What was socially unjust about the middle ages?

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Here’s a thought: People in the Middle Ages didn’t have nearly enough diagnostic codes. We’re way more advanced in that regard. We’ve got some 18,000 of them so far, but soon we’re going to 140,000. No way the 13th century could compete with that.
😉
 
This is not accurate. There simply was not enough money to earn. Money was “real specie” ei, gold, silver, copper and bronze. That is a fundamentally limited commodity, and there was only so much in existence in Europe 1000 years ago.

The floating currency dependent on the amount of permissible credit from federal banks and international money houses had not been invented.

But their pennies were worth a penny. Our dollars are intrinsically worthless. **When China at last decides to collect the debt, this will become evident.
**
But people could, and did, improve their standard of living. They could enlarge the house, improve their fields, devise a better method of agricultural production, breed more productive animals.

Westerners have a high standard of living in large measure because of the economic resourcefulness of our medieval forefathers and mothers.
What are you talking about, the debt is in the form of Treasury bonds, which have a fixed term at which point you collect.
 
What was socially unjust about the middle ages, that is, Christendom?

I know that a lot of people, including me, admire it but I wonder what was wrong about it?
  1. the kings fought the popes too much ( to the point of imprisonment)
  2. feudal society was not able to adequately defend nations against vikings/danes (no professional army).
  3. a temptation to religious intolerance and superstition.
Those are my hypothesis about what was wrong, but I’m sure others have more substantive ones.
Let’s see:
  1. The secular rulers dabbled too much with Church governance and, at times, even liturgy or even doctrine.
  2. The Church’s rulers dabbled too much with secular governance and secular rulers, basically meddling with secular governance when not called (it’s fine if clerics provide the administration that you will hardly found among your uneducated subjects but it’s not fine when your bishops start overriding you in clearly secular matters).
  3. Kings lived in open adultery, as did major nobles. Adultery seems to have been generally common. By the way, penalties for adultery were not the same for men and women. Many bishops had mistresses and illegitimate children. Some popes also, although this was more common in the early middle ages or renaissance period than in the proper middle ages. In many countries there was a feudal custom referred to as “droît du seigneur”, whereby a feudal superior was entitled to demand his vassal’s wife.
  4. There was constant warfare and subjects died to defend their rulers’ dynastic claims. Quarrelling kings, princes and even minor lords dragged their whole domains into their private beef with some other ruler. At the same time, collective responsibility was often applied. Either way, you lost. Try disobeying your lord. But when you obey him and he loses, you’re as guilty as he was, you’re the property of the winner.
  5. Marriages were not only arranged but also consent from the people marrying was not regarded highly. Families pronounced engagements or even marriages of children. One year old wouldn’t have been too young for engagement. Feudal superiors married the heiresses of their vassals to whomever they wanted. Also people were appointed bishops in their teenage years or even younger. Nine year old archbishops, anybody? (Consummation of marriage was typically deferred until a certain age, as was the conferral of actual holy orders as opposed to the title and benefice. At least.)
  6. Early feudalism in some countries resembled banditry. Basically getting together a band of people and extracting protection money from the surrounding villages.
  7. The heretical “courtly love” was abounding. Longing for the unnatural love that can’t be and isn’t supposed to be consummated, but justifying the consummation on various poetical grounds anyway, justifying all sorts of playing with fire, justifying the openly declared love for the wife of another person, performing chivalric deeds in the name of a lady as opposed to God or at least the King.
  8. Soft-brained idiots taking “vows of chivalry” upon a baked pheasant close to the end of the middle ages. Enough said.
  9. Christian rulers cutting open the bellies of infidels in order to find jewelry supposedly swallowed to avoid being taken by victorious crusaders. Also, plenty of murdering of civilians anyway. Or of POWs. Or even allies.
  10. Plenty of death and other corporal penalty, including mutilation. Plucking eyes out, pulling out entrails and the drill.
Probably not worse than many other epochs but no reason to idealise it.
 
Let’s see:
  1. The secular rulers dabbled too much with Church governance and, at times, even liturgy or even doctrine.
  2. The Church’s rulers dabbled too much with secular governance and secular rulers, basically meddling with secular governance when not called (it’s fine if clerics provide the administration that you will hardly found among your uneducated subjects but it’s not fine when your bishops start overriding you in clearly secular matters).
  3. Kings lived in open adultery, as did major nobles. Adultery seems to have been generally common. By the way, penalties for adultery were not the same for men and women. Many bishops had mistresses and illegitimate children. Some popes also, although this was more common in the early middle ages or renaissance period than in the proper middle ages. In many countries there was a feudal custom referred to as “droît du seigneur”, whereby a feudal superior was entitled to demand his vassal’s wife.
  4. There was constant warfare and subjects died to defend their rulers’ dynastic claims. Quarrelling kings, princes and even minor lords dragged their whole domains into their private beef with some other ruler. At the same time, collective responsibility was often applied. Either way, you lost. Try disobeying your lord. But when you obey him and he loses, you’re as guilty as he was, you’re the property of the winner.
  5. Marriages were not only arranged but also consent from the people marrying was not regarded highly. Families pronounced engagements or even marriages of children. One year old wouldn’t have been too young for engagement. Feudal superiors married the heiresses of their vassals to whomever they wanted. Also people were appointed bishops in their teenage years or even younger. Nine year old archbishops, anybody? (Consummation of marriage was typically deferred until a certain age, as was the conferral of actual holy orders as opposed to the title and benefice. At least.)
  6. Early feudalism in some countries resembled banditry. Basically getting together a band of people and extracting protection money from the surrounding villages.
  7. The heretical “courtly love” was abounding. Longing for the unnatural love that can’t be and isn’t supposed to be consummated, but justifying the consummation on various poetical grounds anyway, justifying all sorts of playing with fire, justifying the openly declared love for the wife of another person, performing chivalric deeds in the name of a lady as opposed to God or at least the King.
  8. Soft-brained idiots taking “vows of chivalry” upon a baked pheasant close to the end of the middle ages. Enough said.
  9. Christian rulers cutting open the bellies of infidels in order to find jewelry supposedly swallowed to avoid being taken by victorious crusaders. Also, plenty of murdering of civilians anyway. Or of POWs. Or even allies.
  10. Plenty of death and other corporal penalty, including mutilation. Plucking eyes out, pulling out entrails and the drill.
Probably not worse than many other epochs but no reason to idealise it.
:bigyikes:

My eyes are bleeding from reading that
 
Let’s see:
  1. The secular rulers dabbled too much with Church governance and, at times, even liturgy or even doctrine.
  2. The Church’s rulers dabbled too much with secular governance and secular rulers, basically meddling with secular governance when not called (it’s fine if clerics provide the administration that you will hardly found among your uneducated subjects but it’s not fine when your bishops start overriding you in clearly secular matters).
  3. Kings lived in open adultery, as did major nobles. Adultery seems to have been generally common. By the way, penalties for adultery were not the same for men and women. Many bishops had mistresses and illegitimate children. Some popes also, although this was more common in the early middle ages or renaissance period than in the proper middle ages. In many countries there was a feudal custom referred to as “droît du seigneur”, whereby a feudal superior was entitled to demand his vassal’s wife.
  4. There was constant warfare and subjects died to defend their rulers’ dynastic claims. Quarrelling kings, princes and even minor lords dragged their whole domains into their private beef with some other ruler. At the same time, collective responsibility was often applied. Either way, you lost. Try disobeying your lord. But when you obey him and he loses, you’re as guilty as he was, you’re the property of the winner.
  5. Marriages were not only arranged but also consent from the people marrying was not regarded highly. Families pronounced engagements or even marriages of children. One year old wouldn’t have been too young for engagement. Feudal superiors married the heiresses of their vassals to whomever they wanted. Also people were appointed bishops in their teenage years or even younger. Nine year old archbishops, anybody? (Consummation of marriage was typically deferred until a certain age, as was the conferral of actual holy orders as opposed to the title and benefice. At least.)
  6. Early feudalism in some countries resembled banditry. Basically getting together a band of people and extracting protection money from the surrounding villages.
  7. The heretical “courtly love” was abounding. Longing for the unnatural love that can’t be and isn’t supposed to be consummated, but justifying the consummation on various poetical grounds anyway, justifying all sorts of playing with fire, justifying the openly declared love for the wife of another person, performing chivalric deeds in the name of a lady as opposed to God or at least the King.
  8. Soft-brained idiots taking “vows of chivalry” upon a baked pheasant close to the end of the middle ages. Enough said.
  9. Christian rulers cutting open the bellies of infidels in order to find jewelry supposedly swallowed to avoid being taken by victorious crusaders. Also, plenty of murdering of civilians anyway. Or of POWs. Or even allies.
  10. Plenty of death and other corporal penalty, including mutilation. Plucking eyes out, pulling out entrails and the drill.
Probably not worse than many other epochs but no reason to idealise it.
This is a bit like saying the 20th Century was all about rulers murdering millions of innocent people that were their own countrymen. It happened, of course, and was (so far) unprecedented in that respect. But one should not characterize the whole century that way, because it wasn’t all that way.
 
This is a bit like saying the 20th Century was all about rulers murdering millions of innocent people that were their own countrymen. It happened, of course, and was (so far) unprecedented in that respect. But one should not characterize the whole century that way, because it wasn’t all that way.
Quite true. The 20th century is without parallel in the mass killing of peoples. Far worse than the medieval period. Yet the middle ages get criticized?
 
Quite true. The 20th century is without parallel in the mass killing of peoples. Far worse than the medieval period. Yet the middle ages get criticized?
Think about poor Mary I, kill a couple hundred people you become regarded as evil, her dad was responsible for tens of thousands of deaths and he is some big hero :rolleyes:
 
It was Stalin who was reported to have said, “One death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.” That was likely a misattribution actually said by someone else. Still, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, and a number of other 20th Century dictators took the saying to heart and put it into practice. Medieval tyrants were pikers by comparison.
 
1) the kings fought the popes too much ( to the point of imprisonment)
Secular and Muslim countries still fight the Church and the clergy, and Christians(especially Catholics in General) eg. Egypt, Iraq, and China, mass killings of clergy in Mexico in the past century/turn of the 19th 20th Century, The Spanish Civil War, the list goes on…overall I think there was far less violence against the Church in the Middle Ages, at least Western Europe.
  1. feudal society was not able to adequately defend nations against vikings/danes (no professional army).
Modern armies/military technology has “failed” to defend people as well, for instance there are still, presumably, losing sides in wars. Moreover, modern warfare causes far worse destruction, eg. WW2, millions of people in just half a decade. It alone would have killed the entire population of Medieval Europe. There is no way war/armies are better now. Hiroshima and Nagasaki compared to a viking raid, no comparison - granted it would really be horrible being attacked by vikings…for other reasons:rolleyes::knight2: the battle of Stalingrad and Berlin compared to the siege of Jerusalem, again, no comparison.
  1. a temptation to religious intolerance and superstition.
Nothing unique there. Temptation to religious intolerance and superstition has been around since the fall. Communism, by its nature, has religious intolerance as one of its key features. Read anything about the Soviet persecution of the Orthodox Church and its clergy. Superstition now, although different, usually involves New Age concepts, such as spiritualism, or the espousing of Buddhist and Hindu concepts, all incompatible with our understanding of God and the human soul. Not to mention the modern tendency to unquestionably accept any theory “Science”. Don’t get me wrong the medieval ages had their superstitions and idiosyncratic beliefs as well, but I doubt if they were really any more far fetched than what many people think is perfectly reasonable now.
Those are my hypothesis about what was wrong, but I’m sure others have more substantive ones.
In short, I don’t really disagree with your proposed problems of the middle ages, but I feel that since the problems that you brought up not only weren’t unique to any specific century or local in the medieval ages, but in fact persist and have often become far worse in our own times, I think you might want to reexamine what some of the unique problems of the middle ages were.
 
This is a bit like saying the 20th Century was all about rulers murdering millions of innocent people that were their own countrymen. It happened, of course, and was (so far) unprecedented in that respect. But one should not characterize the whole century that way, because it wasn’t all that way.
The 20th century saw more victims but wars were not as frequent, actually. Depends on the country. But please remember there were fewer people in the middle ages. Percentile values would be more accurate. In the middle ages, there was basically a war every couple of years and often some form of warfare was basically constant, such as borderlands (especially where religion differed), regions with rebels (e.g. Wales), the Reconquista, Crusades, Latin Empire and Byzantine remnants, Mongol invasions, Hundred Years War, War of the Roses). Don’t like the neighbour? Let’s put a couple of border castles or keep to fire. Want to set an example in the Levant? Let’s loot a whole island and cut the noses of all inhabitants, Venetian/Greek-style.

If you take mediaeval France, for example, there was scarcely interrupted warfare with England along with crusading, intervening in the Iberian peninsula (generally with England intervening on the other side of the conflict), and internal feudal strife (e.g. Brittany, Flanders, Kathar heretics). If you take England, that was: constant warfare in France, crusaders, constant trouble in Wales and never dare you not watch the Scottish border, and then the Wars of the Roses on top of it. Spain was basically carving itself with the sword, then being several kingdoms, one of which (Aragon) bringing mayhem around the Mediterranean. Byzantium was in constant warfare, basically besieged and shrinking, itself not exactly being a peaceful country either. Poland rarely saw prolonged peace (with often internal struggle, apart from fighting every single neighbour). Italy was a battlefield much of the time. Scandinavia knew brutal civil wars. Russian duchies fought itself, the Mongols, Lithuanians, Poles and more. German in-fighting would sometimes calm down for a while but peace across the HRE was probably a rare event.
 
Secular and Muslim countries still fight the Church and the clergy, and Christians(especially Catholics in General) eg. Egypt, Iraq, and China, mass killings of clergy in Mexico in the past century/turn of the 19th 20th Century, The Spanish Civil War, the list goes on…overall I think there was far less violence against the Church in the Middle Ages, at least Western Europe.
Pope and Emperor going to war about who gets to appoint bishops, where the Pope dissolves the Emperors’ subjects’ oath of allegiance and the Emperor comes to Rome to remove the Pope physically is probably still better than a couple of moments in 20th century but not exactly a merry tale of old. The middle ages get idealised as good old times the family coat of arms goes back to, where some ancestor was knighted in the mud of the battlefield or carried the king’s banner, but little do people think how bloody a period it was. It’s my favourite period in terms of historical study but I wouldn’t like to live then (admittedly preferable to 1939 but let’s not isolate single worst years, the middle ages had a couple of their own too).
 
Women certainly were regarded as second-class citizens or less, with no rights and owned by their father, and later their husband. They couldn’t own their own property, their wishes were circumvented by the men in their lives, their medical care was directed by their father/husband, etc. They were regarded as children and baby-makers.
Sorry that is a gross distortion and in parts quite false. For example women had property and inheritance rights, the rights to practice a profession, in fact women dominated some trades such as brewing. Women even had the vote in some circumstances. And millions of them became nuns and escaped any interference by men, in fact they often became leaders in the community and even bossed men around. It was the protestant revolt which pushed women back into subservience. It wasn’t until the late 19th or 20th centuries that women’s social status regained what it had been prior to the “Reformation”.
Though, you have to be careful to separate fact from fiction. There’s the thought that women weren’t “allowed” to be educated, and some books and movies portray this notion that women were forbidden to read and write, and that it was even evil for a woman to do so. Of course, that would depend on where one lived. I’m sure it was forbidden in some obscure town. But, as far as I know, generally speaking, and the Church never forbade women from getting an education, or from reading and writing that I know of. Women of nobility, as well as nuns, were afforded an education – so it couldn’t have been forbidden. Education of women was a cost factor, and of course, in the lower classes was considered a waste of time, but surely not forbidden.
It was actually EXPECTED. for example look how many Medieval pictures of the BVM depict her READING, often being taught to read by St Anne. Whether this is historically true or not, the point is that people in the Middle Ages in Christendom saw it as the normal thing for a poor working-class girl to be taught to read by her mother.
Both men and women, as it was mentioned before, were unable to do better for themelves. If they were born into servitude, it was near impossible for them to do better. If they were born poor, it was near impossible for them to earn more money to climb out of poverty. The nobility assured it…
One common way around this (not that I’m suggesting this was the reason they did it) was to join the clergy or a religious order, when you would be the equal of all your bother priests or brother monks or nuns, and highly respected in the community. And although you wouldn’t be rich, you were unlikely to starve. .
 
The 20th century saw more victims but wars were not as frequent, actually. Depends on the country. But please remember there were fewer people in the middle ages. Percentile values would be more accurate. In the middle ages, there was basically a war every couple of years and often some form of warfare was basically constant, such as borderlands (especially where religion differed), regions with rebels (e.g. Wales), the Reconquista, Crusades, Latin Empire and Byzantine remnants, Mongol invasions, Hundred Years War, War of the Roses). Don’t like the neighbour? Let’s put a couple of border castles or keep to fire. Want to set an example in the Levant? Let’s loot a whole island and cut the noses of all inhabitants, Venetian/Greek-style.

If you take mediaeval France, for example, there was scarcely interrupted warfare with England along with crusading, intervening in the Iberian peninsula (generally with England intervening on the other side of the conflict), and internal feudal strife (e.g. Brittany, Flanders, Kathar heretics). If you take England, that was: constant warfare in France, crusaders, constant trouble in Wales and never dare you not watch the Scottish border, and then the Wars of the Roses on top of it. Spain was basically carving itself with the sword, then being several kingdoms, one of which (Aragon) bringing mayhem around the Mediterranean. Byzantium was in constant warfare, basically besieged and shrinking, itself not exactly being a peaceful country either. Poland rarely saw prolonged peace (with often internal struggle, apart from fighting every single neighbour). Italy was a battlefield much of the time. Scandinavia knew brutal civil wars. Russian duchies fought itself, the Mongols, Lithuanians, Poles and more. German in-fighting would sometimes calm down for a while but peace across the HRE was probably a rare event.
Yes but with the exception of the Mongol and the Moslem invasions/sackings/conquests, the death toll from these wars, even on a population proportional basis, was lower than WW1 and WW2, or even the Thirty Years War which occurred after the Middle Ages during the so-called “enlightenment” era.
 
What was socially unjust about the middle ages, that is, Christendom?

I know that a lot of people, including me, admire it but I wonder what was wrong about it?
  1. the kings fought the popes too much ( to the point of imprisonment)
Yeah, like it’s not as if national rulers in modern times have ever fought or imprisoned the pope eh? :rolleyes:
  1. feudal society was not able to adequately defend nations against vikings/danes (no professional army).
whereas we have standing professional armies and police forces numbering many millions with $billions worth of equipment, and they still can’t protect us from all the terrorists or even the odd drug-crazed junkie mugging us with a knife or maybe a drive-by shooting. They didn’t have to worry about nuclear war in those days either.
  1. a temptation to religious intolerance and superstition.
Both are more common now.
 
Sorry that is a gross distortion and in parts quite false. For example women had property and inheritance rights, the rights to practice a profession, in fact women dominated some trades such as brewing. Women even had the vote in some circumstances. And millions of them became nuns and escaped any interference by men, in fact they often became leaders in the community and even bossed men around. It was the protestant revolt which pushed women back into subservience. It wasn’t until the late 19th or 20th centuries that women’s social status regained what it had been prior to the “Reformation”.
It was actually EXPECTED. for example look how many Medieval pictures of the BVM depict her READING, often being taught to read by St Anne. Whether this is historically true or not, the point is that people in the Middle Ages in Christendom saw it as the normal thing for a poor working-class girl to be taught to read by her mother.
One common way around this (not that I’m suggesting this was the reason they did it) was to join the clergy or a religious order, when you would be the equal of all your bother priests or brother monks or nuns, and highly respected in the community. And although you wouldn’t be rich, you were unlikely to starve. .
Basically, feudal nobility was a concept based on service in exchange for land. Service on horseback and in fully body armour wasn’t seen as a woman’s job. Therefore women did not normally govern feudal estates or inherit (this wasn’t a rule, though).

But one definitely can’t talk about oppression of the kind that e.g. racist laws were, not any slavery or anything like that. Not even discrimination such as unequal pay in the same job (which is not out of the question even nowadays).
Yes but with the exception of the Mongol and the Moslem invasions/sackings/conquests, the death toll from these wars, even on a population proportional basis, was lower than WW1 and WW2, or even the Thirty Years War which occurred after the Middle Ages during the so-called “enlightenment” era.
WW1 and WW2 were more one-off events rather than constant warfare over the course of a century (although there were countries capable of keeping a soldier occupied outside practice manoeuvres). Before, the whole of Europe, let alone the world wouldn’t normally be broken down into two alliances, nor were there really weapons capable of mass destruction… so much. Sure, greek fire, diseased cows on catapults, otherwise it was, pardon the expression, manual slaughtering. But I wouldn’t count on mediaeval combatants being more merciful with the defeated armies or civilians than WW2 combatants.
 
Yeah, like it’s not as if national rulers in modern times have ever fought or imprisoned the pope eh? :rolleyes:
Apart from the assassination attempt of JP2 by a terrorist supposedly affiliated with communist governments, the last aggression against the pope directly was in Napoleonic times and 1525 before then (Emperor).
whereas we have standing professional armies and police forces numbering many millions with $billions worth of equipment, and they still can’t protect us from all the terrorists or even the odd drug-crazed junkie mugging us with a knife or maybe a drive-by shooting.
I’d still suspect there was more crime in the middle ages. There’s a reason nobility and upper hierarchy lived in armoured residences, even if they couldn’t afford a proper castle. Monasteries were basically castles. Cities had to be walled.
They didn’t have to worry about nuclear war in those days either.
They didn’t have the tech for nuclear power. They’d have to kill everybody manually. They sometimes did.
 
Basically, feudal nobility was a concept based on service in exchange for land. Service on horseback and in fully body armour wasn’t seen as a woman’s job. Therefore women did not normally govern feudal estates or inherit (this wasn’t a rule, though).
True there were some women who did. And even some who went into battle in armour specially made to fit a woman. St Joan of Arc was by no means the only one.
But one definitely can’t talk about oppression of the kind that e.g. racist laws were, not any slavery or anything like that. Not even discrimination such as unequal pay in the same job (which is not out of the question even nowadays).
Yes sometimes the occasional African or Asian who ended up in Europe faced less racism than he would today.
WW1 and WW2 were more one-off events rather than constant warfare over the course of a century (although there were countries capable of keeping a soldier occupied outside practice manoeuvres). Before, the whole of Europe, let alone the world wouldn’t normally be broken down into two alliances, nor were there really weapons capable of mass destruction… so much. Sure, greek fire, diseased cows on catapults, otherwise it was, pardon the expression, manual slaughtering. But I wouldn’t count on mediaeval combatants being more merciful with the defeated armies or civilians than WW2 combatants.
No human nature wasn’t any better, I was just talking about proportional body counts.
 
Apart from the assassination attempt of JP2 by a terrorist supposedly affiliated with communist governments, the last aggression against the pope directly was in Napoleonic times and 1525 before then (Emperor).
Are you serious? For one thing Napoleon and even 1525 was well after the Niddle Ages ended. And ever since the 16th century there have been millions who would gladly strangle the Pope with their bare hands if they had the chance. And since 1792 there has been a near continuous anti-Catholic and anti-papal militant army on the march. In the late 19th century they launched a totally unprovoked war of invasion against the Papal States, the ninth-largest country in Europe, murdering countless inhabitants including priests, monks and nuns, forcibly closed and seized all convents and monasteries throughout the Italian peninsula, France and elsewhere in Europe, stole 99.99% of the country without compensation whilst all of the rulers of the Great Powers simply looked the other way or even cheered their approval, despite their frequent pious platitudes that every country should be allowed self-determination andf freedom from aggressive war by its more powerful neighbours. They ejected the pope from his house and gave it to their leader who retains it to this day. They imprisoned the popes in the the Vatican for 60 years. Don’t even get me started on the aggressiobn towards the popes by the Nazis, Marxists and the “New Atheists” of our own day.
I’d still suspect there was more crime in the middle ages. There’s a reason nobility and upper hierarchy lived in armoured residences, even if they couldn’t afford a proper castle. Monasteries were basically castles. Cities had to be walled.
Well, they stopped building castles and walls around cities when technology developed to the point where cannonballs and bombs could easily blast any wall to pieces. They stopped building forts on hilltops when people invented planes that could drops bombs and shoot machine-guns from the sky. Now our fortifications are not on the “commanding heights” but deep underground where we hope that the nuclear weapons and the “smart bombs” won’t penetrate. That’s “progress” I guess.:rolleyes:
They didn’t have the tech for nuclear power. They’d have to kill everybody manually. They sometimes did.
Personally if I had the choice between an army armed with swords, bows and arrows beseiging my walled city, or a nuclear missile operator poised to turn the entire city into atoms at the touch of a button along with all its inhabitants (with those on the outskirts doomed to shocking burns, cancers etc.), I’d rather take my chances with the former.
 
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