What were the post-Vatican II changes like to live through?

[otjm]

My mother died 5 years ago at the age of 97, and she was a regular attendee at daily Mass (driving about 12 miles to the parish) until she could no longer drive.

About 15 or 20 years before that, I asked her one day what she thought of Vatican 2. The words were hardly out of my mouth before she said "Oh! The Mass in English!’

She was born in 1917 in a rural farm community and the church was about 4 blocks distance from her house, and was one of 4 in her high school graduating class.

she never talked about rubrics (I have a doubt she knew what the word meant) and never discussed the changes from the EF to the OF; but she loved hearing the Mass in a language she could understand.

And she was the one who bought me, and my siblings, a missal when we could use one. In short, she loved following the prayers of the priest in English, rather than having to try to follow a language she could neither read nor speak.To say she was grateful is to make an understatement. It was not about obedience to the the Church; it was about worshiping more fully.

 

[PeterT]

One thing I don’t miss about post-Vatican II was the proliferation of awful art and hideous felt banners which for the most part used ugly colors and appeared to have been made by first graders. I occasionally see some banners around now but they seem to have gotten a LOT more professional and tasteful.

LOL

The church I go to still uses such banners, though not in ugly colors (the colors match the proper colors of the liturgical season or feast). And some of the felt banners were indeed made by first graders (along with 2nd, 3rd and 4th graders) who were enrolled in our CCD program at that time.

Some of the older banners though are now being replaced by more modern professionally printed ones with money donated by parishioners. All the felt ones were custom made “in house”.

 

[PeterT]

One day, I went to mass and there was a smaller altar in front of the high altar with a simple cloth with an edge. The priest faced the people and spoke in the vernacular. We were told this was coming. It was no surprise. We obeyed Holy Mother Church as we had always done.

Speaking generally, that time of transition was just that, a transition. What the Church established was not up for debate. But for reasons that were unclear at the time, things were gradually added that were secular in character. At one mass, Let it Be by the Beatles was sung. This was totally wrong in the House of God.

At around that time, at the Catholic Church I was attending. they used to sing “Bridge over Troubled Water” and “Where Have All The Flowers Gone” during Mass" and even though I was still a child back then, I thought it was a bit strange (and I was a big Simon & Garfunkel fan at that time too).

 

[Gilly_flower]

The introduction of the vernacular was greeted with a huge sense of welcome and relief by everyone I knew…as was the abolition of the requirement for women to wear hats. It was seen as a long overdue breath of fresh air and made a huge change for bored children fidgeting the hour away, and old ladies who attended Mass only to ignore it in favour of saying the rosary. It was like coming into the sunlight.

As for Humanae Vitae the mere fact that it was up for debate was enough for a great many Catholics to decide that change was coming and rather than wait they jumped the gun and followed their own consciences. For the first time in history the pill freed women from the fear of unwanted pregnancy so when the Pope eventually decided - against the wishes of his advisors - to ban it there was a huge sense of anger and betrayal, and women decided that so intimate a question about what was best for their own health and families was a decision best left to them.

A great many priests of agreed with them and spoke out publicly against the ban, urging the supremacy of conscience. Today the ban on contraception is a battle long lost and is something of an elephant in the room. But half a century on I do not believe many women will ever want to return to the days of Vatican roulette.

But one of the most surprising things for me, as a schoolgirl was returning to school to find our nuns had changed their habits from the full Mediaeval rig out of starched coif, wimple and floor length gowns to a simple pinafore dress and short veil. They also abandoned the differentiation between choir nuns and lay sisters, previously addressed as a Mother and Sister, and were henceforth all “Sister”.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

This is what it seems to be to me. There is a parish nearby that is really really stuck in the 1970s. Many of our songs in mass have a very hippy 60s folky vibe to them that I am sure baby boomers love but us millennials just do not care for.

Interesting you should say that. I was born in 1971 and I have the impression my generation was quite picky about music when we were young, and we only became more open minded with age, Whereas when i see the stuff my kids listen to it seems to be much broader, including a lot of old and retro stuff which really surprises me.

When I was young I thought guitar music in church was cool, but since then I’ve drifted more towards more traditional music, not that I don’t still appreciate a bit of guitar here or there. My kids don’t care for the guitar much.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It was my grandfather, and we were being entirely serious. I’ll grant that it was odd. But given the time, the man’s story was entirely believable. There were some serious iconoclasts in the American Church at the time. Still are, really.

 

[Vico]

…

1955 through 1969 were many changes. As an altar server I began with Latin and then we switched to English for all but the canon, then finally the English canon. This was all before the 1970 Mass. Communion changed from the priest saying the prayer when we received, kneeling at the altar rail, to us saying Amen.

Standing was already in use and helpful for large congregations. (This was documented in Eucharisticum Mysterium May, 25, 1967. Item 34.)

• Pope Pius XII in 1955. (Includes revised Holy Week and calendar changes)
• Pope John XXIII in 1962. (Approved for E.F. Pope Benedict XVI - 2007)
• (Vatican II 1962-1965)
• Orders for Missal changes March 1965 (vernacular, option to face congregation).
• Communion under both kinds 1965.
• Second instruction 1967 (English canon, simpler rubrics)
• Additional Eucharistic Prayers (canon or anaphora) 1968

 

[Dovekin]

I would like to know what the accusers have said that is heretical, or for that matter, what they have said or done for which they could be excommunicated.

They have accused the Pope of heresy. People have been excommunicated for far less than that. If you want a doctrinal basis, look at the Jansenist or Donatists.

We have not really addressed specific doctrinal issues here. We started looking at an insightful comment you made:

There is always room for further and deeper study, analysis, and asking questions. That’s how doctrine develops and we come to a more profound understanding of it. But that is not the same thing as declaring that the Church is wrong when she teaches doctrines of faith and morals.

Your second category struck me as similar to “declaring that the Pope is wrong when he teaches doctrines.” I was curious if you saw the analogy. If you don’t, that is fine. I am not trying to convict anyone of heresy, just curious about the standards you presented.

One of the notable changes during Vatican 2, to get back on topic, was the shift away from anathemas and accusations to dialogue, based on St Paul VI’s brilliant teaching. Other than liturgy, ecumenism was the most visible change. People became interested in “further and deeper analysis … to a more profound understanding.”

 

[edwest211]

It is always about obedience to the Church. My mother was raised on a farm and spoke multiple languages. The hatred of Latin by some is obvious. After the change was instituted, Church attendance went down.

Catholics' Church Attendance Resumes Downward Slide

 

[MiserereMei25]

But aren’t those things what makes our temples stand out from other houses of worship?

 

[edwest211]

False freedom. Slavery to the flesh. Lies and deception. Humanae Vitae was never up for debate. Dissidents and sexual perverts started a loud non-discussion. Going against Pope Paul VI was a huge mistake. No priests agreed with women. In seminaries in the 1970s, they too were misled. They were taught Humanae Vitae but they were also told the Church would or might change its teaching about artificial contraception. They were lied to. Later, as priests, whenever a parishioner asked them about contraception, they told them it was a personal conscience matter.

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

It was great.
As a boy growing up in the Catholic Church, I never embraced Latin.
As I did to speak Latin, it was hard for me to follow.
One side of my Sunday Missal had everything in Latin, while the other side had everything in English. I found myself glancing back and forth during Mass.
It was great to have the Mass celebrated totally in English for the first time. That was a blessing!

 

[Lea101]

According to my grandmother, she didn’t mind it. She felt it was easier to follow since she didn’t have much education and she didn’t understand Latin. She liked that she could attend Mass in her native language.

However, she (like many older women in our culture) continued to veil/cover her head.

She said her peers didn’t really bother with the changes. No strong opinions. We didn’t live in the US, though so maybe the changes affected differently depending on the location?

 

[edwest211]

There is no reason to believe that.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

No reason to believe what?

 

[OraLabora]

They also abandoned the differentiation between choir nuns and lay sisters, previously addressed as a Mother and Sister, and were henceforth all “Sister”.

This was an important and welcome change that came out of Vatican II. Religious orders were called to return to the Rule of their founders. In the case of the Benedictines, which I am familiar with, Saint Benedict never made a distinction between lay and choir monks. They were all equal except for the much fewer number of priests, and then, only for service at the altar. Even Saint Benedict himself was not a priest. Eventually creeping clericalism resulted in only priests, or priests-to-be being in choir.

She was born in 1917 in a rural farm community and the church was about 4 blocks distance from her house, and was one of 4 in her high school graduating class.

she never talked about rubrics (I have a doubt she knew what the word meant) and never discussed the changes from the EF to the OF; but she loved hearing the Mass in a language she could understand.

My mother was almost the same age, born in 1918 and died in 2001. Her experience was similar to yours. She loved the Mass in French, and never gave a second thought to “rubrics”. Whatever changes came along were fine with her.

After the change was instituted, Church attendance went down.

Correlation does not equal causation. I abandoned my faith in 1975, for 22 years. I can assure you the liturgy had absolutely zero to do with it. Nor did it when I came back in 1997. I know a lot of people that left. Liturgy had nothing to do with any of them, but a liberalizing of society in general most certainly influenced them away from the Church. Humanae Vitae was a bit turning point for many folks.

 

[edwest211]

Humanae Vitiae was attacked within 24 hours of publication. It is referred to as “an event unprecedented in the history of the church.”

The overthrow of authority was job one, beginning in the mid-1960s. I saw the replacements for mom, dad and the Church. They didn’t say it in so many words, but this is what was always meant, to this day: “Don’t listen to them, listen to us.”

And things are better today? Far from it. Were things perfect in the past? No. But there was a system in place that worked most of the time. The strangers gave no one utopia.

 

[otjm]

You really need to stop insinuating that others who have had a different experience than you are implied liars.

 

[maryjk]

I was born during the years you are asking about. But I have spoken to my mother, pretty extensively about it.

I do know that she hated the idea of having to wear something covering her head, for Mass. As she said, she always looked horrible in a hat and when she was younger, she would forget a hat and end up with a tissue on her head for Mass. She called it ridiculous.

On the other hand, her mother, my grandmother, died during that time. She asked, before her death, that her funeral Mass be done in Latin. The priest would not do it. (Later we all wondered if maybe he just didn’t know the Latin.)

My mom didn’t seem to miss the TLM at all, and she never, to me, expressed any interest in attending a TLM. She was very happy with the OF and seemed to embrace it totally.

My mom and dad were some of those people that left the Church during the 70’s. But it had nothing to do with the change in the Mass or any changes in teachings. . It had everything to do with a priest telling my mother that having a hysterectomy without permission from the Church was going to send her to Hell. That her job on earth was to produce children, and it didn’t matter if it killed her. All that because she asked a priest, in passing, for a blessing before her surgery. Crazy.

 

[edwest211]

Assuming is bad. Here’s someone who clearly explained his experience.

"In the first place, there is the fear that the document detracts from the authority of the Second Vatican Council, one of whose essential decisions – the liturgical reform – is being called into question.

"This fear is unfounded. In this regard, it must first be said that the Missal published by Paul VI and then republished in two subsequent editions by John Paul II, obviously is and continues to be the normal Form – the Forma ordinaria – of the Eucharistic Liturgy. The last version of the Missale Romanum prior to the Council, which was published with the authority of Pope John XXIII in 1962 and used during the Council, will now be able to be used as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgical celebration. It is not appropriate to speak of these two versions of the Roman Missal as if they were “two Rites”. Rather, it is a matter of a twofold use of one and the same rite.

“As for the use of the 1962 Missal as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgy of the Mass, I would like to draw attention to the fact that this Missal was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted. At the time of the introduction of the new Missal, it did not seem necessary to issue specific norms for the possible use of the earlier Missal. Probably it was thought that it would be a matter of a few individual cases which would be resolved, case by case, on the local level. Afterwards, however, it soon became apparent that a good number of people remained strongly attached to this usage of the Roman Rite, which had been familiar to them from childhood. This was especially the case in countries where the liturgical movement had provided many people with a notable liturgical formation and a deep, personal familiarity with the earlier Form of the liturgical celebration. We all know that, in the movement led by Archbishop Lefebvre, fidelity to the old Missal became an external mark of identity; the reasons for the break which arose over this, however, were at a deeper level. Many people who clearly accepted the binding character of the Second Vatican Council, and were faithful to the Pope and the Bishops, nonetheless also desired to recover the form of the sacred liturgy that was dear to them. This occurred above all because in many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear. I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church.”

• Pope Benedict