What vows do western rite priests take? (Fr. Cutie issue)

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Does anyone know what sort of “vows” are taken for American priests? I ask because on another forum the issue of Father Cutie (who was caught in scandal with a woman and left the Catholic priesthood for Anglican orders) came up and we were wondering what vows he had taken. Apparently he was not laicized.
 
If a priest is secular/diocesan, then they do not take any vows. Only the Religious (priests/brothers/nuns) make vows. Diocesan priests make promises of celibacy and obedience to Bishop.
 
MarcoPolo said:
Does anyone know what sort of “vows” are taken for American priests? I ask because on another forum the issue of Father Cutie (who was caught in scandal with a woman and left the Catholic priesthood for Anglican orders) came up and we were wondering what vows he had taken. Apparently he was not laicized.
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There is no vow for secular priest, only promise for celibacy and obedience to his bishop, both required by law.

Attempting marriage he is excommunicated reserved to the Apostolic See in most special way, but the Church like good mother expects him back (supposed he leaves his civil wife and accepts obedience)

After five years of the attempted marriage and after he is at least 40 years old he theoretically he can ask for dispensation of the clerical duties, but as episcopal minister this wont be granted. This means also reduction to laical status.
 
ConstantineTG said:
If a priest is secular/diocesan, then they do not take any vows. Only the Religious (priests/brothers/nuns) make vows. Diocesan priests make promises of celibacy and obedience to Bishop.
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He promises the bishop he will be celibate?
 
The Church won’t accept him back as a priest if he has to leave a wife and child to do so. They have natural rights.

Fr. Benedict Groeschel has mentioned this–there were lots of priests caught up in the crazy spirit of the times, who left and got married and some had children; they wanted to leave their families and come back to be a Catholic priest. The Church won’t destroy a family for this; the end does not justify the means.

I’d rather have a priestess parish than break up a family to get a wandering priest back!
 
kentuckyliz said:
The Church won’t accept him back as a priest if he has to leave a wife and child to do so. They have natural rights.

Fr. Benedict Groeschel has mentioned this–there were lots of priests caught up in the crazy spirit of the times, who left and got married and some had children; they wanted to leave their families and come back to be a Catholic priest. The Church won’t destroy a family for this; the end does not justify the means.

I’d rather have a priestess parish than break up a family to get a wandering priest back!
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I can understand the reason for not accepting him back as a married priest. For that will encourage that behavior. Certainly he will be allowed back as a laicized priest, if he’s humble enough to accept that.
 
I know this question or concern is a bit off topic but why do so many people refer to him as Fr. Alberto Cutie?

Since he basically left the Catholic Church shouldn’t people just call him or refer to him as
Alberto Cutie or Mr. Cutie? 🤷

I apologize for my ignorance.
 
goforgoal said:
I know this question or concern is a bit off topic but why do so many people refer to him as Fr. Alberto Cutie?

Since he basically left the Catholic Church shouldn’t people just call him or refer to him as
Alberto Cutie or Mr. Cutie? 🤷

I apologize for my ignorance.
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The reason why he is still referred to as Father is because he has a right to the title until one of two things happen:

a. He is dismissed from the clerical state

or

b. He requests a dispensation.

Father Cutie is still a priest, albeit an excommunicated one.

It is up to the diocesan bishop to request a dismissal. Bishops have different approaches to this. Some like to wait and see if the person has a change of heart and some proceed very quickly. The law says that when the crime involves a minor, there is no waiting. The dismissal process should begin immediately. That is not the case here.

The theological fact is that even when a pirest is dismissed or is dispensed, the ontological change is not reversed. He reamins a priest forever.

Laicization is a rather ambiguous term more often used in English than in any other language. The truth is that once a man is ordained a deacon, he is no longer a layman and can never be a layman again. He can live as a layman, either voluntarilly, if he requests as dispensation or involuntarilly if he is dismissed.

But the truth of the matter is that he continues to celebrate the sacraments validly, if he chooses to do so. However, it would be illicit for him to do so, except in a life and death situation. Any priest, can validly grant absolution to a person in danger of death, even if he has been excommunicated. In those cases, the Church supplies faculties.

In Fr. Cutie’s case, his proper title remains, Father.

That being said, we do call many priests Father, even though they are not in communion with us. All Eastern Orthodox priests, not Orthodox/Oriental Catholics, but the rest of the Orthodox, are called Father. We do call their leaders by such titles as: Your Holiness, Your Beatitude and there are a few other such titles of resepct. Even though they are not in communion with us, they retain apostolic succession. Unless the ordination is invalid, there is Apostolic Succession and they are real priests.

We must alwasy be careful not to allow our personal feelings about someone or an event color the beliefs of the Church.

I hope that helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
MarcoPolo said:
You don’t happen to know of what text in the rite of ordination that occurs do you?
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Look in the text for the Ordination of a Deacon. It is during ordination to the deaconate that these promises are made.
 
I think the story of Fr. Cutie is a sad one. He has tragically fallen away and is reaping gratification and praise from the secular culture. He has sinned by leaving his priestly duties, engaging in relations with a woman and marrying her in the Episcopal rite. He is profiting from his book and will soon profit from his television program.

God’s justice works slowly and over time I wonder how Fr. Cutie’s life will develop. He has created a new life based on grave sin and left the Church rather than confessing his sins and repenting for them. In time he may well suffer the effects of such a loss of grace. By all outward appearances and by the judgment of our culture he should be happy all his life. But my God’s way, had he chosen that way he may have found in the long run that he would have been happier.

Truly, all of us are subject to great temptation because of our culture is so deluded. Anyone of us can easily fall into grave mortal sin. The values of secular culture appear to be truth because it seems from all outward appearances to have little consequence. It is easy to forget about the question of salvation after death while living in this world and while one has fallen away from grace. Our best hope is to always turn to the Lord. We must have an active prayer life and humbly confess our sins on a regular basis. Though many of us struggle with sin, we may fail often and the lose the battle to follow God’s way we must humbly accept responsibility for our sins, ask the Lord for forgiveness through the sacrament of Confession and do the penance asked of us by the priest. This is the only way we can win the struggle against evil. I have this hope for myself and others too. I hope and pray that one day Fr. Cutie can win and overcome his struggles in life too.
 
MarcoPolo said:
You don’t happen to know of what text in the rite of ordination that occurs do you?
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If you are a secular man, at the rite of ordination to the diaconate you promise never to marry. If you are married, you promise never to marry again. The bishop receives this promise in the name of the Church.

In the same ritual, the bishop asks the candidate if he promises obedience to him and to his successors…

If the man is a religious, there is no promise of celibacy and no promise of obedience. Religious make a vow of chastity, which includes celibacy and fraternal life. We also make a vow of obedience to our founders and superiors. The bishop is not the superior over the relgious community, unless the community is of diocesan right.

In any case, the religious makes perpetual vows long before being ordained a deacon. The part about obedience and celibacy are omitted from the ritual.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
georgewithfaith said:
I think the story of Fr. Cutie is a sad one. He has tragically fallen away and is reaping gratification and praise from the secular culture. He has sinned by leaving his priestly duties, engaging in relations with a woman and marrying her in the Episcopal rite. He is profiting from his book and will soon profit from his television program.

God’s justice works slowly and over time I wonder how Fr. Cutie’s life will develop. He has created a new life based on grave sin and left the Church rather than confessing his sins and repenting for them. In time he may well suffer the effects of such a loss of grace. By all outward appearances and by the judgment of our culture he should be happy all his life. But my God’s way, had he chosen that way he may have found in the long run that he would have been happier.

Truly, all of us are subject to great temptation because of our culture is so deluded. Anyone of us can easily fall into grave mortal sin. The values of secular culture appear to be truth because it seems from all outward appearances to have little consequence. It is easy to forget about the question of salvation after death while living in this world and while one has fallen away from grace. Our best hope is to always turn to the Lord. We must have an active prayer life and humbly confess our sins on a regular basis. Though many of us struggle with sin, we may fail often and the lose the battle to follow God’s way we must humbly accept responsibility for our sins, ask the Lord for forgiveness through the sacrament of Confession and do the penance asked of us by the priest. This is the only way we can win the struggle against evil. I have this hope for myself and others too. I hope and pray that one day Fr. Cutie can win and overcome his struggles in life too.
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Fr. Cutie’s struggles are his own to sort out between him and God. They are not for us to speculate. I’m sure that the whole process must have been very painful and I would not want to be in his shoes. It must tear one apart to be between two loves and conflicting lifestyles.

Be that as it may, the best we can do for him and others who struggle is to pray for them that God will grant them guidance and peace. What else can we do?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
In the same ritual, the bishop asks the candidate if he promises obedience to him and to his successors…
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What if the priest transfers to another diocese, does he make the same promise again to another Bishop or is this understood in the context of any Bishop he may fall under who may not be a successor of the Bishop he makes a promise to?
 
ConstantineTG said:
What if the priest transfers to another diocese, does he make the same promise again to another Bishop or is this understood in the context of any Bishop he may fall under who may not be a successor of the Bishop he makes a promise to?
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Let’s see how I can explain this so that it will fit into this window.

OK, diocesan priests are not like religious. They transfer within the diocese, whereas religious transfer wherever their community goes.

However, a diocesan priest can request to incardinate into another diocese. It’s not quite the same as a transfer. In a transfer, you can go badk to your former assignment. You just transfer back. When you incardinate, you no longer belong to the diocese for which you were ordained. You cannot go back. Part of the process of incardination is the pledge of obedience to your new bishop and his successors.

There are diocesan priests who are on loan outside of their diocese. For example, the chaplains in the military do not belong to the Military Archdiocese. They belong to their respective dioceses or religious communities. They owe obedience to either their bishop or their religious superior. However, since they are employed by the Archbishop of the Military Ordinareate, they obey him as long as they work for him. Their bisohp reserves the right to call them home at any time.

There are also priests that are on loan from one diocese to another. They remain part of their original diocese and their promise of obedience is to their bishop. Since they are on loan to another diocese, that bishop is their employer and as long as they work for him, they obey him. Again, they can go back to their diocese at any time or their bishop can recall them.

This is also true of priests who work for the Vatican or for some national or international organization. They obey the person at the top, but only as long as they work for him or her. Their bishop always takes precedence. If they are religious, then their superior has precedence. Most of the priests who work at the Vatican are Diocesan priests. They are bound to their bishops. Their bishops can pull them home. The chances of that happening are slim. They cannot belong to the Vatican, because the Vatican is not a diocese. It’s a country. They would have to be incardinated in the Diocese of Rome, if they wanted to leave their diocese. Most do not do that. They’re simply assigned to the Vatican as long as the Vatican needs them. When they are no longer needed, they return to their bishop.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Aramis said:
Look in the text for the Ordination of a Deacon. It is during ordination to the deaconate that these promises are made.
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Thx. Looks like this may be the text:*Therefore, I ask you:
In the presence of God and the Church, are you resolved, as a sign of your interior
dedication to Christ, to remain celibate for the sake of the kingdom and in lifelong
service to God and mankind?

The candidate answers:

I am.

If it wishes, the conference of bishops may determine some external sign to express the intention of the
candidate.
The bishop adds:

May the Lord help you to persevere in this commitment.

The candidate answers:

Amen.
*So all priests are ordained as deacons first, correct?
 
ConstantineTG said:
Although I think one may be ordained as priest or bishop directly, although this may not happen under normal circumstances.
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No, this can not happen. One is always ordained to the diaconate first, then priesthood, then episcopacy.

There is no skipping of orders.
 
ByzCath said:
No, this can not happen. One is always ordained to the diaconate first, then priesthood, then episcopacy.

There is no skipping of orders.
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Brother is correct. Each order has its own rights and duties.

The priest can baptize, because he’s a deacon. The bishop can celebrate mass, because he’s a priest and so forth. The bishop has been ordained to all three orders. Therefore, only he posesses the fulness of the priesthood, because only he posesses the fulness of Holy Orders.

The process can be sped up. I can’t remember which pope it was, but there was a monk elected pope. He was not a cleric. He was ordained deacon, a few days later a priest, and a few days later a bishop. Then he crowned pope. I believe he resigned shortly thereafter too. I wish I could recall who that was. He’s one of those popes that’s not very famous. But I believe that he’s a canonized saint. Anyone remember? :confused:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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