C
colmywaykurtz
Guest
What instances?
- Status
J
jakasaki
Guest
So - I gather that you are an Ahmadi…
Don’t want to derail the thread - but don’t Ahmadi’s believe that Jesus traveled to India and died there at the age of 92.
They claim that his tomb stone / grave is there right next to The Blessed Mother Mary and that Ahmadi’s visit their grave site.
Also, don’t the Ahmadi’s have their own prophet from the 1800’s which created this movement - therefore - making mohamads statement false since he claimed he is the seal of all prophets…???
BTW - Welcome to CAF…
J
jakasaki
Guest
I bet you a chocolate cake that they will quote the “paraclete” verse and also take verses from Song of Songs - Solomon
M
Marybeloved
Guest
Quite funny that you should say so. I’ve just read another thread that says the same- That some messiah person in the 1800’s said that Jesus went to India with our Lady and died and was burried there! Have no idea where these strange beliefs come from! And by the way, aren’t Muslims forbidden from believing in other messengers after Muhammad?- Or is that just one of the interpretations:shrug:So - I gather that you are an Ahmadi…
Don’t want to derail the thread - but don’t Ahmadi’s believe that Jesus traveled to India and died there at the age of 92.
They claim that his tomb stone / grave is there right next to The Blessed Mother Mary and that Ahmadi’s visit their grave site.
Also, don’t the Ahmadi’s have their own prophet from the 1800’s which created this movement - therefore - making mohamads statement false since he claimed he is the seal of all prophets…???
BTW - Welcome to CAF…
J
jakasaki
Guest
Good morning Mary ~
Only the Ahmadi’s believe that…
They also do believe that mohamad was a prophet of God, but how do they explain that mohamad claimed to be the seal of prophets and then all of the sudden, this new prophet comes along in the 1800’s and creates the Ahmadi movement.
LOV4ALL is the first Ahmadi poster we’ve had here in over 2 years.
We had 2 guys who were Ahmadi debating the same stuff as LOV4ALL - but are no longer members of CAF.
L
LUV4ALL
Guest
No mary muslims are encouraged to believe and understand the good things from other faiths. And muslims believe in jesus, moses, adam and all the other prophets before Mohammad, shows how much you know about Islam.
J
jakasaki
Guest
Yes we know all of this… it’s repeated on here all of the time from muslims…
But the Isa in the koran is not Our Lord Jesus Christ…
And Adam is not a prophet under Judaism and Christianity.
Only Islam made Adam a prophet
C
colmywaykurtz
Guest
We’re still waiting to hear your “instances” of Muhammad being predicted in the Bible, LUV4ALL.
P
PumpkinSeed
Guest
Yea but he obviously got drunk with power. He enjoyed it. Knowing he could kill whoever he wanted if they didn’t agree with him obviously went to his head. He got clouded with it. He was high with power.
P
PumpkinSeed
Guest
With fear of death. If they do not do as told, they get beaten or killed. God wants us to chose him out of free will, not be forced to. Mohammads teachings are disgusting and immoral.
T
Trebor135
Guest
The Qur’an would seem to be too complex for an individual of Muhammad’s standing to compose on his own out of a lust for power. But given that poetry was the primary–in fact only–real form of entertainment available in contemporary Arabia, Muhammad may have known others who could act as his assistants, editors, or ghostwriters, if you will, in putting together this notable work of literature.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Muhammad originally belonged to the clan of the Koraish, who were the guardians of the Kabba “black stone” that was originally dedicated to the one supreme being, which harbored over 300 idols of all shapes and forms by Arabs.
The Koraish clan profitted by the great fairs and pilgrimages, but Muhammads family was poor, and left him an orphan.
Muhammad married into money and became a man of wealth and social standing.
Paganism was on the decline in Arabia due to strong colonies of Jews and Christian heretics some Nicene Christians scattered throughout.
The Hanifs adopted both Jewish and Christian doctrines into their monotheist religion, who abstained from wine and other austerities.
Muhammad through his uncle Waraka influenced him in the Hanifs. While practicing his solitary contemplation. Muhammad claims he was commissioned by God through the angel Gabriel to destroy Idolatry and restore the true worship of God.
It wasn’t until the wealthy and influential Abu-Bekr declared belief in Muhammad’s revelations and called his new founded religion “Islam” and its followers Muslims.
I find Muhammads quick rise to wealth and high social standing to be indirect opposition to Jesus of Nazareth and the Old testament prophets like John the baptist who never concerned themselves with such wealth or social standing. If anything John the baptist proclaimed it was not he they were looking for, and Jesus told those whom he healed and blessed, not to tell know one.
Money, Power, Politics of Muhammad used Islam to rid the Arabs of idols and to submitt to Islam’s deity, while he conquered them politically. Net result, we have a montheistic religion uniting a people motivated and supported by political powers, mixed together as one equals “Islam”.
What helped Muhammad’s movement were the large numbers of Jews who informed the Arabs that God was sending a messiah ambassador into the world. Pilgrims from Mecca brought the news to the Medinas ultimately that God has sent an Arab prophet like themselves among them with revelations in their own tongue named Muhammad.
Muhammad by fair and foul means conquered Mecca and his revenge on his own clan Koraish and Medina. From here the Political sword in the name of Islam has never ceased in peace.
The Koraish clan profitted by the great fairs and pilgrimages, but Muhammads family was poor, and left him an orphan.
Muhammad married into money and became a man of wealth and social standing.
Paganism was on the decline in Arabia due to strong colonies of Jews and Christian heretics some Nicene Christians scattered throughout.
The Hanifs adopted both Jewish and Christian doctrines into their monotheist religion, who abstained from wine and other austerities.
Muhammad through his uncle Waraka influenced him in the Hanifs. While practicing his solitary contemplation. Muhammad claims he was commissioned by God through the angel Gabriel to destroy Idolatry and restore the true worship of God.
It wasn’t until the wealthy and influential Abu-Bekr declared belief in Muhammad’s revelations and called his new founded religion “Islam” and its followers Muslims.
I find Muhammads quick rise to wealth and high social standing to be indirect opposition to Jesus of Nazareth and the Old testament prophets like John the baptist who never concerned themselves with such wealth or social standing. If anything John the baptist proclaimed it was not he they were looking for, and Jesus told those whom he healed and blessed, not to tell know one.
Money, Power, Politics of Muhammad used Islam to rid the Arabs of idols and to submitt to Islam’s deity, while he conquered them politically. Net result, we have a montheistic religion uniting a people motivated and supported by political powers, mixed together as one equals “Islam”.
What helped Muhammad’s movement were the large numbers of Jews who informed the Arabs that God was sending a messiah ambassador into the world. Pilgrims from Mecca brought the news to the Medinas ultimately that God has sent an Arab prophet like themselves among them with revelations in their own tongue named Muhammad.
Muhammad by fair and foul means conquered Mecca and his revenge on his own clan Koraish and Medina. From here the Political sword in the name of Islam has never ceased in peace.
T
Trebor135
Guest
I’d like to add the following: it seems strange, indeed implausible, to posit that an ordinary individual would take the time and effort to compose a lengthy work of poetry, whether on his own or with the involvement of others, when the chances of his gaining enough influence over the community to achieve political and military dominance would be so slim as to render the notion as unrealistic as the hallucinations of a… hashish addict. (Hyperbole alert!)
M
Marybeloved
Guest
But the Quran wasn’t composed in one sitting or even one long project. It is made up of simple verses that were “revealed” to Mohammed throughout 23 years. The verses were also very convenient- being revealed when a question needed to be answered or something had happened needing resolution etc Plus verses/suras on stories in wide circulation in Arabia at that time, from the Jewish traditions and the Christian apocryphal books.
I find nothing at all extraordinary about the composition of the Quran. If I write in my diary every day, or a few times a week for 20 years, you can be sure that I’ll have something much bigger than the Quran at the end of it all.
Considering that poetry was the “diary” of those times, to capture any significant or meaningful thing, my diary (if I was a 7th Century Arab) would be another Quran. There is a reason the Quraish found Mohammed’s verses that he recited to the crowds to be utterly unimpressive. There was even a man who would follow him around and after Muhammad finished reciting his verses, the man would compose his own verses on the spot to challenge Mohammed and ask “Tell me, what makes his verses better than mine?” There’s nothing extraordinary at all about Mohammed’s 23 year compilation of verses called “the Quran” except that his followers memorized them as divine revelation when others were just poems. If Muhammad hadn’t died when he did, he would have simply continued to give verses as he went and the Quran would have been much bigger than it is.
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Outside chance it was a good or evil encounter really isn’t of issue. For he did not walk out possessed or Blessed, with the completed act of good or evil taking on a completed effect. Impossible to conclude from later events.
We know of no chronological occurence of acts which occured in the cave. No one witnessed this! We know Mohammads state of being “after” which is directly related to this event. Actually this in many regards is no different than those who have experienced apparitions to some degree. There was no psychiatric evaluation completed after this event. Only a sketchy account, some consistant with an Apparition others a projected fear by those who were there. The early account comes from a Byzantine Doctor who evaluated whatever evidence he had at his disposal.
No different if I ran into your home visably shaken, heart racing, and exclaimed I just saw a apparition of an Angel. Your mind must process your feelings, and mine, by the only logic/reason which you know. Thus your summary is only based on your knowledge. If it starts with a premise of fear which apparently it did. Then you became subjected to a thought/feeling instead of seeing the objective truth. The doctor didn’t do this in his conclusion.
Fact is we do not know, because no one qualified was their, so any “opinion” may be used from this point. Again the Doctors is most realistic.
The question which is not really sufficently answered here is the true reality as to what actually took place in this isolated event with no witness, or after. But we can conclude SOMETHING happened there, and as the story unfolds so does the truth and reality.
What also is the history of spiritual happening previous to this with Mohammed, only indicates more problems, pagan, and a lack of education. The constant strive to be self suffeciant by his own will, and against all others. And often by corrupt means of using women for personal gain and all other accounts of petty and serious crimes. Mixed with a deluted version at every step of the way of Christianity and Judaism which somehow resulted as it evolved as a NEW religion. So then can we not conclude a lie became the truth? Most definately at some point it did in fact happen. And there is no historic evidence of ISLAM before Mohammad. Its starts with Mohammad and the Five Pillars are used from his family.
To look at the actual signed document by Mohammed at St Catherines in Egypt. Its actually very coherant, articulate and obviously written in a sound mind. However the document is also not written by Mohammed, only dictated in fairness. However, for Mohammed to stamp the letter with approval he certainly would have agree’d with its content.
No, I see there’s a constant conflict in Mohammads mind which escalates just as evil does or good does. The choice of good and evil, wrong or right would still have been a constant conflict in Mohammads mind.
The tradition in Catholic moral theology evaluates the morality of acts according to a threefold test that looks at …
It is then “objectively” wrong, regardless of the intent of the actor, or the circumstances. Such acts can never be morally licit. This does not mean, however, that such acts are always greater evils, than those acts that are evil by intent or circumstance.
When its stated by their fruits they will be known. What In fact are these fruits as they connect the end result of “the act”? Show me the GOOD:shrug: I see evil “acts”.
Where does this cycle of intent/cirumstance bring Love, Peace, Religious Freedom and the Sanctity of Live in the middle east as the final ACT? Where is this place? And thus the same question I always ask, “WHERE” has this good/God act actually occured?
There are isolated times and places in history which I could name which Islam has existed and co-inhabited areas with Christians and Jews. However, it was/is still a specific instant in time and not the end “act” Nevertheless for any significant period of time has Good prevailed? The underlying factor always came back to the learned behavior instilled by the teaching of Quran/Hadith in hate, lack of compassion, unwillingness to accept women as equal, let alone infidels, sinners, or any other individual which doesn’t fit into the strick paradigm of the Social/Political/Religion called Islam. It seems to me the fact that good muslims exist, is contrary to the issue and an indication of God not the teachings of Mohammad.
Even in most recent situations where sanity and the sanctity of life has prevailed. The opportunity of real democracy has existed. Islam has chosen to revert to a the Social/Political/Religious confines of what cannot be called GOD or GOOD. In a forced, imposed moral-ethical teaching which is “flawed” even if you eliminate God from the equation and rely on the Hippocratic Oath and modern psychology, I fail to see conducive moral behavior here.
This level of Social/Political is where the confusion and mascarade occurs.
We know of no chronological occurence of acts which occured in the cave. No one witnessed this! We know Mohammads state of being “after” which is directly related to this event. Actually this in many regards is no different than those who have experienced apparitions to some degree. There was no psychiatric evaluation completed after this event. Only a sketchy account, some consistant with an Apparition others a projected fear by those who were there. The early account comes from a Byzantine Doctor who evaluated whatever evidence he had at his disposal.
No different if I ran into your home visably shaken, heart racing, and exclaimed I just saw a apparition of an Angel. Your mind must process your feelings, and mine, by the only logic/reason which you know. Thus your summary is only based on your knowledge. If it starts with a premise of fear which apparently it did. Then you became subjected to a thought/feeling instead of seeing the objective truth. The doctor didn’t do this in his conclusion.
Fact is we do not know, because no one qualified was their, so any “opinion” may be used from this point. Again the Doctors is most realistic.
The question which is not really sufficently answered here is the true reality as to what actually took place in this isolated event with no witness, or after. But we can conclude SOMETHING happened there, and as the story unfolds so does the truth and reality.
What also is the history of spiritual happening previous to this with Mohammed, only indicates more problems, pagan, and a lack of education. The constant strive to be self suffeciant by his own will, and against all others. And often by corrupt means of using women for personal gain and all other accounts of petty and serious crimes. Mixed with a deluted version at every step of the way of Christianity and Judaism which somehow resulted as it evolved as a NEW religion. So then can we not conclude a lie became the truth? Most definately at some point it did in fact happen. And there is no historic evidence of ISLAM before Mohammad. Its starts with Mohammad and the Five Pillars are used from his family.
To look at the actual signed document by Mohammed at St Catherines in Egypt. Its actually very coherant, articulate and obviously written in a sound mind. However the document is also not written by Mohammed, only dictated in fairness. However, for Mohammed to stamp the letter with approval he certainly would have agree’d with its content.
No, I see there’s a constant conflict in Mohammads mind which escalates just as evil does or good does. The choice of good and evil, wrong or right would still have been a constant conflict in Mohammads mind.
The tradition in Catholic moral theology evaluates the morality of acts according to a threefold test that looks at …
- the act itself
- the intent of the actor
- the circumstances surrounding the act
It is then “objectively” wrong, regardless of the intent of the actor, or the circumstances. Such acts can never be morally licit. This does not mean, however, that such acts are always greater evils, than those acts that are evil by intent or circumstance.
When its stated by their fruits they will be known. What In fact are these fruits as they connect the end result of “the act”? Show me the GOOD:shrug: I see evil “acts”.
Where does this cycle of intent/cirumstance bring Love, Peace, Religious Freedom and the Sanctity of Live in the middle east as the final ACT? Where is this place? And thus the same question I always ask, “WHERE” has this good/God act actually occured?
There are isolated times and places in history which I could name which Islam has existed and co-inhabited areas with Christians and Jews. However, it was/is still a specific instant in time and not the end “act” Nevertheless for any significant period of time has Good prevailed? The underlying factor always came back to the learned behavior instilled by the teaching of Quran/Hadith in hate, lack of compassion, unwillingness to accept women as equal, let alone infidels, sinners, or any other individual which doesn’t fit into the strick paradigm of the Social/Political/Religion called Islam. It seems to me the fact that good muslims exist, is contrary to the issue and an indication of God not the teachings of Mohammad.
Even in most recent situations where sanity and the sanctity of life has prevailed. The opportunity of real democracy has existed. Islam has chosen to revert to a the Social/Political/Religious confines of what cannot be called GOD or GOOD. In a forced, imposed moral-ethical teaching which is “flawed” even if you eliminate God from the equation and rely on the Hippocratic Oath and modern psychology, I fail to see conducive moral behavior here.
This level of Social/Political is where the confusion and mascarade occurs.
H
hamba2han
Guest
The words contained in both the Qur’an and the ahadith are written in Arabic and originated from the lips of the same man.But the Quran wasn’t composed in one sitting or even one long project. It is made up of simple verses that were “revealed” to Mohammed throughout 23 years. The verses were also very convenient- being revealed when a question needed to be answered or something had happened needing resolution etc Plus verses/suras on stories in wide circulation in Arabia at that time, from the Jewish traditions and the Christian apocryphal books.
I find nothing at all extraordinary about the composition of the Quran. If I write in my diary every day, or a few times a week for 20 years, you can be sure that I’ll have something much bigger than the Quran at the end of it all.
If Muhammad hadn’t died when he did, he would have simply continued to give verses as he went and the Quran would have been much bigger than it is.
And so, those who doubt the uniqueness of the inimitable language used in the Qur’an need to ask themselves this question:
Why is the form and structure of the language used in the ahadith so very different from that of the Qur’an?
M
Marria89
Guest
Mohamed could not read nor write ,so He couldnt copy anything from anywhere
Also the jews asked him of many stories in their books that Quran revealed true stories with small details that are not in any book , and in new other stories that they were in desaccord (different opinions between them) and Quran answereed them the turth of the stories they were in debate about them
So how can He made up a truth that is not from any book,
Also the jews asked him of many stories in their books that Quran revealed true stories with small details that are not in any book , and in new other stories that they were in desaccord (different opinions between them) and Quran answereed them the turth of the stories they were in debate about them
So how can He made up a truth that is not from any book,
M
Marria89
Guest
Accusing Mohamed of epilepsy or deases or mental or demons, whatever doesnt affect him in any way, during his life ahe was also accused of many things but what they couldnt accuse him of is to lie as He was known before revelance 40 years known as the truthfull and the honest (these was his nicknames ) as he never said a lie or did an infidality ,even the jews put their goods in his house to save them
Lets see what did non muslims say about Mohamed :
Lets see what did non muslims say about Mohamed :
M
Marria89
Guest
George Bernard Shaw said about him: “He must be called the Savior of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it much needed peace and happiness”. (The Genuine Islam, Singapore, Vol.1, No.8, 1936)
M
Marria89
Guest
Mahatma Gandhi, speaking on the character of Muhammad (PBUH) says in ‘YOUNG INDIA’: “I wanted to know the best of one who holds today undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind…I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet’s biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life.”*
- Status