What was first?

[Prodigal_Son1]

Yeah…

I believe that the Reformators did the right thing: They went “ad fontes” (to the sources). (i.e. when translating the Bible; remember: The RCC is still using the Vulgate to translate the Bible in modern languages?!)

So, actually, I still somehow think that the Reformators sort of (as they, and many other ministers in their manner claim) have “restored” the true faith.

I think the CC has too long relied on tradition… (Actually, the whole middle-ages. The CC was even against the “theory” of the heliocentric world view. - Which we in the meantime know is very true. Kopernikus, Galileo Galilei…) This is what I love the spirit of the Renaissance so. Man, this is really one of my most favourite epochs in history.

I think I’ve made my point clear!

And don’t you think Martin Luther used the Vulgate?

Do you think the King James Version is more reliable?

James gave the translators instructions intended to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its beliefs about an ordained clergy.

Also, if you think the reformers sort of restored the true faith, how many generations do you think God let go without the ‘true faith’? And, does that mean less than the gates of hell prevailed, even if temporarily?

 

[Heliotropium]

I think that the disciples were the “first Christians” - and I think that the commandment of Jesus doesn’t only apply to the apostles, but also to all other Christians (nowadays). So you believe the commandment changed? You admit that it was an authority given only to the apostles in the begining but now its for everyone? Do you have the power to retain your brothers sins? Have you retained your brothers sins before? Have you retained your own? Do you know what would be a sufficant reason to retain ones sins?

Priesthood for all. I think everyone can forgive sins in the name of Jesus. - Or actually, Jesus himself forgives sins, neither a Catholic priest, nor a brother or sister in Christ, whom you confess. I don’t really how to put it: Maybe, a Catholic priest, as well as a brother in Christ are only witnesses before Christ that the person confessing really feels sorry for his sins and promises to change. - Something like that. That’s what I blelieve.

My dear brother in Christ you dont know how to put it because it doesnt sound right. You neither have the authority to forgive me of my sins or retain my sins. You are right that Christ is the one who does this

Well, somehow my answer above links your point here…

You answers for one do not make sense and it sounds like your chosing your opinion over what the Scriptures clearly show is the way things should be in Christs Church. I see in the Scriptures that Christ gave this authority only to the men he called to be his ministers, priests, and Bishops. I do not deviate from this because if I was to do so it would be with no proof from the Scriptures showing me that I could. If I dont follow the Word of God then I follow my opinion and this is something I should not do especially when Gods Word is clear on who he gave this authority to and who he didnt give it to.

And I think some priests really need to get a bit more humble. Especially in the older days here in Austria, priests nearly behaved like gods. - IMO, even worse as the Pharisees in the OT. And this is also one of the many reasons why I went more and more away from the CC. -Until now when I am actually, more or less, a Catholic on the paper only and attending a Baptist Church. - And one thing I realised: The pastor(s) there are one thing: humble. - In contrast to some Catholic priests I know (and knew. As I am thinking a particular one who has been for 20 years the pastor in our parish; - But who died in 2004)

My dear brother in Christ we could go back and forth all day about examples of preist, ministers, preachers, bishops and it would get us nowhere. Im not scandalized by sinners in my Church for Christ said the wheat and the weeds would grow together but also becauseI we are all sinners! If I was to stop following the Church because of sinners within it then I would have left after reading the Scriptures when I read that Judas an apostle betrayed our Lord, or when the other nine left him during His Passion and death on the Cross. How about when Peter denied Him three times? Please friend I could show you humble priests, and I can show you prideful priests. The same with Baptist ministers

What I cant show you though is where in the Scriptures Christ says that every Christian has this authority “whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”–Mathew 16:19.

Also you misunderstand the priestly office. No priest believes they themselves had the power to forgive or retain sins but that Christ does this through them. They are epresentatives/ambassadors of Christ and when you run from one of them you run from Chirst Himself. Confession is a sacrament where God Himself calls us to talk to Him and to do so face to face in the Confessional. When you go to confesion you physically see a priest but what you dont see is Christ who being truly present working through His priests to confer absolution and grace on your soul.

“All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God”–2 Corinthians 5:18-21

Look my dear brother! Look at what Pual is telling you! He as Bishop is and ambassador of Christ and he has this office so that Christ will work through him to forgive you of your sins! Be reconciled to God my friend and do not continue to stay outside of His Catholic Church which holds this ministry of reconcilliation. The Catholic Church which has Holy Orders that are directs sucessors this same Bishop Saint Paul and who also have as an ambassador of Christ the authority to forgive or retain your sins.

*“Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters (Priests) of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed.”–James 5:14-16 *

Look my friend see! In James it is a priest that is called to forgive sins! A priest is the other person you should confess your sins too!

Come back to the Catholic Church and be reconciled to God my brother and receive Gods grace from one of His ambassadors who has the authority given to Him by Christ to carry out the ministry of reconciliation.

God Bless

/QUOTE]

 

[mackbrislawn]

Yeah…

The CC was even against the “theory” of the heliocentric world view. - Which we in the meantime know is very true. Kopernikus, Galileo Galilei…)

QUOTE]

It is said that the CC was against the theory of the heliocentric world view. But, what was the view of the Protestants of that day to the ideo of a heliocentric world view? Was it any different than the CC’s? Were the Protestants all in favor it it? This question seems never to be asked. But I can’t imagine their view to be much different from the CC’s. That is, were they any more receptive to the heliocentric world view than the Catholics? It doesn’t seem probable, so why pick on the CC?

However, it is true there was much variability of opinion back then among thinkers on this topic. The CC as a whole wasn’t monolithically against Galileo–he had many friends in the Church who supported him, not just those who opposed him. Galileo’s main problem was that he had made an enemy of the pope by making fun of the pope’s views in Galileo’s Dialogues, putting the pope’s words in the mouth of Simplicio! Galileo could be quite sarcastic, but he was wrong about the cause of the tides, and the pope was right.

In regards to hanging on to tradition, as if that were a bad thing…who is it that is doing it now in regards to the “theory” of evolution? Why, it is Protestant fundamentalists.

Incidentally, Kopernikus was a Catholic cleric and Galileo remained a faithful Catholic all his life.

 

[PJM]

=Esdra;7548542]I think that the disciples were the “first Christians” - and I think that the commandment of Jesus doesn’t only apply to the apostles, but also to all other Christians (nowadays). So you believe the commandment changed? You admit that it was an authority given only to the apostles in the begining but now its for everyone?

MY comments: Friends the Commandments date back to the time Of Moses [READ Exo. ch. 20] So your undestanding is off.

THE REPLY

Priesthood for all. I think everyone can forgive sins in the name of Jesus. - Or actually, Jesus himself forgives sins, neither a Catholic priest, nor a brother or sister in Christ, whom you confess…

My comments:
That friend is not what Jesus Himself Teaches and COMMANDS: ** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. ** Jesus said to them ** again, “Peace be with you. ** As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” ** And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

And I think some priests really need to get a bit more humble. Especially in the older days here in Austria, priests nearly behaved like gods. - IMO, even worse as the Pharisees in the OT. And this is also one of the many reasons why I went more and more away from the CC. -Until now when I am actually, more or less, a Catholic on the paper only and attending a Baptist Church. - And one thing I realised: The pastor(s) there are one thing: humble. - In contrast to some Catholic priests I know (and knew. As I am thinking a particular one who has been for 20 years the pastor in our parish; - But who died in 2004)

My comments
Friend your Baptist Minister can’t forgive your sins. Nor can he make Jesus Christ “truly, Really and substanually” Present for you. IMO… you gave a a GREAT deal to leave the only church founded by Christ Himself. It’s easy to think a priestis bing pompus; when in fact all he is doing is what Christ Commanded [Matt. 28:19-20] and is “Pontificating” Christ mny teachings and mandates.

What I cant show you though is where in the Scriptures Christ says that every Christian has this authority “whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”–Mathew 16:19.

My comments: ACTUALLY NOT! Mt. 16:15-19 Matt.1615- 19 "He [JESUS]said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! [PETER} For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys ]of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
**
NOT every one JUST Peter andin Mt. 18:18 the other Apostles and successors.*

God Bless
Pat [PJM]

 

[guanophore]

Concerning no sex outside marriage: I haven’t realized that much having been a Catholic. (Nearly all Austrians are Catholics, at least on the paper.) - Sex outside the marriage was the most normal thing for me… Same goes for divorce (I learned about that here on CAF!!). - Both are the most normal things in the world (at least in Europe)!
So you would say, well, 70% of all the Catholics in Austria are not Catholic? (Considering your sentence: "How you view others in practice of the mentioned is never Catholic teaching.)

Yes. at least. By your own testimony, you were not raised Catholic. You were not taught the Catholic faith, and did not practice Catholic faith. You were, as most American Catholics are now, a “nominal” Catholic (in name only). You may have been baptized Catholic, but that is where the Catholicity stops.
Aren’t the believers the mirror of the Church? How should one know how to live a Catholic life, sticking to the doctrine, if there is noone who actually does?!

Well, actually I don’t have a problem with confessing my sins before recieving the Eucharist (Going to the Lord’s table). Although I believe that there is no priest needed.

Such statements reflect a poverty of understanding of Jesus intention for His Church. One of the reasons I say you were not properly catechized, and never understood the Catholic faith.

(But this of course could also be because I read from the Protestant and not the Catholic view, as already mentioned previous.)

I don’t see how this could be helped, since you never HAD a "Catholic view’.

No, actually, I don’t really believe that the bread and the wine (grape juice) is the literal Blood and Flesh of Jesus.

This is a good example of why I say that nominal catholics are really Protestants but don’t realize it.

 

[guanophore]

Well, what would then be an example for Jewish oral tradition which doesn’t say in the Old Testament, but the Jews knew about and observed them?!

A list of these was posted up the thread. I would add to that the Alexandrian canon of Scripture, used by Jesus and the Apostles. This was also adopted by the Church.

There is no list in the OT of what books should go in there.

i.e. in Isaiah, but a Jewish rabbi will certainly interpret these passages which are clear for us to be messianic completely differently!

You have hit this nail on the head. The necessity of Sacred Tradition is seen in the multitude of interpretations of the Holy Scripture, which can only be properly understood when it is interpreted according to the faith of those who wrote it. This perspective (Sacred Tradition) is preserved infallibly in the Catholic Church by the power of the HS.