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faithfulservant
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i’ve have heard as young as 57 and as old as 72… is it thought she died around the time of the Council of Jerusalem…or is that one of several possibilities?
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faithfulservant
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sorry…this is the wrong forum…it should be in apologetics i guess … mea culpa
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JM3
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patrick457
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Don’t worry, I think this is fine as it is.
Unfortunately, it is one of those questions where the answer would be ‘we don’t know’, since for a start there are no authentic contemporary records stating exactly when Mary died (or ‘fell asleep’, if that’s what you prefer), and different pious traditions conflict with one another, as you note: some say she was seventy-two, others fifty-seven, still others sixty, and so on. If we assume that Mary was married to Joseph when she was in her early teens, perhaps just after the onset of puberty - say, thirteen to fifteen years old (life expectancy was rather short, so people married early in those days), we can imagine that Mary would have been in her mid-forties by the time Jesus died (assuming that Jesus was in His late twenties-thirties at that time). Hence, imagining that that is the case she would have been older than that at the time of her dormition/assumption.
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Jimmygill88
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We don’t know
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Don_Jackson
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Jimmy’s is probably the best answer.
However, it is a Franciscan tradition that she lived 72 years, and that is why two additional Hail Marys are said following the 7 decades of the Crown Rosary.
Peace and all good!
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faithfulservant
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one of my message board friends suggested she died during the Council of Jerusalem…or thereabouts, contradicting emmerich’s revelation that she died in ephesus … isn’t the Council of Jerusalem pretty well established at 48 AD … i had never heard that “fact”/ “pious tradition” before today…anyone else ?
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Usagi
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I have not heard of the connection with the Council before now, but it is a pious tradition that all the surviving apostles returned from their far-flung travels to be at Mary’s deathbed (with poor Thomas arriving late from India and initially doubting the Assumption). It’s possible that some have suggested that Mary’s death coincided with the apostles’ gathering in Jerusalem to discuss the status of Gentile Christians.
Usagi
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AmbroseSJ
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If this is true, then the Virgin Mary was 63. 15 years to the Incarnation, 33 years more to the Crucifixion, and 15 years more to her resurrection and Assumption.
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patrick457
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I should add that the idea of Jesus being thirty-three (or rather, thirty-three and a half) when He died is ultimately derived, not from the gospels, but from a patristic interpretation of the final week of Daniel’s Seventy Weeks (currently a staple of much end-times speculations). In reality the gospels are really ambiguous as to how long Jesus’ ministry lasted.
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minichibi
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I thought the idea came from both Luke’s “He was about 30 when He started his ministry” and John’s 3 year-ministry.
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patrick457
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That’s it: John doesn’t really seem to describe a three-year ministry, if we go by a literal reading of the gospel. What he describes during the course of the narrative are three Passovers (2:13; 6:4; 11:55ff.) - Jesus begins and ends His ministry in one. Besides Passover, John also mentions an unspecified “feast of the Judaeans” in 5:1, while chapter 7 is set during “the Judaean feast of Booths” (cf. verse 2) and 10:22ff is set during “the feast of the Dedication.”
Much speculation has arisen over the identity of the unnamed feast of chapter 5. Some have suggested that it also refers to Passover (thereby making the total of Passovers in John into four, hence supporting the idea of a three-year ministry), others think that it is a reference to Shavuot (aka Pentecost), still others take it as referring to Purim, and so on and so forth.
Late March-late April (Spring): First Passover (2:13)
??: Unnamed feast (5:1)
Late March-late April (Spring): Second Passover (6:4)
Late September-late October (Autumn): Booths (7:1ff.)
Late November-late December (Winter): Dedication (10:22ff.)
Late March-late April (Spring): Third Passover (11:55ff.)
According to this reckoning, since Jesus began His ministry somewhere before the first recorded Passover, it would make the length of time He was in public only slightly more than two years.
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minichibi
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Makes sense, but coming back to Mary’s age.
John 8:57 could be used by some critics as an argument that Jesus was in his 40’s:
The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?”
Also, someone commented in one of my posts the passage of the Halley’s Comet on 12 BC further associating it to the Star of Bethlehem.
John 8:57 could be used by some critics as an argument that Jesus was in his 40’s:
The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?”
Also, someone commented in one of my posts the passage of the Halley’s Comet on 12 BC further associating it to the Star of Bethlehem.
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thistle
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We don’t even know how old Jesus was when he died. The Bible only says he was about 30 when his public ministry began. That can mean several years earlier up to several years later than 30 and his ministry lasted 3 years. People mistakenly take 30 and add 3 and say he died at 33. We don’t know that.
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Crimsonflyboy
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It should be pointed out that it is still in dispute whether Our Lady did in fact die or not.
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patrick457
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Not to mention we don’t even know whether it was really three and a half years or not.
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Battleaxe
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Most orthodox scholars seem to think she died; and there`s an empty tomb in Jerusalem with her name “on” it.
Not absolute proof, but…
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Crimsonflyboy
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Our Lady’s body is in heaven, her tomb should be empty. In Pope Pius XII’s apostolic constitution Munificentissimus Deus His Holliness artfully avoided the issue of whether or not Our Lady died or not. The issue is still very much open. We know Our Lady was taken body and soul into heaven, did she die first or not? It has not yet been defined.Most orthodox scholars seem to think she died; and there`s an empty tomb in Jerusalem with her name “on” it.
Not absolute proof, but…
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patrick457
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It isn’t officially defined, but the traditional idea is that she did, which is what is commemorated in the Eastern feast of the Dormition (Koimēsis) of the Theotokos. Munificentissimus Deus did leave open the question of whether or not Mary actually underwent death in connection with her departure, but it also alludes to the tradition of her death.
14. Christ’s faithful, through the teaching and the leadership of their pastors, have learned from the sacred books that the Virgin Mary, throughout the course of her earthly pilgrimage, led a life troubled by cares, hardships, and sorrows, and that, moreover, what the holy old man Simeon had foretold actually came to pass, that is, that a terribly sharp sword pierced her heart as she stood under the cross of her divine Son, our Redeemer. In the same way, it was not difficult for them to admit that the great Mother of God, like her only begotten Son, had actually passed from this life. But this in no way prevented them from believing and from professing openly that her sacred body had never been subject to the corruption of the tomb, and that the august tabernacle of the Divine Word had never been reduced to dust and ashes. Actually, enlightened by divine grace and moved by affection for her, God’s Mother and our own dearest Mother, they have contemplated in an ever clearer light the wonderful harmony and order of those privileges which the most provident God has lavished upon this loving associate of our Redeemer, privileges which reach such an exalted plane that, except for her, nothing created by God other than the human nature of Jesus Christ has ever reached this level.
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17. In the liturgical books which deal with the feast either of the dormition or of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin there are expressions that agree in testifying that, when the Virgin Mother of God passed from this earthly exile to heaven, what happened to her sacred body was, by the decree of divine Providence, in keeping with the dignity of the Mother of the Word Incarnate, and with the other privileges she had been accorded. Thus, to cite an illustrious example, this is set forth in that sacramentary which Adrian I, our predecessor of immortal memory, sent to the Emperor Charlemagne. These words are found in this volume: “Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.” (Sacramentarium Gregorianum)
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20. However, since the liturgy of the Church does not engender the Catholic faith, but rather springs from it, in such a way that the practices of the sacred worship proceed from the faith as the fruit comes from the tree, it follows that the holy Fathers and the great Doctors, in the homilies and sermons they gave the people on this feast day, did not draw their teaching from the feast itself as from a primary source, but rather they spoke of this doctrine as something already known and accepted by Christ’s faithful. They presented it more clearly. They offered more profound explanations of its meaning and nature, bringing out into sharper light the fact that this feast shows, not only that the dead body of the Blessed Virgin Mary remained incorrupt, but that she gained a triumph out of death, her heavenly glorification after the example of her only begotten Son, Jesus Christ-truths that the liturgical books had frequently touched upon concisely and briefly.
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