What was the Inquisition?

[DeFide]

Only 2-3 thousand people over six hundred years?
That’s is what 4-5 people a year killed?
Have you ever seen those torture devices?
Look up judas cradle or skull crusher or the rack.
Tell me again how only 4 or 5 people a year got killed.

This just isn’t logical. The nature of penal devices has no association with the number of people executed.

 

[newbie1234]

We shouldn’t have to. You should provide the citation yourself. However, I found the article and it’s a collection of quotes from 19th-century propaganda. No reputable modern historians are cited. The article is totally worthless.

Again, no link is cited. If you want to make an argument you will have to give your sources yourself instead of telling your critics to go look them up.

I’m not going to argue that torture wasn’t gruesome–it always is. But the Inquisition operated under stricter rules than secular governments. There was at least some effort to keep this appalling practice within bounds.

In what way? How are they united?

Why would I want to read stock Protestant propaganda? I don’t listen to Catholic propaganda about Protestants. It’s all worthless on both sides. Why not study some real history instead?

Edwin

All inquisitions were united by the papacy.

 

[Redbandito]

Only 2-3 thousand people over six hundred years?
That’s is what 4-5 people a year killed?
Have you ever seen those torture devices?
Look up judas cradle or skull crusher or the rack.
Tell me again how only 4 or 5 people a year got killed.

I know! The internet is definitely the best way to find credible information. Newbie, some people will believe what they want to believe no matter what. You keep talking past everyone, refusing to engage the argument. Why? So you can post more of your propaganda. I’m not interested in a monologue. God bless you.

 

[Mannyfit75]

All inquisitions were united by the papacy.

Why are you so Anti-Catholic? Every post I read of yours is like Jack Chick.

 

[Redbandito]

I’ve read most of the links, in fact if you look above you’ll see that I posted a link myself from a Catholic source. Sure, there is plenty of misinformation going around about the inquisitions and people use the inquisition as a way to attack the Catholic Church. Nonetheless, some historical facts seem to be indisputable. Among these facts are that the inquisitions involved and/or were approved by the Church in some fashion and a number of people (two or three thousand according to the cite you provided) were executed. Many others were tried and convicted but not executed because they repented of the sins of which they were accused. Catholics seem to make a big deal out of the argument that the executions were performed by the State and not the Church, but that’s a red herring. The State followed the instructions of the Church. It was not like the Church was unaware of what would happen when it handed someone whom it convicted of heresy over to the State. And, finally, people were executed for the crime of heresy…i.e., incorrect or false beliefs as defined by the Church. In other words, they were executed because of their religious faith which, again, I submit was not a good thing.

Actually, that’s not true. I recommend reading a book called “Inquistion” by Edward Peters. The reality was that when Constantine nationalized Christianity, he brought with it some of the previous Roman practices of law. inquisitions already had their root in this. In other words, the Church’s orthodoxy became synonomous with State law. This was not at the beckoning of the Bishops, but rather at the insistence of the Emperor who sought unity and peace in his Empire. These practices grew from there. So, the “state” was not at the whim of the “Church” as you suggest. And while, people were executed because of what they believed, it was much more than that. It was not simply that they disbelieved, but also the threat they posed to the stability of the state because of it. It is false to argue that the Church was simply trying to coerce people to be Catholic by force.

 

[Redbandito]

Who cares? People on death row are there because they were convicted of capital crimes which, in almost all cases, requires a conviction of murder with specified aggravating circumstances. (In other words, simply killing someone because you don’t like them would not subject you to the death penalty in most circumstances). People pursuant to the Inquisition were executed for the most part because they were considered to be heretics…in other words they were executed because the State and the Church did not approve of their religious beliefs.

Again, this is simply an oversimplification of the facts.

 

[jmcrae]

Who cares? People on death row are there because they were convicted of capital crimes which, in almost all cases, requires a conviction of murder with specified aggravating circumstances. (In other words, simply killing someone because you don’t like them would not subject you to the death penalty in most circumstances). People pursuant to the Inquisition were executed for the most part because they were considered to be heretics…in other words they were executed because the State and the Church did not approve of their religious beliefs.

People convicted with the death penalty in the Inquisition were also guilty of killing innocent people (orphans, nuns, etc.), along with massive property damage.

As I mentioned above, they didn’t convict people for keeping their heretical beliefs to themselves and just minding their own business - the ones who got it were the most blatantly violent ones.

Even Martin Luther died of old age - he was not sufficiently violent to merit the Inquisition, despite inciting riots among the peasants on at least one occasion, according to Lutheran historians.

 

[newbie1234]

Why are you so Anti-Catholic? Every post I read of yours is like Jack Chick.

The papal bulls exist.
The torture devices exist.
Whether there were ten thousand tortured and killed or ten million doesn’t really matter.
This is the history of the papacy of the RCC.
To say it is a myth or propaganda you’re kidding yourself.
These things happened.
You can call me ignorant or any other name, it won’t change history.
Investigate it for yourself.

 

[newbie1234]

Actually, that’s not true. I recommend reading a book called “Inquistion” by Edward Peters. The reality was that when Constantine nationalized Christianity, he brought with it some of the previous Roman practices of law. inquisitions already had their root in this. In other words, the Church’s orthodoxy became synonomous with State law. This was not at the beckoning of the Bishops, but rather at the insistence of the Emperor who sought unity and peace in his Empire. These practices grew from there. So, the “state” was not at the whim of the “Church” as you suggest. And while, people were executed because of what they believed, it was much more than that. It was not simply that they disbelieved, but also the threat they posed to the stability of the state because of it. It is false to argue that the Church was simply trying to coerce people to be Catholic by force.

If the church never coerced people what were the crusades all about?

 

[rr1213]

Actually, that’s not true. I recommend reading a book called “Inquistion” by Edward Peters. The reality was that when Constantine nationalized Christianity, he brought with it some of the previous Roman practices of law. inquisitions already had their root in this. In other words, the Church’s orthodoxy became synonomous with State law. This was not at the beckoning of the Bishops, but rather at the insistence of the Emperor who sought unity and peace in his Empire. These practices grew from there. So, the “state” was not at the whim of the “Church” as you suggest. And while, people were executed because of what they believed, it was much more than that. It was not simply that they disbelieved, but also the threat they posed to the stability of the state because of it. It is false to argue that the Church was simply trying to coerce people to be Catholic by force.

Is it your contention that the Church played no role in the inquisitions?

 

[rr1213]

People convicted with the death penalty in the Inquisition were also guilty of killing innocent people (orphans, nuns, etc.), along with massive property damage.

As I mentioned above, they didn’t convict people for keeping their heretical beliefs to themselves and just minding their own business - the ones who got it were the most blatantly violent ones.

Even Martin Luther died of old age - he was not sufficiently violent to merit the Inquisition, despite inciting riots among the peasants on at least one occasion, according to Lutheran historians.

Luther died of old age because he was protected from Catholic authorities and the Holy Roman Emperor.

Are you denying that people were killed at the behest of the inquisition because they were found to be heretics?

 

[Redbandito]

If the church never coerced people what were the crusades all about?

The Crusades were a defense against and response to Muslim Emperialism. You should thank God for the Crusades! Without them there might not be Christianity today, at least not as we know it.

 

[rr1213]

Again, this is simply an oversimplification of the facts.

I don’t think so. Do you deny that as a result of the inquisitions some people were executed because they were convicted of heresy?

 

[jmcrae]

If the church never coerced people what were the crusades all about?

Uh - the defense of Europe against Muslim invasion, and free, safe access to Jerusalem for Christian pilgrims?

Yes, some of the soldiers got carried away. All wars, including wars of self-defense, include events that everyone regrets. (That’s why we need to be praying the Rosary for peace every day.)

 

[jmcrae]

Are you denying that people were killed at the behest of the inquisition because they were found to be heretics?

In most cases, they were suspected of being heretics because they were known to have burned down/vandalized churches, monasteries, and other sacred buildings, and killing (sometimes by accident, sometimes on purpose) innocent persons such as nuns and orphans.

They were brought to trial and convicted of whatever they were guilty of, and given the death penalty in cases where it was clear that they were a danger to society, exactly the same as the modern day death penalty.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

With the Moors having overrun Spain and the Church trying to reestablish itself the Inquisition begun by the Brothers of the Poor (Mendicants) was a good way to reeducate people. Not only did the Church face the Moors but had to contend with the Cathars and Waldensians who taught that matter was evil and raised armies against the Church. What is interesting is that probably no more than 600 people were executed mostly not by the Church but by the state to enforce laws for the benefit of society. This figure covers 350 years. Compare that figure with the relative debauchery of America. In a thirty eight year period from 1977-2005 1004 persons have been executed in the USA. Worldwide nearly 2500 persons were executed by various states around the world in one year: 2005. I’d say that the middle ages were much more civil and peaceable than our own age.

CDL

 

[Mannyfit75]

The papal bulls exist.
The torture devices exist.
Whether there were ten thousand tortured and killed or ten million doesn’t really matter.
This is the history of the papacy of the RCC.
To say it is a myth or propaganda you’re kidding yourself.
These things happened.
You can call me ignorant or any other name, it won’t change history.
Investigate it for yourself.

I have and I’m not convince that the mere fact that there Catholics who done sinful things doesn’t invalid the Holiness of the Catholic Church.

We are sinners, and we are often tempted by the Devil himself to commit acts against our brothers.

Even at the time of Jesus Christ, 1 Apostle betrayed him, and another denied the Lord 3 times. Does this invalid, the divinity of Jesus?

No. Mankind can commit sin because of the Adam and Eve’s disobedient to God. God promised his Church from teaching errors in terms of moral and faith. God did not promise his Apostles and their successors to be impeccable.

You know what impeccable means right? Look that up. Many Protestants like yourself confuse impeccable with infallible.

I do acknowledge the Church had condone the Inquistions to convict heretics, and criminals. The Church itself did not execute, but the secular governments put those into action.

The false statistics that 50 million died during the inquistion is false. In Europe, there were not that many people yet. The reasonable number would be around 2,000.

 

[rr1213]

In most cases, they were suspected of being heretics because they were known to have burned down/vandalized churches, monasteries, and other sacred buildings, and killing (sometimes by accident, sometimes on purpose) innocent persons such as nuns and orphans.

They were brought to trial and convicted of whatever they were guilty of, and given the death penalty in cases where it was clear that they were a danger to society, exactly the same as the modern day death penalty.

So all the heretics who were executed vandalized religious buildings and/or killed people. No body was executed for simply believing in what the Church considered to be heretical beliefs and/or espousing those beliefs. Is that what you are claiming?

 

[Mannyfit75]

newbie,

The Crusades his another topic that ought to be put in another thread. I find it difficult for Christians not to support it. After all, the Crusades was a war against the Muslims. Who do you side, the Muslims?

 

[rr1213]

For those who want to deny the complicity of the Church in the inquisitions, including the fact that heretics were executed by the State with the full understanding and consent of the Church, the following excerpts from the article at the Catholic Encyclopedia are worth reading (emphasis added):

Gregory IX may be regarded as having had no share either directly or indirectly in the death of condemned heretics. Not so the succeeding popes. In the Bull “Ad exstirpanda” (1252) Innocent IV says:

When those adjudged guilty of heresy have been given up to the civil power by the bishop or his representative, or the Inquisition, the podestà or chief magistrate of the city shall take them at once, and shall, within five days at the most, execute the laws made against them.

Moreover, he directs that this Bull and the corresponding regulations of Frederick II be entered in every city among the municipal statutes under pain of excommunication, which was also visited on those who failed to execute both the papal and the imperial decrees. Nor could any doubt remain as to what civil regulations were meant, for the passages which ordered the burning of impenitent heretics were inserted in the papal decretals from the imperial constitutions “Commissis nobis” and “Inconsutibilem tunicam”… The civil authorities, therefore, were enjoined by the popes, under pain of excommunication to execute the legal sentences that condemned impenitent heretics to the stake. It is to he noted that excommunication itself was no trifle, for, if the person excommunicated did not free himself from excommunication within a year, he was held by the legislation of that period to be a heretic, and incurred all the penalties that affected heresy. …

The Spanish Inquisition deserves neither the exaggerated praise nor the equally exaggerated vilification often bestowed on it… However, the predominant ecclesiastical nature of the institution can hardly be doubted. The Holy See sanctioned the institution, accorded to the grand inquisitor canonical installation and therewith judicial authority concerning matters of faith, while from the grand inquisitor jurisdiction passed down to the subsidiary tribunals under his control. Joseph de Maistre introduced the thesis that the Spanish Inquisition was mostly a civil tribunal; formerly, however, theologians never questioned its ecclesiastical nature. Only thus, indeed, can one explain how the Popes always admitted appeals from it to the Holy See, called to themselves entire trials and that at any stage of the proceedings, exempted whole classes of believers from its jurisdiction, intervened in the legislation, deposed grand inquisitors, and so on.

newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm