What was wrong with the Mass of St. Pius V?

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When discussing the Sacred Rites of the Church, the terms “right” and “wrong” are inappropriate in my view.

The Missal promulgated by Pope Pius V in the late 16th century and which was in use until 1969 is a product of its times. It was an era in which illiteracy was still widespread. These rites, therefore, do not presume the need for understanding on the cognitive level. They also presume that there is a wide separation between the baptized and the ordained. The prevailing theology of the priesthood at the time was that like OT priests they were to offer sacrifice on behalf of the faithful. Not just any sacrifice, but the very sacrifice of Christ “re-presented” (not repeated) through the hands and words and gestures of the priest. The people were obligated to attend and “hear” the Mass which was being offered on their behalf. They were neither required nor expected to participate in the prayers of the Mass. Any needed participation could be fulfilled by altar boys, or, in the case of more solemn celebrations (“High Mass”) by other members of the clergy.

Pope Pius X, in the early 20th century, recognized the need for greater participation by the faithful and recommended two alternative ways to celebrate the Mass: the missa cantata (sung Mass) and the dialogue Mass. In the former, choirs and even members of the congregation could be taught and sing the Ordinary parts of the Mass (the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Peter Noster, Agnus Dei). In the latter, the congregation was instructed to pray aloud the Ordinary parts of the Mass. These forms were regarded as optional and so they were adopted only where a bishop or priest was aware of them and might introduce them in their parish. There was no change in the Missal or the rubrics just the manner in which the people took part.

In the more common “low Mass” the emphasis on the scriptures and preaching were minimal. The priest–with the exception of the altar boy responses–did everything in the Mass. There weren’t even any readers of God’s word. There were choir members for High Masses who sang beautifully (sometimes and in some places) and who sometimes overpowered the Mass.

For many people, participating in Mass consisted of saying private prayers like the rosary or from prayer books and holy cards of various kinds. Because churches had so many statues and other images–including those in stained glass windows–people’s eyes could dart about hopefully to be inspired until the bells rang. Why bells? To call the people’s attention to the altar at the time of the consecration of the bread and wine. The priest had his back to the wall–and face to the east–and in an intense moment of fervor would hold first the consecrated Host high over his head so the people could gaze at it momentarily (actually many people had their faces buried in their hands), then the Cup of Christ’s Blood in a similar gesture. All the while bells were rung to ensure that all were aware of this sacred moment.

During this “Tridentine” rite, the priest would continue praying the Mass while the collection was being taken up. There was no need for people to carry the gifts of bread and wine to the altar…it was already on the altar ahead of time. He could also go on “saying” the Mass while people began to approach the altar rail for Holy Communion, beginning right after the Pater Noster. However, except for the earliest Sunday Masses very few people went to communion. They had to fast from food and drink (including water) from the midnight before. They also were taught that they should go to confession the day before receiving communion just in case they had committed a mortal sin.

I am recalling all of this from memory. It was all a part of my Catholic childhood and continue almost into my mid-twenties. I forgot to mention that some of us purchased people’s “missals” which had english on one side of the page and latin on the other. These became popular as more people became literate. They used to have little pictures which showed what the priest was doing so you could follow along better. Did I mention that the prayers of the mass were spoken–for the most part–in a whisper. Remember, cognitive understanding of what is going on is not presumed by the Tridentine Rite.

By the early 1960’s there had been a world of change since the late 1500’s when the Mass was established in the form promulgated by Pius V. The Bishops responded to Pope John XXIII’s ecumenical council by starting a period of renewal (aggiornamento in Itialian) which began in 1963 with the Dogmatic Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy. The rest is history.
 
i just love this…until vat.ii, the terminology used was “the mass and the liturgy.” the liturgy consisted of the stations, vespers, benediction, etc. it was mandatory to attend mass, but not benediction. (unless you had sisters of mercy). at this day and age with “the mass” being refered to as “a discipline” , in this writers opinion, has contributed, not ungreatly,to losses of “the mystical dimension” of the mass.
modernists like to alter meanings and take things out of context to make points and justify their positions. tradition!!! what’s that.
many of those abuses that have been put in our churches were “condemned” by prior councils. it is hoped that no one in accusing the ancestors of the church of being “liars.”
have a good year. (alih)
p.s.malcolm…i must eat a little humble crow about pius x and the 1962 missal.
 
Poetry is one tool that helps you remember. And Latin is one of those languages where poetic sounds are easily expressed. English to some extent too but doesn’t “secundum magnam misericordiam tuam” sound much more poetic and given more thought than “according to your great mercy”?
Sorry, no, it doesn’t sound more poetic in latin, at least to me.
 
PATRIARCH OF ANTIOCH IS THE ACTUAL SUCCESSOR OF ST. PETER

From Bible We Know That Our Lord Has Given The Authority To

St.peter. Our Lord Says That He Will Build His Church On

Peter.
In The First Centuries, Bishop Of Antioch Was Superior To

All The Other Bishops In Rome And Alexandria. His Territory

Extended To All The Then Known Parts Of The World. Entire

Persia, India, Middle East, China Was Under The Control Of

Patriarch Of Antioch. If We Go Through The Historical

Documents He Was Regarded As The Succesor Of St. Peter. We

Can See Around 7 Letters Written By Ignatius, Bishop Of

Antioch To 7 Churches.
In The First Centuries There Was A Dispute Between Rome And

Antioch About The Successor Of Peter. If We Check The Bible,

There Is Nothing Said About The Authority Of Pope Or Rome.

Even You Check The Letter Of Paul To Romans. Nothing Is

Mentioned About The Primacy Of Roman Church.
There Is No Evidence That Peter Had Gone To Rome.
From Bible We Can Find That It Is Paul Who Had Founded The

Church Of Rome.
In The 4th And Fifth Centuries, Because Of The Influence Of

Byzantine Emperors, A New Patriarch Emerged At

Constantinople. Then The Emperor Tried To Destroy The Church

At Antioch. The Gave The Superiority To Patriarch Of

Constantinople.
In 1451, The Council Of Chalcedon Declared That The Pope Of

Rome Leo Is The Succesosr Of Peter And Head Of The Church.
After All These Events, In The 5th Century The Patriarch Of

Antioch Severus Was Deposed By The Byzantine Emperor. Those

Persons Who Accepted Pope Of Rome As The Head Were Appointed

As Bishops Of Antioch.
If We Check The Tradition And Liturgy Of Churches In India

And Middle East, We Can See That They Are Following

Antichene Tradition.
As A Result Proclaiming The Superiority Of Patriarch Of

Antioch, Jacob A Bishop Appointed Sergius Of Tella As The

Bishop Of Antioch. The Jacobite Patriarchs Then Came. They

Are The Actual Head Of The Christian Church.
We Must Know That These Europeans Are Actually Barbarians.

They Have No Culture. Now Also We Can See This. It Is Sure

That These Americans And Europeans Are Engahged In Sex With

Many People Even Before 13 Years Of Age. It Means That They

Have A Barbarian Tradition. But They Are Controllingt The

Economy Of The Whole World. They Are Propagating The Pope Of

Rome As Successor Of Peter. That Is Necessary For Their

Superiority And Existence Of Economic Power.
We Must Know The Fact That The Entire Middle East, Persia

Was Christian Before The 6 Th Century. They Were Under

Patriarch Of Antioch. Because Of Many Wars And Attack Of

Islam, Forceful Conversion By Islam Christianity In Middle

East, Persia Have Got Destroyed. The Patriarch Of Antioch

Was Under The Supervision Of Islamic Rulers.
The Colonial Invasion By British, Portugese , Dutch ,french

Resulted In The Forceful Conversion Of Those Who Were Under

The Control Of Patriarch Of Antioch To Roman Pope.
For Example, Portugese Forcefully Converted Christians Under

Antioch In India To Rome. French Forcefully Converted

Christians In Iraq Under Antioch To Roman Pope.
Through These 2000 Years It Is The Patriarch Of Antioch Who

Suffered Most. He Was In Caves Or Forests For Many Centuries

In Fear Of European Powers, Muslims, Byzantines.
If We Look At The History Of Roman Popes , Many Had

Children, Many Had Married, Many Had Children Before

Marriage, Many Became Popes At The Age Of 12 Or 13.
The Documents Now Qwe Have Proclaiming The Authority Of

Rome, Are All Fake. They Are False Documents Created During

The Reign Of Charlemagne, The 8 Th Century Roman Emperor Who

Saved Rome From Muslims.
The Reason Why All Are Proclaiming The Roman Pope Is Money

Only. The Roman Catholics Are Getting A Large Amount Money

From Europe. The Patriarch Of Anticoh Has Nothing.
In Short , The Patriarch Of Antioch Is The Successsor Of St.

Peter And Head Of The Church.
Now The Roman Pope Is Benedict 16. He Is One Of The Great

Persons Living In This World. He Is One Of The Great

Scholars In This Century. He Knows The Fact That Anticoh

Patriarch Is The Actual Head. From His Moves, We Have Got

The Perception That Something Will Take Place Soon. All The

Bishops And Historians In This World Know The Fact That

Patriarch Of Antioch Is The Peter’s Successor.

But Money Can Make A False True.
 
Philosophically speaking, there is a difference between “understanding” something and “remembering” it. If it doesn’t create an impression upon you, three years down the line it doesn’t make a difference whether you understood it or not in the first place.

Poetry is one tool that helps you remember. And Latin is one of those languages where poetic sounds are easily expressed. English to some extent too but doesn’t “secundum magnam misericordiam tuam” sound much more poetic and given more thought than “according to your great mercy”?
I know you like and can see the value of Latin in the liturgy (so do I), but I think someone might use the statement in your first paragraph as an argument the other way. I just wanted to say (and I’m not saying you feel otherwise) that I think it always “makes a difference” if you understand something (at whatever level) even if you don’t remember it later. At least at the time you understood and could glean meaning and enrichment. Frankly, lots of stuff I fully understand (some of which might be very important at the time) does not rate remembering next week, let alone three years later.

In the Mass, even if you only understand something just until you turn the page of the missal, in that moment you are assisting in the timeless sacrifice. (Hey, I think I just wrote a paradox! :D) Anyway, that grace is not negated by later possibly forgetting what the Latin said.
 
It wasn’t so much that there was a problem with the Latin Mass, but that there were things that they wanted to add to it. Pius XII was calling for the use of vernacular before Vatican II-- it was needed.

60. The use of the Latin language, customary in a considerable portion of the Church, is a manifest and beautiful sign of unity, as well as an effective antidote for any corruption of doctrinal truth. In spite of this, the use of the mother tongue in connection with several of the rites may be of much advantage to the people. But the Apostolic See alone is empowered to grant this permission. It is forbidden, therefore, to take any action whatever of this nature without having requested and obtained such consent, since the sacred liturgy, as We have said, is entirely subject to the discretion and approval of the Holy See.

Mediator Dei, Pope Pius XII, 1947.

Furthermore, he talked about accomidating the mass for different people.

108. Many of the faithful are unable to use the Roman missal even though it is written in the vernacular; nor are all capable of understanding correctly the liturgical rites and formulas. So varied and diverse are men’s talents and characters that it is impossible for all to be moved and attracted to the same extent by community prayers, hymns and liturgical services. Moreover, the needs and inclinations of all are not the same, nor are they always constant in the same individual. Who, then, would say, on account of such a prejudice, that all these Christians cannot participate in the Mass nor share its fruits? On the contrary, they can adopt some other method which proves easier for certain people; for instance, they can lovingly meditate on the mysteries of Jesus Christ or perform other exercises of piety or recite prayers which, though they differ from the sacred rites, are still essentially in harmony with them.

(Ibid.)

This is what Vatican II was doing, to some extent. It called for some minor changes in the liturgy-- such as the use of vernacular. It wasn’t that they suddenly realized that Christ spoke Aramaic, not Latin-- people always knew that. He was looking for a way to further accomidate man to understand more fully the liturgy.

However, it went much further than intended. The introduction of the Mass of Paul VI was an incorrect interpretation of Vatican II.
 
but doesn’t “secundum magnam misericordiam tuam” sound much more poetic and given more thought than “according to your great mercy”?

No.

They sound to me EXACTLY the same–because they are equivalent expressions.
 
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What was wrong with the Mass of St. Pius V?**

There was nothing wrong with it, but it did have certain “accretions” from the medieval Missals which modern liturgists dislike. Otherwise the TLM is basically the same as the ancient Roman Rite of the Gregorian Sacramentary.
 
For a time I was prisoner to opinions I read on the internet about Latin. Then, due to getting fired from the typical NO parish where I worked, I was liberated to begin attending Mass wherever I chose. I ended up at a Latin Novus Ordo Mass (and still attend that one 90% of the time).

This was my first experience with Latin (and a proper NO Mass!) and the confusion lasted about 3 months. Within a dozen Sunday Masses, following and understanding the Latin became easy for the propers. That was a good introduction. Over the last few years, the understanding the graduals has become easier and easier, and I don’t practice much outside of Mass.

So, I don’t concern myself with what others believe about the difficulties of Latin worship. I would need to attend the TLM much more often to become truly familiar with it, but it doesn’t seem impossible by any means, and I’m just an ignorant, uneducated lay-person.

As to what was “wrong” with the TLM? Apparently, according to the recent Popes, nothing.
 
but doesn’t “secundum magnam misericordiam tuam” sound much more poetic and given more thought than “according to your great mercy”?

No.

They sound to me EXACTLY the same–because they are equivalent expressions.
“Now is the winter of our discontent…” and “It was a bad winter” are equivalent expressions. Do they sound exactly the same?
 
I’ll say this. I would never have joined this Church if I could not understand what was being said in Mass. Why would I?
That’s a good point. A lot of people outside the Catholic Church were wary of it because they didn’t understand what was going on and they thought it looked like some sort of magical practice where the priest waves his arms around and says magical spells in Latin. Once one is Catholic, it’s much easier to understand what’s going on even with the Latin.

But the move to English made the Church much more accessable to outsiders. There are still people who are afraid of the Church, but at least we’re no longer seen as wizards.

❤️
 
That’s a good point. A lot of people outside the Catholic Church were wary of it because they didn’t understand what was going on and they thought it looked like some sort of magical practice where the priest waves his arms around and says magical spells in Latin. Once one is Catholic, it’s much easier to understand what’s going on even with the Latin.

But the move to English made the Church much more accessable to outsiders. There are still people who are afraid of the Church, but at least we’re no longer seen as wizards.

❤️
Except for the fact that there were a greater number of conversions with the traditional Latin Mass than there have been once we switched to the vernacular. Beauty attracts even if it is not fully understood at first.

Here is a perspective offered by Fr. George William Rutler in his book “A Crisis of Saints” (Ignatius Press). He is a Priest who is old enough to have experienced the liturgy both before and after the changes. The emphases in bold are mine:

A Liturgical Parable

The Hard Truth


…We seem to slip out of that golden sense of ultimate truth in two ways. The first is by losing any real awareness of the holy. The second is by denying that it has been lost. Without lapsing into cricitism that would be out of place, suffice it to say that the worship of holiness is weak in our culture, and the beauty of holiness has been smudged in transmission through the revised liturgy. For without impugning its objective authenticity in any degree, its *bouleversement *[Complete overthrow; a reversal; a turning upside down] of the traditional Roman rite marks the first time in history that the Church has been an agent, however unintentionally, in the deprivation of culture, from the uprooting of classical language and sensibility to wanton depreciation of the arts.

…It is immensely saddening to see so many elements of the Church, in her capacity as Mother of Western Culture, compliant in the promotion of ugliness. There may be no deterrent more formidable to countless potential converts than the low estate of the Church’s liturgical life, for the liturgy is the Church’s prime means of evangelism. Gone as into a primeval mist are the days not long ago when apologists regularly had to warn against being distracted by, or superficially attracted to, the beauty of the Church’s rites. And the plodding and static nature of the revised rites could not have been more ill-timed for a media culture so attuned to color and form and action.

(pp. 107-108)
 
Gone as into a primeval mist are the days not long ago when apologists regularly had to warn against being distracted by, or superficially attracted to, the beauty of the Church’s rites.
Apparently not. That’s why we have this whole forum: is TLM or NO more gratifying? 😉

❤️
 
Apparently not. That’s why we have this whole forum: is TLM or NO more gratifying? 😉

❤️
MariaGorettiGrl,

The book “A Crisis of Saints” was written before the Motu Proprio. I like to quote Fr. Rutler because he’s been a Priest both before and after the liturgical changes and so knows both sides of the equation. And the fact that there were more converts prior to the liturgical changes says something, even if some people say (usually a speculation) that they would not have converted if the Church was exclusively using the Old Mass.
 
“Now is the winter of our discontent…” and “It was a bad winter” are equivalent expressions. Do they sound exactly the same?
Just read your link. Ahhhh, Dietrich von Hildebrand, one of my heroes. “Do we better meet Christ by soaring up to Him, or by dragging Him down into our workaday world?” His quote in the article expresses it beautifully.
 
Just read your link. Ahhhh, Dietrich von Hildebrand, one of my heroes. “Do we better meet Christ by soaring up to Him, or by dragging Him down into our workaday world?” His quote in the article expresses it beautifully.
Yes, I consider Dietrich von Hildebrand one of the few writers that had a true sense of the liturgy and its purpose. He never failed to write outstandingly about it.
 
The book “A Crisis of Saints” was written before the Motu Proprio. I like to quote Fr. Rutler because he’s been a Priest both before and after the liturgical changes and so knows both sides of the equation. And the fact that there were more converts prior to the liturgical changes says something, even if some people say (usually a speculation) that they would not have converted if the Church was exclusively using the Old Mass.
Even before the MP, we had the debate about whether the TLM or NO was better. Hence Bishop Lefabvre and the SSPX church.

I’m pretty sure people know whether or not they would have converted to the church if it had been only in Latin. Just like when people say they would have left the church had it not been for the TLM. I can say if it rains, then I’m not going out shopping, and while it is only “speculation”, I know that I hate going out in the rain, so I won’t. It is much more likely flawed for a third party to speak about whether a person would convert or not.

❤️
 
But didn’t the same Holy Spirit guide the Council of Trent, which forbade the entire liturgy to be in the vernacular, for the canon to be said in a low tone, and even create a new rite for that matter? Nowhere did those documents have an expiration date.

Those documents protected by the Holy Spirit actually worked for 400 years before they decide to undermine them. Couldn’t someone then just as easily conclude that sometime in the 60’s they decided to defy the Holy Spirit instead of seeking His protection?
Actually, that’s not what Trent demanded, here is the actual Canon from the 22nd Session on the issue:
CANON IX.–If any one saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ; let him be anathema.
What is this saying? It anathematizes anyone who says the following:
  1. The canon and words of consecration spoken in a low tone is to be condemned.
  2. The mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only.
  3. Water ought not be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ.
It doesn’t say that the Canon and words of consecration may not be spoken aloud or that the Mass may not be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only. It only says that if one says, as a matter of faith, that these things MUST be done, then they are anathema.

Let’s bear in mind that the Church generally calls councils in order to deal with heresies that arise. The Protestant “Reformers” were condemning the Canon and words of consecration being spoken in a low tone, partially because of Luther’s sacramental theology (faith comes through hearing) and the Church needed to emphasize that the Sacraments operate through the working of the work (ex opere operato). Thus, the Consecration was said quietly to emphasize this. From my understanding, absolution was also given silently as well in Confession.
 
Even before the MP, we had the debate about whether the TLM or NO was better. Hence Bishop Lefabvre and the SSPX church.

I’m pretty sure people know whether or not they would have converted to the church if it had been only in Latin. Just like when people say they would have left the church had it not been for the TLM. I can say if it rains, then I’m not going out shopping, and while it is only “speculation”, I know that I hate going out in the rain, so I won’t. It is much more likely flawed for a third party to speak about whether a person would convert or not.

❤️
Well, the facts are that we’ve had far more conversions with the TLM than with the New Mass, so it’s not just speculation. Here is a statistic from Kevin Jones who wrote The Index of Leading Catholic Indicators:

“In 1965 there were 126,000 adult baptisms - converts - in 2002 there were 80,000.”

unavoce.org/articles/2003/interview_with_ken_jones.htm

Further, Fr. Rutler has been a parish Priest (most of the time in New York, I believe) so he has some idea of what is going on when it comes to conversions.

In fact, no I don’t think people can say that if they lived during the time of the TLM they would not have converted. If they were to walk into a beautiful church which had Gregorian chant and the old Latin Mass, who is to say they would not have been attracted by the beauty and reverence of it? Beauty is key because beauty attracts.
 
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