M
Montalban
Guest
“But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,-a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles,-that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, “Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within.” And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me? "“I do know thee, the first-born of Satan.” Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, “A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.” There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.”
earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book3.html
That is, Polycarp, of Asia, also holds Apostolic authority, and his church too bears witness to Christianity
In short, you are attempting a selective quoting argument. When you see we Orthodox (who have always accepted a limited sesnse of ‘primacy’) remarking on this ‘primacy’ you quote it as if it supports your own idea of ‘primacy’. It doesn’t. The real proof is the actual operation of the early church, which I’ve mentioned time and again doesn’t seem to understand the Papacy as you wish; which must be why for the most part you ignore this part of the argument.
The examples from the church are many - Popes making statements; ruling on an issue. Instead of accepting this ruling the church meets, argues the case, and makes its own ruling, stating that the ruling is the ruling of the Council, not the Pope.
We could continue quoting from particular Church Fathers till the cows come home but it doesn’t take away from this fact. When certain Popes made rulings, they were to a point ignored, and (in the case of Pope St. Victor) rebuked (for having attempted to go beyond his jurisdiction).
You thus need to continue to ignore this point of historical context. And even your quotes miss the mark. It is in fact one of the very reasons that drew me towards Orthodoxy. The mis-use of quotes by Catholics lead me to conclude that if the evidence for the Papacy was so flimsy as to do this, then the whole argument could be thrown away.
A typical Catholic site makes many such claims
Claim: Rome is called the Apostolic throne. (Athanasius, Hist. Arian, ad Monach. n. 35).
globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/patriarchs.htm
Counter: As it was a See founded by an Apostle it is indeed Apostolic. It is not ‘the’ Apostolic throne, but one of many. Rome is referred to as ‘an’ Apostolic throne.
“because it was an Apostolical throne.”
Athanasius “History of the Arians” 35 quoted at ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-04/Npnf2-04-51.htm#P4861_1933128
earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book3.html
That is, Polycarp, of Asia, also holds Apostolic authority, and his church too bears witness to Christianity
In short, you are attempting a selective quoting argument. When you see we Orthodox (who have always accepted a limited sesnse of ‘primacy’) remarking on this ‘primacy’ you quote it as if it supports your own idea of ‘primacy’. It doesn’t. The real proof is the actual operation of the early church, which I’ve mentioned time and again doesn’t seem to understand the Papacy as you wish; which must be why for the most part you ignore this part of the argument.
The examples from the church are many - Popes making statements; ruling on an issue. Instead of accepting this ruling the church meets, argues the case, and makes its own ruling, stating that the ruling is the ruling of the Council, not the Pope.
We could continue quoting from particular Church Fathers till the cows come home but it doesn’t take away from this fact. When certain Popes made rulings, they were to a point ignored, and (in the case of Pope St. Victor) rebuked (for having attempted to go beyond his jurisdiction).
You thus need to continue to ignore this point of historical context. And even your quotes miss the mark. It is in fact one of the very reasons that drew me towards Orthodoxy. The mis-use of quotes by Catholics lead me to conclude that if the evidence for the Papacy was so flimsy as to do this, then the whole argument could be thrown away.
A typical Catholic site makes many such claims
Claim: Rome is called the Apostolic throne. (Athanasius, Hist. Arian, ad Monach. n. 35).
globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/patriarchs.htm
Counter: As it was a See founded by an Apostle it is indeed Apostolic. It is not ‘the’ Apostolic throne, but one of many. Rome is referred to as ‘an’ Apostolic throne.
“because it was an Apostolical throne.”
Athanasius “History of the Arians” 35 quoted at ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-04/Npnf2-04-51.htm#P4861_1933128