What was the source of Mohammad's Revelations?

[Eric_Hyom]

Hello Marybeloved;

This thread is not about Muslims, it’s about Islam.

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**If Mohammad pbuh, was given his revelations from the devil, this implies that a billion Muslims today are devil worshipers. If we judge the prophet in this way, then we judge his followers in the same way too. **

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Jesus will judge all people including the prophet and his followers. How can we possibly understand and judge in the way Jesus will judge?

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Yes I am a Catholic, and I believe that the church is the greater good way to God.

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Peace

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**Eric **

 

[GaryTaylor]

You seem to insist on this judgment. I fail to even consider its question since in truth, who is being judged??

You either believe in the Bible or you don’t. Who is GOD in the New Testament?

Isn’t the fundemental issue Biblical, in that satan chose “not to worship Jesus Christ”?

Doesn’t the same fact exist with Islam?

Who is suggesting Jihad, persecution of infidels and sinners, slavery, tax and death to those who will not follow Mohammad? So where is the real judgement coming from? Can this intorerance be defined simply as Jesus Christ as God? Of course not, the choice to kill Jews and destroy the Holy Land is real and you are watching it happen.

Maybe this would be easy to go through country by counrty?? Where does this land of the free exist in Islam? Where “all” are welcome to come in and worship God as they chose, with a Bible or as a sinner or whatever? Where is such a place?

You have to clearly explain this?? Somehow you have chosen Christianity as the identified problem in judgement. I fail to see this. The statement “if” is lacking. What are the facts? Jesus Christ is denied as God, as is the Trinity, as is any tolerance of Christians in Islamic countrys.

The fact of existing great muslims isn’t of question. We know they exist, we have seen them, met them, spoken to them. Yet when they chose not to stand in defense of Mohammad, they themselves are persecuted, thus silenced.

 

[Marybeloved]

**If Mohammad pbuh, was given his revelations from the devil, this implies that a billion Muslims today are devil worshipers. If we judge the prophet in this way, then we judge his followers in the same way too. **

I’m sorry, this is just wrong. Please explain your line of reasoning. The Church acknowledges that Muslims worship the true God, what in God’s name are you talking about??? The Church at the same time rejects in no uncertain terms Mohammad’s revelations…Do you think you know more than the Church? The Church is careful to speak positively only of Muslims, never of Mohammad, again what in God’s name are you talking about???

How do you understand these words of the Catechism
Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

And

***God has revealed himself fully by sending his own Son, in whom he has established his covenant for ever. The Son is his Father’s definitive Word; so there will be no further Revelation after him. ***

Mohammad said in the Qur’an that We are idolaters who worship three gods. He accused Jews of worshiping a man called Ezra as the son of God. He said God has no son, begets not, nor is he begotten, He said Jesus did not die on the Christ, that Mary conceived by an angel, not God. He said God intends to fill hell with Jews and Christians. He prophesied that a time would come when Muslims would kill all Jews and even the rocks would cry “a Jew is hiding behind me, come kill him!” He compelled Muslims to fight Jews and Christians until they converted to Islam or compel them to pay jizya and feel themselves subdued.

Since you’re so upset (you appear to be shouting in your bold) tell me Do you believe these revelations came from God??? Mohammed may not have met a demon, but what he did certainly came from the devil, any christian who purports to accept his revelation is denying Christ whom Mohammed said is nothing more than a prophet, did not die or resurrect.

Jesus will judge all people including the prophet and his followers. How can we possibly understand and judge in the way Jesus will judge?

I’m sorry, but again, we’re judging a religion that denies Christ while claiming for itself the authority of divine revelation. Not Muslims. The Church teaches that all people, not just Muslims, have a chance at salvation, through means only God knows, he hasn’t told us. That doesn’t mean that all religions are equally good just because they have some truth. Sorry if that upsets you.

 

[colmywaykurtz]

More than narcissism, I see it as a way to gain power, control … influence. There was gain for him, but you can perhaps see it as way to unite Arab people. Perhaps he felt that he needed a religion to unite the Arab tribes, instead of Christianity which he couldn’t mold to his needs (or perhaps didn’t fully understand).

This might be consistent with what was said about Ishmael in Genesis 16:12. Muhammad may indeed have been the apple that didn’t fall far from the tree…

 

[meedo]

My answer is “none of the above”.

I think he made up the whole thing as a means of amassing political and then eventually military power. It was very successful.

why would he amass political and military power?

 

[colmywaykurtz]

Insofar as Islam has an essence, it must be good because all essences are good.

But good is good. Many things are complicated, but this is simple. People who love the good will seek after it and find it. They will emphasize the good aspects of Islam and downplay or reinterpret the others. And you find a lot of Muslims doing just that, with no help from a lot of conservative Christians who bizarrely decree that only fundamentalist Muslims are "real Muslims."Edwin

Many historical accounts, and many contemporary journalistic accounts bear out what you say. In Descent Into Chaos, by Pakistani journalist Ahmed Rashid, Rashid notes how in the initial years of the American-NATO involvement in Afghanistan, the Afghans by-and-large welcomed foreign soldiers and aid workers with open arms.

Given the choice, they’d prefer NOT to support fundamentalist Islam and would prefer a society based on democratic values of openness and pluralism.

Such people represent a potentially rich harvest for the Christian faith. Christians should pray for these people, and have faith that divine Providence will one day guide them into the Christian fold.

 

[Aaronmc90]

I believe Muhommeds revelations where in the same category as Joseph Smiths, he may or may not have believed he was a prophet, there where times when he clearly created self serving revelations, or lied, but he may have felt justified in taking these liberties believing he was a prophet, or maybe not, but in any case, the quran and muhommeds sayings show clear signs of being of a particular human origin with no supernatural source, positive or negative, any more than the book of Mormon was, the main concern is the size of islam, and islams attempts at evangelizing to Christians to tear them away from Christ, which will lead them to the same fire muslims are headed for

Off topic but on that note

Well, as a non-denominational Christian, Catholics are most certainely saved by they’re belief in Jesus Christ, making the Catholic Church a true Church and a salvic one, and one of the oldest, and certainely the most followed Church of all time, in addition to a long tradition of Apostolic authority, it’s holy and sanctified…

Islam is in no way salvic, and those who follow it will abide in the fire, a muslims only hope of salvation is to accept Christ, be it become Catholic or no denomination at all, only by believing in Christ and his resurrection will muslims have hope of seeing God…

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Hello Marybeloved;

Since you’re so upset (you appear to be shouting in your bold)

I am so sorry for the bold text, and it was never my intention that it should be so, or to shout. I write my replies in ‘Word’ to check my spelling, then copy and paste. For some reason this forum converts my ordinary text to ‘bold,’ and increases the font size, mostly I remember to check and alter this, my apologies, my mistake, I overlooked it last time.

How do you understand these words of the Catechism
Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment,

I agree and I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I believe that Jesus is God the Son, and I believe in his death and resurrection, this is at the heart of my faith. I do not follow the teachings of Islam.

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as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

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The church can be very forthright in its teachings, but as I understand, the church does not state that the teachings of Islam were revealed by the devil.

Scriptures often accuse people of worshipping false idols, and I sense that these false idols are greed, lust, power, and anger. These are the false gods that occupy our thoughts and actions; they can seem to be more important than God.

Blessings and peace be with you and your family.

Eric

 

[schaick]

…, what do you think was the source of Mohammad’s spiritual/religious experiences?
…
So…any thoughts?

Mohammad exhibited all the signs of Temporal Lobe Seizures:
Hallucinations
A sudden sense of unprovoked fear
A deja vu experience
The sudden occurrence of a strange odor or taste
Loss of awareness of surroundings
Staring
Lip smacking
Repeated swallowing or chewing
Unusual finger movements, such as picking motions
Epigastric sensations - A rising sensation in the abdomen
An out-of-body feeling
Sweating
Flushed face
Rapid heart rate

books.google.com/books?id=bDOlAjrkZl8C&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=hadiths+and+temporal+lobe+seizures&source=bl&ots=-O9zw7k7s9&sig=nrP3My-MFLXl48qxE-bLRgW3wAI&hl=en&ei=H2FJTZz6LoqugQehidUl&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

The first to suspect that Muhammad had epilepsy was Halima or her husband, when Muhammad was five ears old. Theophanes, 192 [752-817] a Byzantine historian was the first scholar to claim that Muhammad suffered from epilepsy.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 1, Number 2:
Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah’s Apostle “O Allah’s Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?” Allah’s Apostle replied, “Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes ’ off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says.” 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the **Sweat dropping from his forehead **(as the Inspiration was over).

The “angel” did not immediately introduce himself: Did Gabriel of the Bible frighten people that he was leaving a message with, wasn’t he usually comforting?
Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:
Narrated 'Aisha: …
The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and **pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. **
…
Then Allah’s Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, “Cover me! Cover me!” They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, “I fear that something may happen to me.”
…

Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 1, Number 4:
Narrated Said bin Jubair: Ibn 'Abbas in the explanation of the Statement of Allah. 'Move not your tongue concerning (the Quran) to make haste therewith." (75.16) Said “Allah’s Apostle used to bear the revelation with great trouble and used to move his lips (quickly) with the Inspiration.”

Ibn Sa’d says, "at the moment of inspiration, anxiety pressed upon the Prophet, and his countenance was troubled.

Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 660:
Narrated Aisha: Magic was worked on Allah’s Apostle so that he used to think that he had sexual relations with his wives while he **actually had not **(Sufyan said: That is the hardest kind of magic as it has such an effect). Then one day he said, "O ‘Aisha do you know that Allah has instructed me concerning the matter I asked Him about? Two men came to me and one of them sat near my head and the other sat near my feet. The one near my head asked the other. What is wrong with this man?’ The latter replied the is under the effect of magic The first one asked, Who has worked magic on him?’

Bukhari, Volume 9, Number 111:
…
Then Allah’s Apostle returned with the Inspiration, his neck muscles twitching with terror till he entered upon Khadija and said, “Cover me! Cover me!”

Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345:
Narrated Abu Dhar:
Allah’s Apostle said, "While I was at Mecca the roof of my house was opened and Gabriel descended, opened my chest, and washed it with Zam-zam water. Then he brought a golden tray full of wisdom and faith and having poured its contents into my chest, he closed it. Then he took my hand and ascended with me to the nearest heaven, when I reached the nearest heaven, Gabriel said to the gatekeeper of the heaven, ‘Open (the gate).’ The gatekeeper asked, ‘Who is it?’ Gabriel answered: ‘Gabriel.’ He asked, ‘Is there anyone with you?’ Gabriel replied, ‘Yes, Muhammad I is with me.’ He asked, ‘Has he been called?’ Gabriel said, ‘Yes.’ So the gate was opened and we went over the nearest heaven and there we saw a man sitting with some people on his right and some on his left. When he looked towards his right, he laughed and when he looked toward his left he wept. Then he said, ‘Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.’ I asked Gabriel, ‘Who is he?’ He replied, ‘He is Adam and the people on his right and left are the souls of his offspring. Those on his right are the people of Paradise and those on his left are the people of Hell and when he looks towards his right he laughs and when he looks towards his left he weeps.’

There is only one being that would try to deny the truth about Jesus’ crucifixion.

 

[Marybeloved]

Hello Marybeloved;

I am so sorry for the bold text, and it was never my intention that it should be so, or to shout. I write my replies in ‘Word’ to check my spelling, then copy and paste. For some reason this forum converts my ordinary text to ‘bold,’ and increases the font size, mostly I remember to check and alter this, my apologies, my mistake, I overlooked it last time.

I agree and I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I believe that Jesus is God the Son, and I believe in his death and resurrection, this is at the heart of my faith. I do not follow the teachings of Islam.

The church can be very forthright in its teachings, but as I understand, the church does not state that the teachings of Islam were revealed by the devil.

Scriptures often accuse people of worshipping false idols, and I sense that these false idols are greed, lust, power, and anger. These are the false gods that occupy our thoughts and actions; they can seem to be more important than God.

Blessings and peace be with you and your family.

Eric

Blessings and Peace to you and your family as well, my Friend

 

[Marybeloved]

Mohammad exhibited all the signs of Temporal Lobe Seizures:
Hallucinations
A sudden sense of unprovoked fear
A deja vu experience
The sudden occurrence of a strange odor or taste
Loss of awareness of surroundings
Staring
Lip smacking
Repeated swallowing or chewing
Unusual finger movements, such as picking motions
Epigastric sensations - A rising sensation in the abdomen
An out-of-body feeling
Sweating
Flushed face
Rapid heart rate

books.google.com/books?id=bDOlAjrkZl8C&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=hadiths+and+temporal+lobe+seizures&source=bl&ots=-O9zw7k7s9&sig=nrP3My-MFLXl48qxE-bLRgW3wAI&hl=en&ei=H2FJTZz6LoqugQehidUl&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

The first to suspect that Muhammad had epilepsy was Halima or her husband, when Muhammad was five ears old. Theophanes, 192 [752-817] a Byzantine historian was the first scholar to claim that Muhammad suffered from epilepsy. …There is only one being that would try to deny the truth about Jesus’ crucifixion.

Intriguing! And yes, ultimately, only one kind of being would have such an interest (They are legion, you know ) - Question is, how did he do it? I guess your own thinking is no.5.

 

[PbloPicasso]

1. is my response.

 

[LUV4ALL]

Mohamed received some of his teachings from various Gnostic religions. For example, the idea that Jesus was not crucified on the cross but was replaced by someone else derives from Gnostics. This is a teaching that dates back prior to Mohamed. He was not the first to come up with the idea.

This theory is false and is prescribed by the majority sect of Islam (sunnis)

The belief of one sect out fo the 73 sects of Islam is that it was in fact Jesus on the cross but he survived crucifiction and escaped the city to fullfill his mission to find the lost ten tribes of israel and save them. Jesus was worth alive more than dead or physically ascended to the heavens at such an early age. Clearly he had a lot to offer and so he did travelling the rest of his life, increasing his knowledge, preaching and living out a full life. Evidence of this exists in the Bible, in the Quran, in Ancient bhuddist texts as well as other texts and in archealogical envidence as well as the actual tomb which has been recently found and many more.

This is the belief of the Ahmadi sect of islam.

 

[LUV4ALL]

What I understand is Mohammad had a revelation presented by the angel Gabriel. Mohammand would not accept it and thought it from the devil. Gabriel beat him. According to our teachings, angels are the servants of man and do not beat men so this is suspect. Mohammand goes to his wife and tells her he thinks he’s being visited by an evil force. She tells him to discuss this with her uncle who was a bishop of some church maybe a Gnostic. The uncle tells him to pay attention because the uncle believes this revelation presented by the supposed angel Gabriel is from God.
How different things would be if the uncle confirmed Mohammad’s suspicions. Also if Christ established the one true Church why would God start another 600 years later?

Gabriel did not beat Mohammad contrary to your preversive statement. Christ did not establish a church, he provided teachings of God and preached them all over the world. Jesus Christ prophecised the coming of Mohammad in the Bible btw.

 

[LUV4ALL]

Persecution of the Jews/Christianity has never ended. Its started in Egypt, to Romes Circus and if last century is any indication of the future, then it will get darker before there is light. Much to my amazement the desecration of Gods Church actually seems to bring joy to a portion of the world.

There is no silent campaign. It is fact, Jesus was not the physical Son of God. Contray to popular Muslim belief, Jesus Christ survived the cross and travelled eastwards fullfilling his mission to find the lost ten tribes of Israel and save them. He offered much more value in this manner than he could have ascending to heavan physically at such an early age.

 

[LUV4ALL]

Hello to you, Eric

But don’t you see, Eric, that you’re not applying your “test” consistently? Before you sought to judge Islam by its good fruit, now you don’t want to judge it by its evil fruit.

To the comparison with Christianity, I honestly don’t see how it’s the same. Christians may have used religion to advance political and nationalist aims, to the great harm of many people as well as to the church herself. That’s why the church now strictly enforces separation of her clergy from any political business. She has learned a difficult lesson, which is…to stray from the christian mandate into other business, to “join the world” rather than strive to evangelize it is the definition of disaster because rather than following the Lord’s teaching and example as well as that o the Apostles, churchmen soon become political leaders and commanders of armed forces and are forced to abandon the sole Rule of the Christian (Jesus Christ) in their business in order to be shrewd military and political leaders.

Now Islam may have also its fair share of “churchmen” who use religion for political, nationalist and military purposes, but I ask you…Where is it’s Jesus Christ? Where is the example of uncompromising total love and tolerance necessary to aid it in correcting its sins and striving for peace? They have only Mohammed and his example, so tell me how they’re going to get rid of the weeds and retain only the wheat.

You are very right. Islam is being used by many people in corrupt mosques and governments for political and fiscal gains. But to associate such acts with the faith of Islam is nonsensical. Muslims do not just have Mohammad as an example. There is much for you to learn about the Islamic faith and I would love to address it.

 

[LUV4ALL]

As for the topic of the original post, I don’t know if Mohammad was sincere or trying to pull a fast one. He seemed content to live a life of being Khadijah’s devoted husband so I think he was more likely sincere.

As to what he saw or thought he saw he may have been schizophrenic or had some other mental condition that cause one to hallucinate or hear voices. Also the environment is very dry and food was scarce, he could have been dehydrated and hungry which can also cause one to see and hear things, especially in a desert environment where all kinds of different mirages are common.

He may have had an episode or several episodes of hypnogogic or hypnopompic hallucinations (vivid, sometimes near full-sensory “waking dreams” that can occur when someone is waking up or falling asleep. They can continue after someone has been awake for a while).

Just tossing that out there.

Your attempt at diagnosing Mohammad’s “condition” is speculation at best.

 

[LUV4ALL]

My friend!! I’m afraid my intellect is nowhere as sophisticated as yours evidently is, much as I may pretend otherwise …You’ll have to slow down a bit with the deep philosophy. In any case I have to read everything you’ve written here slooooowly, if I can hope to answer any of it properly.

True…But the fact that it can and has been misused doesn’t mean it’s never true. Certainly Islam flatly denies all the fundamentals that define the phenomenon called Christianity, of which I am a believer. Our own scripture warns us of false prophets who are to come after christ whose chief distinction (sign) would be the very denial that we find in Islam. Catholics can hardly be blamed for being skeptical of the “good” in Islam and see it simply as a clever ploy to veil the arrow shot at the very heart of their faith!

I understand that all being is good and that evil is a privation of being, so we are good here:thumbsup:. I’m still not sure how it relates to the discussion?? I don’t think I said that “the devil” option (which, by the way, I haven’t said is my own personal leaning) is about the Devil creating/giving being to anything.

What I said was that the Devil tells lies…and his strategy is to hide it in some truth so that it will not be out-rightly rejected…which is very shrewd on his part. I don’t think that’s any thing revolutionary. The saints have said it for 2 millenia. The mystic Saints and doctors, in particular…(And who better to consult on matters mystical and supernatural than they?)…all warn us to be weary of the supernatural experiences for the same reason that the Devil is very clever and no one knows when they are being deceived because he always entices spiritual pride and never makes it obvious. That’s why they all advise us to ignore those occurrences and depend entirely on sound spiritual direction to avoid the devil’s deceptions.

The Church also acknowledges this in practice with the skepticism she demonstrates in dealing with cases of claimed apparitions and other supernatural phenomena. She uses a rigorous system of checking not just the scientific issues involved but the theology taught and will reject entirely any such occurrence where the theology (which is certainly never as deviant from Christian orthodoxy as Islam is) contradicts the truths of Christian faith. Both the scripture and the Church warn that the Devil comes as an angel of light, and this is the reason the church uses to explain her caution toward claimed apparitions. So I don’t think that acknowledging that the Devil does operate this way in deceptions, mixing some truth with error in order to make it palatable to the “deceived” is saying anything that does not agree with Christian faith and tradition. Besides, it was Satan in the Desert who quoted truth right out of scripture to our lord, wasn’t it? And his purposes there were certainly completely evil and meant to deceive.

Mary you have a very skewed perception of Islam. I bet you were not aware of the instances in the Bible where Jesus had prophecised the coming of Mohammad. I noticed you are quick to proclaim you are christian and anti islam which is respectable but it serves no purpose in your argument and that kind of sentiment disqualifies you to gain any valuble life lesson. Trying to keep an open mind and heart about ideas and concepts that are not familiar to you is an awesome suggestion and there is plenty that you might have not heard about Islam that I am willing to provide you with. So please tell em what is it that you disagree most with Islam?

 

[aicirt]

Mary you have a very skewed perception of Islam. I bet you were not aware of the instances in the Bible where Jesus had prophecised the coming of Mohammad. I noticed you are quick to proclaim you are christian and anti islam which is respectable but it serves no purpose in your argument and that kind of sentiment disqualifies you to gain any valuble life lesson. Trying to keep an open mind and heart about ideas and concepts that are not familiar to you is an awesome suggestion and there is plenty that you might have not heard about Islam that I am willing to provide you with. So please tell em what is it that you disagree most with Islam?

Where in the Bible did Jesus prophecise the coming of Mohammad? How do you interpret Matthew 16:18?

 

[Marybeloved]

Mary you have a very skewed perception of Islam. I bet you were not aware of the instances in the Bible where Jesus had prophecised the coming of Mohammad. I noticed you are quick to proclaim you are christian and anti islam which is respectable but it serves no purpose in your argument and that kind of sentiment disqualifies you to gain any valuble life lesson. Trying to keep an open mind and heart about ideas and concepts that are not familiar to you is an awesome suggestion and there is plenty that you might have not heard about Islam that I am willing to provide you with. So please tell em what is it that you disagree most with Islam?

My friend, do you have difficulty reading and understanding posts? You’ve quoted a debate between me and another poster who was trying to show that the 5th options were invalid from the Christian perspective, which I refuted. All the options are perfectly valid. This thread is about what Christians and other non-muslims who reject Muhammad’s claimed revelations think may have been the real source of the supposed revelations.

I don’t know what you mean “anti-Islam”. What I am is a Catholic, clearly advertized in my profile. Our faith rejects any claimed “revelations” after Christ, purporting to add to his revelation- Did you not read the OP? So of course I disbelieve Mohammad:shrug:. Not just because of my faith but because his claims are simply not true:shrug:. Why should that surprise you? Do you expect all people to automatically accept the claims of your religion? You ask what I disagree with? Please read the first post! Your religion is essentially a denial of Christ. The Jesus in your Quran is a stranger to us. We do not accept your Prophet or your book or his hadith- That’s it. And I have no idea which Bible you’re referring to, Ours warns us to steer clear of false prophets who deny The Son of God.

If you would like to debate Islam’s truth, please take it somewhere else. There are enough threads here at CAF about it. This is for people who already reject Muhammad’s claims to prophet-hood and are curious about the alternative sources for them.