s wisdom in leaving them alone. People will complain regardless. However, unless your parish has only one style of music at all the Masses, you have options. Rather than force your tastes on the rest of us, go to the Mass with the music that matches your preferences. If you don’t have a group that matches your preferences, talk to your pastor and start one.

 

[Sarabande]

You did it yourself before when you said, and I quote “that music makes me vomit.”

Yes. Perhaps my “vomit” comment from a couple of months ago was strong and if you are still offended by it, my apologies. I remember that you have equally strong reactions to classical music as you had mentioned in that same thread, although not in those words. That was just my gut reaction to the music compositions and the technical and theoretical ability of the composers – not the musicians who perform them or the people who enjoy that music. (I have to perform that music too, sometimes.) I never said, though, that I didn’t enjoy sacred music from the 20th or 21st centuries – just badly composed music that make me “want to vomit”. And this is because of what I explained in my posts on this forum – I am trying to achieve the ultimate form of prayer and spirituality to God through music. I think we are both trying to achieve the same height of spiritual enlightenment through music. It has nothing to do with snobbery. I think we are both misunderstanding each other. Besides, we should be discussing things according to what is being said on this thread, not something that was mentioned a couple of months ago. Otherwise, all of us will be bringing up and finding something that someone else said in another past thread.

 

[lak611]

I absolutely agree. But I don’t believe Lak611 was saying that he wanted only music from previous musical periods. He was saying that the music of Haugen/Haas was not timeless. I do not know your ability as a composer or a musician having never heard any or your compositions and having never heard your playing ability, so I cannot and should not give an analysis of the music you write or perform. You are fortunate that you have a church to have your music performed, and I hope that you will be able to have it distributed.

I believe (I know) there are composers in the modern day who have equal ability in composing music as the composers from previous centuries. I personally know composers, one of which is well-respected by the musicians and intellectuals of the music world, and has had many of his sacred and secular compositions published, performed and recorded in both secular and sacred realms. He is also my husband’s composition teacher and used to teach composition as faculty in the universities of my area. He is also an extremely devout Catholic and intellectual and believe in living up to the high standards of church music. So there are definitely people of this era who are capable of living up to the standards of sacred composition writing of our past. Some are currently doing it now, such as composers I know and perhaps you, but unfortunately, it seems that these composers are not being added to the mainstream hymnals. We are only getting people like Haugen/Haas whose abilitites don’t live up to the high standards of the Church. They are trying to write in the style of Western Art music, but have failed miserably. You can’t even compare their abilities or music to someone like Bach or Palestrina, (well Bach is incomparable) because technically and theory-wise it’s like trying to compare delicious, ripe apples to soft and/or rotten apples. But you can compare the abilities of someone like the composer I know and the abilities of any other great composer from a previous century. At that point they become subjective comparisons rather than analysis of ability, because both are equal in ability. Anyway, I think that is what some people don’t like about the music of these two gentlemen.

I agree. That is what I am trying to say. (By the way, I am a “she”.

I’m a “baby boomer” (that term really makes me retch, by the way), and I guess I’m supposed to like the so-called “folk music” to be found in our hymnals, but I don’t. Calling those sappy little ditties “folk music” is a huge insult not only to Bob Dylan, but to Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie, Joan Baez, Phil Ochs, PP&M, Buffy Sainte-Marie, and many others I could name.

I like singing from the classical repertoire (we do a lot of that in my choir); I also like Gregorian Chant, and good modern compositions, but please spare me the so-called “folk music”. If it sounds best when strummed on a guitar, I probably won’t want to sing it in a choir, accompanied by a pipe organ.

Mudgie-in-training and freelance sparkle/coffee grinds sprinkler

I agree. I do like the “real” folk music you mentioned. But I would not want Dylan, Seeger, et al, for Mass. The Haugen/Haas stuff is terrible compared to Dylan, Seeger, et al.

 

[Sarabande]

I agree. That is what I am trying to say. (By the way, I am a “she”.

Ooops!!! Sorry!!!

 

[VociMike]

I agree. I do like the “real” folk music you mentioned. But I would not want Dylan, Seeger, et al, for Mass. The Haugen/Haas stuff is terrible compared to Dylan, Seeger, et al.

That’s the problem when the Church sets out to imitate “the world”. Naturally, it doesn’t do “the world” as well as the world does “the world”, and it just ends up looking like a second-rate wannabe when it tries. And that’s not the image that Christ’s Church should project.

 

[Sarabande]

That’s the problem when the Church sets out to imitate “the world”. Naturally, it doesn’t do “the world” as well as the world does “the world”, and it just ends up looking like a second-rate wannabe when it tries. And that’s not the image that Christ’s Church should project.

Exactly. You said it much better in fewer words than in my verbosity. It’s that kind of what you called second-rate wannabe music which give me a very visceral reaction of wanting to vomit when I hear second-rate imitations of a secular style or of western art classical music. It has nothing to do with snobbery. I just want to hear and perform the best for my ultimate prayer to God.

 

[lak611]

Exactly. You said it much better in fewer words than in my verbosity. It’s that kind of what you called second-rate wannabe music which give me a very visceral reaction of wanting to vomit when I hear second-rate imitations of a secular style or of western art classical music. It has nothing to do with snobbery. I just want to hear and perform the best for my ultimate prayer to God.

These are my thoughts as well.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

lak611 - if you are out there -
or anyone else in the cantor/choir/director role

You mentioned Haugen/Hass music/lyrics are awful?

We’ve been singing these for years out of the Gather Hymnal (by Oregon Catholic Press - I think).

Nope- blame Gather on GIA.

 

[SeekerJen]

I’m the cantor for 8:30 Mass tomorrow morning. Processional hymn: “Crown Him With Many Crowns”. Recessional hymn: “Sing Out, Earth and Skies” (Haugen). Let’s see which one gets the congregation to sing more enthusiastically. My bet would be on the former, especially considering the usual crowd at that Mass. It’s a good, strong hymn that people know. I don’t know why we can’t sing those more often.

As for Gather, yup, I have the Gather Comprehensive in front of me, and it’s definitely from GIA. I’m not impressed with it. We were using RitualSong (also from GIA) which had its own issues, but at least it had a large Psalm section. The one in this hymnal is so limited that we have to resort to the old hymnals for most of our Psalms. Ridiculous.

 

[Mary3]

I just dislike Haugen/Haas because their music sounds like the folk music of the 1960’s.

One of my friends describes their music as “Gilligan’s Island Mass” music. That pretty much sums up my feelings, too.

 

[SeekerJen]

One of my friends describes their music as “Gilligan’s Island Mass” music. That pretty much sums up my feelings, too.

Ah, the true “Gilligan’s Island Mass” hymn is “Two Fishermen” by Suzanne Toolan, SM.

 

[lak611]

I’m the cantor for 8:30 Mass tomorrow morning. Processional hymn: “Crown Him With Many Crowns”. Recessional hymn: “Sing Out, Earth and Skies” (Haugen). Let’s see which one gets the congregation to sing more enthusiastically. My bet would be on the former, especially considering the usual crowd at that Mass. It’s a good, strong hymn that people know. I don’t know why we can’t sing those more often.

As for Gather, yup, I have the Gather Comprehensive in front of me, and it’s definitely from GIA. I’m not impressed with it. We were using RitualSong (also from GIA) which had its own issues, but at least it had a large Psalm section. The one in this hymnal is so limited that we have to resort to the old hymnals for most of our Psalms. Ridiculous.

I went to Mass today. We had “Hail the Day That Sees Him Rise” and “Sing of Mary”. The congregation actually sang!

 

[lak611]

Ah, the true “Gilligan’s Island Mass” hymn is “Two Fishermen” by Suzanne Toolan, SM.

Thankfully, I have never been subjected to that in my parish!

 

[SeekerJen]

Thankfully, I have never been subjected to that in my parish!

You are truly blessed. It’s not the worst one out there, but it’s nowhere near good.

 

[Sarabande]

One of my friends describes their music as “Gilligan’s Island Mass” music. That pretty much sums up my feelings, too.

Funny that you mentioned that. Back in college, my husband, who has this knack of discovering the oddest things in music so that you can’t ever listen to it or perform it the same way again, (he has a quirky sense of humour) realized that the refrain “Here I Am, Lord” used almost the exact same melody line as the song for “The Brady Bunch.” Just take the hymn faster, with a slightly different rhythm during “I have heard you calling in the night” and it sounds exactly like Brady Bunch with different words. I think how it happened was that we were trying to remember the words to the hymn and was singing it quickly and suddenly bursted out with “All of them had hair of gold, like their mother. The youngest one in curls” without even thinking about it.

It started like this:
Here I am, Lord. Is it I Lord.
I have heard you calling in the night…
All of them had hair of gold, like their mother.
The youngest one in curls…

I have a hard time singing that hymn now without busting a gut. I’ve never liked it, but even my best friend, who loves it, agrees that she can never look at the hymn the same way again. Thankfully, we don’t do it where I cantor and it has lost popularity for funerals. So it has been a couple of years since we’ve had to sing it.

He did the same thing with Brittany Spears’ “Oops! I did it again”. We were in the record store where they were playing this song and he realized that whoever wrote the song for her used the old standard, chord progression of La Folia. This was used way back in the 17th century and maybe earlier. We went home to check out if he was right, playing the chord progression on the piano and singing the words to her refrain. Then fooled around with it to sound like a 17th century song. We sang it in complete Baroque style with little fioriture and trills, etc. It was almost like PDQ Bach. I’m almost wondering if the songwriter knew about the progression and did it tongue in cheek or if he/she just got lucky. I hope it was the former, because that would make it even funnier, for me at least. Ok… I’ve really showed my major dorkiness.

 

[Sarabande]

I went to Mass today. We had “Hail the Day That Sees Him Rise” and “Sing of Mary”. The congregation actually sang!

I find that our congregation loves to sing “Hail the Day That Sees Him Rise” as well. It must be the “Alleluia” part. Almost every hymn that has a big “Alleluia” seems to always be sung well. Last week, they sang their hearts out with the Sine Nomine melody and this was at a college bachalaureate mass. They also did newer stuff to reflect their campus ministry, but also allowed the choir to sing a Tallis piece, If Ye Love Me and the Mozart Ave Verum Corpus as a post-communion piece. But I was surprised at how they bellowed the Sine Nomine melody. The organist asked me if they sang down there because he was concerned that they wouldn’t be as familiar with the traditional hymns since they were college-age. Well, they bellowed it out. The other music was sung too, but they were either really excited at the end of the mass, or they really liked the hymn.