What was first?

[PJM]

=Gabriel of 12;7529663]Hello PJM Luke 24 reveals the first Mass because it reveals the liturgy of the Word followed by the Liturgy of the Eucharist, Luke expresses how Jesus reveals the “All” in scripture from the law and prophets point to him, as the Catholic Mass continues in this liturgical biblical setting today unchanged followed by the breaking of bread in the Eucharist to wit the disciples “eyes were opened” in seeing Jesus true presence only in the breaking of bread as celebrated today in the Mass. I don’t believe protestants view Jesus true presence in the breaking of bread as Catholics do as having Jesus truly present in our midst. The breaking of bread from biblical teachings is never a symbolic moment.

The first Jewish converts to Christianity labeled Jesus teachings as “The Way” because Jesus teachings superceded the old covenant relationship to God which included a partial relationship from obedience to the rules, whereby “The Way” revealed a new relationship with God by truly being lived in Christ Jesus which did not oppose Judaism but went beyond Judaism. After Peter heard from heaven to allow the Gentiles in the Church, late in the first century this combination of Jewish/Gentile converts in “The Way” becomes known as Catholic.= universal Church.

I agree with you that the Trinity is revealed in scripture, but the “word Trinity” is not in scripture. The oral Traditional belief of the Trinity is handed down not written until the Catholic Church defends this Oral Tradition of the Trinity 300+ years later when heretics and heresies taught against the revelation of God revealed in the Trinity, thus the Catholic church took the oral Tradition of the Trinity and made it “doctrine” binding on all those who follow Jesus and the apostles successors. This “doctrine” development is never a change but a revelation to defend the oral Traditions against Her enemies who try to change what is already believed. Making the Trinity “doctrine” is never a change or new teaching but a defense “developed” to protect this sacred Oral Tradition from ever changing making it a doctrine.

I agree with you here, but for clarification the practice of our diverse Liturgies in the Catholic Rites may differ in practice and can change from language to culture, but All Catholics believe the doctrine of our liturgies the same which can never change, speaking of the sacramental ecomony held by all Catholic Rites.

This distinction if not clarified tends to be viewed by non catholics as a “change” when this is never the case from a doctrinal stand point.

Peace be with you

Thanks!
Pat

 

[Heliotropium]

What was first

By logic let’s start with the Old Testament. What was first? Moses or the Torah? Moses was a member of the infant Jewish Church so therefore the OT Church was before the Scriptures. Now did the prophets come first or the Scriptures they wrote? Likewise did Christ Church come first or the Scripture that give witness and written testimony that Christ started and founded a Church in Matthew 16? Please my Christian brother one does not need to have a lengthy argument about something that is common sense.

Matthew 16 gives witness that Christ founded His Church on Saint Peter and therefore there should be no debate that the NT Scriptures came after the Church was founded. To say otherwise would be like me reading the newspaper about an even that happened but then having me treat it like the event hasn’t happened yet…that wouldnt make sense. A witness can only be as such because the event had already taken place. How could someone be a witness to an even that hasn’t happened yet?

 

[Dokimas]

Hi!

What was first: The egg or the hen?
Ehm, no. - Just kidding.

What was first? The Church or the Bible?

In another thread we came on the topic what was first: The Bible or the Church.

Here the original Quotes:
// Actually, you’re thoughts here are pretty intersting. I’d like to talk about that a little bit more in depth, Publisher. //*

in Christ,

Without a doubt, the hen and her bo.

Depends what you mean by ‘church’.

Maybe it doesn’t if you believe the Bible was in the Mind of God before it was penned, then the Bible. Of course, the OT was pre-church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Without a doubt, the hen and her bo.

Depends what you mean by ‘church’.

Maybe it doesn’t if you believe the Bible was in the Mind of God before it was penned, then the Bible. Of course, the OT was pre-church.

I think this thread is specifically addressing the New Testament vs. the Christian Church.

We all believe that the Bible is God inspired, but if you want to use ‘was in the mind of God before it was penned’ we have to assume the Church was possibly in the mind of God before He established it as we all know the Church was established before the New Testament was written, according to the writings of the New Testament.

 

[benidict]

You really don’t think that God set up a church among His chosen people? That’s really a remarkable theory Ben. Let me ask you a question. You say that they, I’m assuming you mean Jews, are God’s chosen people. What exactly do you think they were chosen for Ben?

There were many faithful people in the old testament Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua etc. Are you saying that these had no church, religion?

Where in Romans and the gospels?

Seperate from what?

So, let me get this straight.
Gen.3
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

You’re saying that there was no enmity between the seed of Satan and God’s children up until “Mary said yes”? And that the Lord makes a covenant with Abram that He will make of him a great nation and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed Gen 12:1-3, but you don’t think that the Lord set up a religion, church, with these people? That the Lord had Moses build Him a sanctuary that God Himself dwelt in mind you, set up a priesthood taken from the Levites, set up a prophetic sacrificial system that pointed directly to Jesus, but this had nothing to do with a church? Well, I gotta ask you then, how do you define church?

interesting theory Richard. show me where the word Church is used in the Old Testament. also, I like the reading of Genesis 3:15 in the Douay Rheims. check it out. nope Abraham did not have a Church. there is no indication he even kept the sabbath, or the rest of the mosaic law, since God had not given it yet. Israel is never refered to as a Church in the O.T. if im wrong, show me where you find this word to describe them. thx also you can check out romans 11:11-32. pay special attention to verses 25 thru 27. Im sure you will gloss over these, since i believe the Adventist suffer from a similar blindness. but feel free to examine and give an answer, as always i welcome them. Peace

 

[Dokimas]

I think this thread is specifically addressing the New Testament vs. the Christian Church.

We all believe that the Bible is God inspired, but if you want to use ‘was in the mind of God before it was penned’ we have to assume the Church was possibly in the mind of God before He established it as we all know the Church was established before the New Testament was written, according to the writings of the New Testament.

Then it boils down to your definition of ‘church’.

If your def is the CC, then I’d say no, the letters which make up the Bible were first. If your def is believers from the apostles onward, I’d say the church. Of course, that’s just my opinion and only counts if it’s in agreement with God.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Matthew

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Isaiah

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

and the key mentioned in the preceding verse, were the ensigns of power and authority; so likewise was the key the mark of office, either sacred or civil. To comprehend how the key could be borne on the shoulder, it will be sufficient to observe, that the ancient keys were of considerable magnitude. And the Prophecy of Isaiah is completed in Matthew from the will of God to His Son and finally Peter. And the ministry of Jesus Christ His ministry through Peter after Christ, which proceeds through the rest of the Apostles and through time to this day with Benedict XVI.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Then it boils down to your definition of ‘church’.

If your def is the CC, then I’d say no, the letters which make up the Bible were first. If your def is believers from the apostles onward, I’d say the church. Of course, that’s just my opinion and only counts if it’s in agreement with God.

For the topic of this thread, it boils down to which came first. It appears, for the sake of argument, it boils down to whatever objection one can raise again to maintain a divide or refuse to find themself in agreement with what a Catholic may say.

There was ONE Church started by Christ. There was a Christian Church started by Christ. The first recognizable Church was the Catholic Church. All Christian Churches have roots to the Catholic Church, even those through schisms and separations. We are unified through Christ.

Christ chose and appointed the Apostles over His Church, SOME of which actually wrote scriptures, some appointed by Apostles wrote scriptures. Of course that comes from the opinion of a Catholic and I know there are those who will have to disagree somehow, but it’s really that simple of an answer; the Church came first and men of that Church produced scriptures, specifically the New Testament.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

also, I like the reading of Genesis 3:15 in the Douay Rheims. check it out. nope Abraham did not have a Church. there is no indication he even kept the sabbath, or the rest of the mosaic law, since God had not given it yet. Israel is never refered to as a Church in the O.T. if im wrong, show me where you find this word to describe them. thx also you can check out romans 11:11-32. pay special attention to verses 25 thru 27. Im sure you will gloss over these, since i believe the Adventist suffer from a similar blindness. but feel free to examine and give an answer, as always i welcome them. Peace

Genesis 2
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And **on the seventh day God ended his work **which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Ex.20
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The seventh day rest was given at creation, “the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God”

Gen.26
5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham kept the commandments of God, including the Sabbath commandment.

Jeremiah 6
2I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.

The daughter of Zion, God’s church, is likened unto “a comely and delicate woman” in
Jer.6:21.

2 Corinthians 11
1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

A chaste virgin in 2Cor.

Eph.5
22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Rev.19
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

A wife in Eph. 5 & Rev.19

This is the same woman mentioned in Gen3:15 and Rev.12:17

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 51
1Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
2Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.
3For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
4Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.
5My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
6Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
7Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
8For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.
9Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
10Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?
11Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.
12I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass;
13And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?
14The captive exile hasteneth that he may be loosed, and that he should not die in the pit, nor that his bread should fail.
15But I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of hosts is his name.
16And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

I ask you to read this passage from Isaiah. Is this not talking about God’s church?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Rich in Isaiah 50+51 I see the referrence to Jesus Christ but how do you see Church out of this?

Of course theres referrence to Egypt also as the conversation goes from the Lord to the prophet.

Might be I’m missing something also? I’ve heard this mentioned before though.

 

[PJM]

=Dokimas;7531255]Then it boils down to your definition of ‘church’.

If your def is the CC, then I’d say no, the letters which make up the Bible were first. If your def is believers from the apostles onward, I’d say the church. Of course, that’s just my opinion and only counts if it’s in agreement with God.

My dear friends in Christ;

I’m of the Opinion that the evidence of the “church” being first is in the Bible itself; beginning with Matt. 15:15-19.

The issue for me resolves aroud the Covenants God made “with His Chosen People” [The Hebrew nation.

While there is a series of such Covenants articulated in the OT [Araham. Moses, David, for example], there is only One in the NT. Mt. 26: 26-28; Mk. 14: 22-24; Lk. 22: 19-21, and 1st. Cor. 11:23-29.

Additionally God tells us the following:

Jer. 31:33 “"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

**Heb. 8: 6 **“But as it is, Christ * has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.”

**Heb. 8: 13 **“ In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”

The OT must be considered ONLY a A PART of the Bible; the “Words of God that he desires us to know, accept and live-by.” One cannot seperate the Term “Bible” without including the NT, in the defination.

While the OT letters existed before Christ Birth; they certainly are FROM GOD. Keep in mind that Jesus Himself is a PART of this same “God.” It is the NT that completes, fulfills and perfects the OT, making the NT not only “more revelant” to our times, but of Critial Importance; without which the OT would lose a great deal of it’s meaning and signifiance.

Note further that the ENTIRE NT was authored by men who are members of the CC founded by Christ. Therefore the CHURCH HAD to come first.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[benidict]

Genesis 2
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And **on the seventh day God ended his work **which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Ex.20
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The seventh day rest was given at creation, “the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God”

Gen.26
5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham kept the commandments of God, including the Sabbath commandment.

Jeremiah 6
2I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.

The daughter of Zion, God’s church, is likened unto “a comely and delicate woman” in
Jer.6:21.

2 Corinthians 11
1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

A chaste virgin in 2Cor.

Eph.5
22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Rev.19
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

A wife in Eph. 5 & Rev.19

This is the same woman mentioned in Gen3:15 and Rev.12:17

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 51
1Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
2Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.
3For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
4Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.
5My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
6Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
7Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
8For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.
9Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

if abraham kept any law, it was the Noadic law, which was given to Noah. there fore he did keep Gods commandments. but the sabbath commandment had Not been given yet. unless you can somehow pull this out of the Noadic covenant, it does not exist as something commanded, until the giving of the law to moses. sorrrry. nice try though. I see Adventist are very good at taking verses out of context to justify their teachings, but even a cursory reading of the O.T. will prove them wrong. which law did abraham keep Richard? the Noadic? or the the Mosaic? go ahead and read the whole story of abraham Richard. find where it is written that abraham was given the commandment, and kept the commandment to keep the sabbath day. the fact is you cannot. its not there. and as i suspected, you didnt even try to answer the passage in romans. apparently its not in your bible. hmmm. also the passage you give us, is a prophecy Richard. it refers to future events. it does not call Israel the Church at the time it was written. It may be prophecying a time in the future dealing with Israels restoration, It may be refering to when the Church would be formed. will let you know after further study of this passage. however, i dont see the word Church in there, nor does it refer Israel at that time, being the Church. tell ya what ill do Richard. I will look for as many refernces in the O.T. to Israel, and see how many times God refers to them as the Church. I will be happy to post them alllll here. how many times will i find the term Church used for Israel in the O.T. Richard. shall I even waste my time? Id rather be hunting…

 

[benidict]

This is the same woman mentioned in Gen3:15 and Rev.12:17

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I agree Richard. your right, it is the same woman. Gen 3:15 testifies about Mary, as does this passage. as far as those who Keep the Commandments of God, and Have the Testimony of Jesus Christ? that would be the Catholics Richard. we love the Lord our God with all our heart soul and mind, and love our neighbor as our self. read the letter of James Richard. by doing this, we fullfill the requirements of the law. because we are no longer under the Mosaic covenant. we are under Grace and the Law of Love. also, you could celebrate saturday if you wish, as your day of worship in the Catholic Church Richard. most of them have services which are held saturday evening. so what was E.G. whites problem? If anything the Catholic Church is more biblical, because services are held every day, just as they were by the apostles and the earliest of Christians. why does your church not follow their example? God hallowed the sabbath day and blessed it, but He never required man to keep it until the Mosaic law was handed down. find me one passage Richard. Just One, that states, that God gave the commandment to keep the sabbath before moses was given it. ill help ya out. you wont find it. it does not exist. we as Catholics worship a Living Risen Redeemer, not a Day. Peace

 

[Dokimas]

For the topic of this thread, it boils down to which came first. It appears, for the sake of argument, it boils down to whatever objection one can raise again to maintain a divide or refuse to find themself in agreement with what a Catholic may say.

There was ONE Church started by Christ. There was a Christian Church started by Christ. The first recognizable Church was the Catholic Church. All Christian Churches have roots to the Catholic Church, even those through schisms and separations. We are unified through Christ.

Christ chose and appointed the Apostles over His Church, SOME of which actually wrote scriptures, some appointed by Apostles wrote scriptures. Of course that comes from the opinion of a Catholic and I know there are those who will have to disagree somehow, but it’s really that simple of an answer; the Church came first and men of that Church produced scriptures, specifically the New Testament.

Actually, for the sake of the thread we are asked our opinions. To respond to someones opinion, one must understand word usage.

 

[Dokimas]

For the topic of this thread, it boils down to which came first. It appears, for the sake of argument, it boils down to whatever objection one can raise again to maintain a divide or refuse to find themself in agreement with what a Catholic may say.

There was ONE Church started by Christ. There was a Christian Church started by Christ. The first recognizable Church was the Catholic Church. All Christian Churches have roots to the Catholic Church, even those through schisms and separations. We are unified through Christ.

Christ chose and appointed the Apostles over His Church, SOME of which actually wrote scriptures, some appointed by Apostles wrote scriptures. Of course that comes from the opinion of a Catholic and I know there are those who will have to disagree somehow, but it’s really that simple of an answer; the Church came first and men of that Church produced scriptures, specifically the New Testament.

God started His church. He entrusted it to the apostles which included Paul. They started churches which were part of the one church, the Body of Christ. One of those churches became known as the CC. It dominated history for centuries.

 

[Dokimas]

My dear friends in Christ;

I’m of the Opinion that the evidence of the “church” being first is in the Bible itself; beginning with Matt. 15:15-19.

The issue for me resolves aroud the Covenants God made “with His Chosen People” [The Hebrew nation.

While there is a series of such Covenants articulated in the OT [Araham. Moses, David, for example], there is only One in the NT. Mt. 26: 26-28; Mk. 14: 22-24; Lk. 22: 19-21, and 1st. Cor. 11:23-29.

Additionally God tells us the following:

Jer. 31:33 “"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

**Heb. 8: 6 **“But as it is, Christ * has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.”

**Heb. 8: 13 **“ In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”

The OT must be considered ONLY a A PART of the Bible; the “Words of God that he desires us to know, accept and live-by.” One cannot seperate the Term “Bible” without including the NT, in the defination.

While the OT letters existed before Christ Birth; they certainly are FROM GOD. Keep in mind that Jesus Himself is a PART of this same “God.” It is the NT that completes, fulfills and perfects the OT, making the NT not only “more revelant” to our times, but of Critial Importance; without which the OT would lose a great deal of it’s meaning and signifiance.

Note further that the ENTIRE NT was authored by men who are members of the CC founded by Christ. Therefore the CHURCH HAD to come first.

God Bless,
Pat

Why was the old covenant made ‘obsolete’? Because it was based on the Tabernacle and the blood sacrifice of animals which could not take away sin. The Tabernacle became Human and shed His own Blood. Jesus made the old covenant ‘obsolete’ which does not mean the 10 Commandments aren’t important.

 

[PJM]

=Dokimas;7532015]Why was the old covenant made ‘obsolete’? Because it was based on the Tabernacle and the blood sacrifice of animals which could not take away sin. The Tabernacle became Human and shed His own Blood. Jesus made the old covenant ‘obsolete’ which does not mean the 10 Commandments aren’t important.

THAT"S A GREAT QUESTION! Thanks!

Actually what is referenced here in NOT the Old Testament itself; rather the Old Testaments COVENANTS. It also implies that the OT is now completed and perfected, and points the way to the GREAT signifiance og the Life and Teachings of Christ.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

God started His church. He entrusted it to the apostles which included Paul. They started churches which were part of the one church, the Body of Christ. One of those churches became known as the CC. It dominated history for centuries.

They started Churches and wrote those Churches specific instructions to be of the same mind and judgment. Some Protestants deny the Bible timeline according to the Catholic Church and state that those letters and epistles were copied and sent to ALL the Churches. It seems they overlook that was giving ALL the Churches the same instructions. So what we had was, ONE Church in many locations. That was what you refer to as ‘became known as the CC.’ It still exists today.

Anyways, scriptures tell us of the Church’s establishment and existence which was before the New Testament had been written. The title, and topic, of this thread was a straightforward question. I have seen some go to great lengths to avoid the simple straightforward answer.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Why was the old covenant made ‘obsolete’? Because it was based on the Tabernacle and the blood sacrifice of animals which could not take away sin. The Tabernacle became Human and shed His own Blood. Jesus made the old covenant ‘obsolete’ which does not mean the 10 Commandments aren’t important.

A covenant can be looked at in two ways 1) As an agreement, contract, promise between two parties 2) The actual wording of that covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Hebrews 8
1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8** For finding fault with them**, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 **Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. **
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb, 8:7 is talking about the first definition of covenant. IOW it is talking about the promise that the children of Israel made that they would keep the covenant, second definition, of God, the Ten Commandments. Notice v.8 says “For finding fault with them”
The ten commandments where spoken by the mouth of God and written by His own finger. They are a reflection of His perfect character and as such they are perfect.

It says in v.6 6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Here is the old promise

Exodus 19
7And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. (covenant, second definition)
8And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. (covenant, first definition) And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

This is the promise of the people of God, first definition of covenant, that was replaced or
“established upon better promises.” The wording of the covenant as I have shown is perfect or faultless and will never be replaced. So what was the first covenant, first definition, replaced with? Well, it was replaced with the promise of Jesus Christ to keep the covenant of God, second definition.

So ther are actually three covenants being spoken of in Heb.8 1) the wording of the covenant, ten commandments, perfectand will never be replaced. 2) The faulty covenant, promise of the children of Israel to keep the commandments. “All that the LORD hath spoken we will do” which covenant they brake. And 3) the covenant that God made with the children of Israel’s representative Jesus Christ. This is the “New Covenant” which He kept and sealed with His blood.

 

[agent_grey]

Obviously the church was first. The scriptures are a written record of a pre-existing tradition. Neither are infallable and both are the words/actions of men.

Anybody that teaches that the bible is infallible or that a tradition is infallible is a Pagan. And is guilty of violating the imperative written on every mans conscinece which states that we shall have no false Gods.