What was Paul trying to say?
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PJM
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[QUOTEI asked about Paul considering Jesus Lord, and what did this mean? Did Paul think Jesus was God, if so why? Secondly what did he mean by Son of God. It seems Paul considered God adopted Jesus as his son.
[/QUOTE]
1st. St. Peter warned about some of Paul’s writing being difficult to comprehend:
2 Peter 3:14-18
Now read please Acts 9: 1- 21
Here is verse 20: "[20] And in the synagogues immediately he proclaimed Jesus, saying, “He is the Son of God.”
This was Divine Wisdom INFUSED into Paul [seem Mt 16: 16-17]
Paul here speaks of something he has yet to FULLY able to comprehend: THE BLESSED TRINITY… That would come later. But YES, Paul did understand that Jesus WAS {is] God. That was the very foundation of His Ministry, and why he was a Martyr for Christ.
“But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:”
[1 Cor. 1:23] [Read please verses 21-25]
**Haydock’s Catholic Commentary shares this:
" If Saul, in consequence, receives the Holy Ghost, it was an extraordinary miraculous event, which was not an unfrequent circumstance in the infancy of Christianity. The Almighty, who establishes the laws of grace, can dispense with them himself whenever he pleases." **
[QUOTEThe next received no replies. I looked at Romans and tried to find out what Paul thought of Jesus. Did he consider him the Messiah (Christ) who would save his people and redeem them, from what and why?
[/QUOTE]
Your question is a good one and I will supply a brief answer, but you would do well to check this site out:
newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm
It will I think answer all or at-least most of your Paul Questions.
Paul spent a prolonged time in the desert [3 years I think] where he was taught the new Catholic Faith by the Holy Spirit. ….So what the other Apostles knew, taught and believed so dis Paul.
1 Cor, 16: 6-20
“Then he was seen by more than five hundred brethren at once: of whom many remain until this present, and some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen by James, then by all the apostles. [8] And last of all, he was seen also by me, as by one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God, I am what I am; and his grace in me hath not been void, but I have laboured more abundantly than all they: yet not I, but the grace of God with me.
For whether I, or they, so we preach, and so you have believed. Now if Christ be preached, that he arose again from the dead, how do some among you say, that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen again. And if Christ be not risen again, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God: because we have given testimony against God, that he hath raised up Christ; whom he hath not raised up, if the dead rise not again.
For if the dead rise not again, neither is Christ risen again. And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain, for you are yet in your sins. Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ, are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now Christ is risen from the dead, the first-fruits of them that sleep”
“Missionary Strategy
Paul believed that Christ had come for all and the observances of Jewish Law were not necessary for those who believed in Christ (Gal 2:15-21 - 3:1-5). This created an ongoing battle with those who thought that Jewish observances were necessary for all those who sought entrance into the Church (Gal 5:7-12).
St. Paul’s Essential Message
In Jesus Christ God had acted to provide salvation for all who believe (Rom 1: 1-7). This salvation, whose complete realization lay in the future, has its beginnings in the present. People can experience this salvation in their own lives (Rom 8:14-17).
Centrality of Jesus Christ
Christians are united with Christ through faith (Rom 5: 1-2) and rejoice in the gift of God’s Spirit, waiting for the time when the Lord will return and the work of salvation complete (1 Thess 4:13-18).
The Christian’s Bond with Christ
Through faith and baptism (Rom 6: 3-5) the Christian assumes a new identity in Christ. On the social level, the Christian joins the community of the church, which proclaims the Gospel and lives in union with Christ’s Spirit (Gal 3: 25-28)”
I pray my friend this answers your questions? IF NOT PLEASE CONTACT ME
God Bless you,
Patrick [PJM]
PJM,
many thanks for your long reply.
I appreiate it that so many have taken the time to send such thoughtful replies to my queries.
You wrote:
*Paul here speaks of something he has yet to FULLY able to comprehend: THE BLESSED TRINITY… That would come later. But YES, Paul did understand that Jesus WAS {is] God. That was the very foundation of His Ministry, and why he was a Martyr for Christ.
“But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:”*
I agree completely that Paul did not fully comprehend the Trinity. If he did he would be God.
The consensus is he believed that Jesus is God, but this is not very clearly expressed.
Would it be correct to say the foundation of Paul’s ministry was to preach Jesus Christ?
Some would say the foundation of his gospel is that we are saved by grace/ faith, not by works.
I agree with
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:"
This does not say anything about Jesus being God.
It is an article of our faith that Jesus is God, but that is not the issue.
many thanks for your long reply.
I appreiate it that so many have taken the time to send such thoughtful replies to my queries.
You wrote:
*Paul here speaks of something he has yet to FULLY able to comprehend: THE BLESSED TRINITY… That would come later. But YES, Paul did understand that Jesus WAS {is] God. That was the very foundation of His Ministry, and why he was a Martyr for Christ.
“But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:”*
I agree completely that Paul did not fully comprehend the Trinity. If he did he would be God.
The consensus is he believed that Jesus is God, but this is not very clearly expressed.
Would it be correct to say the foundation of Paul’s ministry was to preach Jesus Christ?
Some would say the foundation of his gospel is that we are saved by grace/ faith, not by works.
I agree with
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:"
This does not say anything about Jesus being God.
It is an article of our faith that Jesus is God, but that is not the issue.
J
James248
Guest
Which was one blot in an otherwise holy life.
P
PJM
Guest
Now read please Acts 9: 1- 21
Here is verse 20: "[20] And in the synagogues immediately he proclaimed Jesus, saying, “He is the Son of God.”
Acts.9: [20] And in the synagogues immediately he proclaimed Jesus, saying, "He is the Son of God."
That dear friend seems precisely clear
Continued Blessings,
Patrick
E
Evangelical_chr
Guest
Yes there are a few bgood opinions .
BUT Paul. Spoke with the spirit of the holy spirit
And encouraged the church to be led by the h.s.
This is why he said to the glations . did you receive the baptism of the holy spirit by the listening to these opinions?
If you are not functioning prophetically with the holy spirit then you won’t understand saint Paul and his instruction.
And people here can barley do tongues and prophecy interpretation.
Everything Paul does is the demonstration of the holy spirit.
BUT Paul. Spoke with the spirit of the holy spirit
And encouraged the church to be led by the h.s.
This is why he said to the glations . did you receive the baptism of the holy spirit by the listening to these opinions?
If you are not functioning prophetically with the holy spirit then you won’t understand saint Paul and his instruction.
And people here can barley do tongues and prophecy interpretation.
Everything Paul does is the demonstration of the holy spirit.
J
James248
Guest
Paul didn’t speak in tongues when the Holy Ghost came on him.
A
animalis
Guest
The biblical terms Son of God and Son of Man take on Jewish semantics. Sadly, today it seems most Jews have disinherited that understanding. I would recommend avoiding the curiosity of that type of semantic unless you find an opportunity to speak with a scholar. For the mean time consider wholesome resources on the Trinity, e.g. “The Trinity: How Not to Be a Heretic” by Stephen Bullivant.
According to Bishop Robert Barron, Paul called Jesus Lord in direct pastoral opposition to the emperor in Rome. The Roman emperors ruled their empire in arrogance to the point of attempting to usurp prerogatives of God. Christians did not see the state as the end of which to serve, but rather Paul’s preaching was to place Jesus, the second person of the blessed Trinity as the model of service to the Father as the end (the first person of the blessed Trinity). We do this by putting on Christ in the “sanctuary of regeneration” (S. Ambrose, On the Mysteries, 2, 5) through the procession of the third person of the Blessed Trinity, the Holy Spirit. Prior to baptism they instructed people to turn away from Satan and toward the east, to take in the “odor of resurrection” (cf. S. Ambrose, On the Mysteries, 6, 29 cf. Songs 1:2, 1;3) Paul established houses of prayer for this purpose and before his death told Timothy to do the same thing. (cf. 1 Tim 2:1) If you google Saint Cyril of Jerusalem and read his writings you see a good example of what was instructed prior to entrance into the Church.
According to Bishop Robert Barron, Paul called Jesus Lord in direct pastoral opposition to the emperor in Rome. The Roman emperors ruled their empire in arrogance to the point of attempting to usurp prerogatives of God. Christians did not see the state as the end of which to serve, but rather Paul’s preaching was to place Jesus, the second person of the blessed Trinity as the model of service to the Father as the end (the first person of the blessed Trinity). We do this by putting on Christ in the “sanctuary of regeneration” (S. Ambrose, On the Mysteries, 2, 5) through the procession of the third person of the Blessed Trinity, the Holy Spirit. Prior to baptism they instructed people to turn away from Satan and toward the east, to take in the “odor of resurrection” (cf. S. Ambrose, On the Mysteries, 6, 29 cf. Songs 1:2, 1;3) Paul established houses of prayer for this purpose and before his death told Timothy to do the same thing. (cf. 1 Tim 2:1) If you google Saint Cyril of Jerusalem and read his writings you see a good example of what was instructed prior to entrance into the Church.
Animalis,
Many thanks for your reply.
Some days ago I heard Stephen Bullivant talk in Dublin. He was excellent.
I disagree with you.
Paul was a strong supporter of the Empire and rejoiced in his citizenship. He was loyal and a supporter of the Emperor.
*Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it, for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer. Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience. This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is (Rom. 13:1-7 NAB)
Remind them to be under the control of magistrates and authorities, to be obedient, to be open to every good enterprise. They are to slander no one, to be peaceable, considerate, exercising all graciousness toward everyone. (Tit. 3:1-2 NAB)
Many thanks for your reply.
Some days ago I heard Stephen Bullivant talk in Dublin. He was excellent.
I disagree with you.
Paul was a strong supporter of the Empire and rejoiced in his citizenship. He was loyal and a supporter of the Emperor.
*Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it, for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer. Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience. This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is (Rom. 13:1-7 NAB)
Remind them to be under the control of magistrates and authorities, to be obedient, to be open to every good enterprise. They are to slander no one, to be peaceable, considerate, exercising all graciousness toward everyone. (Tit. 3:1-2 NAB)
A
animalis
Guest
We may disagree, but I am certain we will learn more to come to a better agreement in the end.
V
Vico
Guest
But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever
Hebrews 1:81 God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all,
2 In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world.
…
8 But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Haydock Commentary
Ver. 8-9. But to the Son. That is, to his Son Jesus Christ, he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, and lasts for eternity.
— A sceptre, or rod of equity, is the sceptre of thy kingdom. That is, O Christ, God and man, head of thy Church, judge of all mankind, thou shalt reward and punish all under thee with justice and equity, as thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee. Many here understand God first named, to be in the vocative case, and that the sense is: therefore thee, O God, thy God, hath anointed: thus Christ is called God. Others take God in both places to be in the nominative case, and to be only a repetition of God the Father; and the sense to be, thee Christ, God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above them that are partakers with thee: by which spiritual unction, some understand graces infused into Christ’s soul at his incarnation, by a greater plenitude of graces than was ever given to any saints whom he made partakers of his glory in heaven; others expound it of an unction of greater glory given to Christ in heaven as man, because by his sufferings and merits he had destroyed and triumphed over sin. See Estius, Cornelius a Lapide, &c. (Witham)
These quotes concern me as they might seem to imply adoptionism or subordinationism.
It is important to believe the Son is equal to the Father, coequal and coeternal.
The Father did not appoint the Son heir of all things and did not use the Son to create the world. The Son was, is and will be God.
God did not anoint the Son above his fellows.
A
animalis
Guest
“Christ assumed our defects that He might satisfy for us, that He might prove the truth of His human nature, and that He might become an example of virtue to us.” (S. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, q. 15, a. 1)
We believe in the hypostatic union, that the Son is fully God and fully man. Two natures, divine and human, one divine person.
V
Vico
Guest
Subordinationism denies the consubstantiality of the Son and Holy Spirit with the Father. Relational subordinationism is not contrary since there is no denial of consubstantial communion: For the reference of St. Paul, oil of gladness, read Psalm 45.
Catechism 248
248 At the outset the Eastern tradition expresses the Father’s character as first origin of the Spirit. By confessing the Spirit as he “who proceeds from the Father”, it affirms that he comes from the Father through the Son.77 The Western tradition expresses first the consubstantial communion between Father and Son, by saying that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque). It says this, “legitimately and with good reason”,78 for the eternal order of the divine persons in their consubstantial communion implies that the Father, as “the principle without principle”,79 is the first origin of the Spirit, but also that as Father of the only Son, he is, with the Son, the single principle from which the Holy Spirit proceeds.80 This legitimate complementarity, provided it does not become rigid, does not affect the identity of faith in the reality of the same mystery confessed.
Pontifical Council for Christian Unity:
The Greek Fathers and the whole Christian Orient speak, in this regard, of the “Father’s Monarchy,” and the Western tradition, following St. Augustine, also confesses that the Holy Spirit takes his origin from the Father principaliter, that is, as principle (De Trinitate XV, 25, 47, P.L. 42, 1094-1095). In this sense, therefore, the two traditions recognize that the “monarchy of the Father” implies that the Father is the sole Trinitarian Cause (Aitia) or Principle (Principium) of the Son and the Holy Spirit.
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUFILQ.HTM
Psalm 45
Your Throne is Forever
1 Unto the end, for them that shall be changed, for the sons of Core, for understanding. A canticle for the Beloved. My heart hath uttered a good word I speak my works to the king; My tongue is the pen of a scrivener that writeth swiftly.
2 Thou art beautiful above the sons of men: grace is poured abroad in thy lips; therefore hath God blessed thee for ever
3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O thou most mighty.
4 With thy comeliness and thy beauty set out, proceed prosperously, and reign. Because of truth and meekness and justice: and thy right hand shall conduct thee wonderfully.
5 Thy arrows are sharp: under thee shall people fall, into the hearts of the king’s enemies.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a sceptre of uprightness.
7 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Vico,
Thank you so much for your attention to my posts.
In simple language let me state that I do not consider that the Father** ‘hath appointed (the Son) heir of all things’.**
Also I do not believe the Father ‘God, hath anointed’ the Son ‘**with the oil of gladness above’ his ‘fellows’.
**
In the Trinity the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal, each of the Three Persons possesses the one Divine Essence (De Fide).
Thank you so much for your attention to my posts.
In simple language let me state that I do not consider that the Father** ‘hath appointed (the Son) heir of all things’.**
Also I do not believe the Father ‘God, hath anointed’ the Son ‘**with the oil of gladness above’ his ‘fellows’.
**
In the Trinity the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal, each of the Three Persons possesses the one Divine Essence (De Fide).
P
PJM
Guest
It means
That He Created us, and suntans our living being;
It means because of this we BELONG** to Him.
To Belong FULLY to him one needs to be a Informed and fully practicing Roman Catholic; because suffering is the NORMAL condition of human life, and Christ Instituted the SEVEN Sacraments to help us deal with life’s trials.
He teaches, ordains and commands. AMEN:thumbsup:
GBY
Patrick
P
PJM
Guest
Good Post & GREAT Advice: Thanks and GBY
I
inocente
Guest
Not sure why you’re picking Paul out as he uses the same word, κύριος (kyrios, master, lord) to refer to Jesus as do Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. - biblehub.com/greek/kurios_2962.htm
Paul gives the relationship of Jesus to God in Phil 2:
Therefore God exalted him [Jesus] to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
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